Male immaturity?

[nc0gnet0]

At what age would you expect the male to be fully mature and capable of successful breeding?

I have a beutiful 6"+ male alanquer cross from Kenny that I am attempting to breed to a red turk/scribble. The pair are perfectly comfortable with each other and a model pair, however he seems a bit lacksadaisicle in his spawning runs. She is an egg laying machine, producing eggs every 6 days like clock work. Their last attempt did produce about 4-6 wigglers, so they are a confirmed pair. That time I choose to remove the screen before they went free swimming, as it seemed to small a brood to bother with. As expected, they ate the eggs and wigglers and promptly went about another spawn.

However, once again, the majority of the eggs have turned white again (this is day three of the eggs), and I have egg fungus (hardly noticable almost see through).

My water parameters are as follows:

PH 6.8-7.0
TDS 30-35
Ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0

I even caught them just prior to the act and turned the sponge filter down to about one bubble a second and the airstone off during the spawn and only turned it back up about an hour afterwards. Other than adding some meth blue to the water next time around is there anything else I should try? How old would you guestimate a 6+ inch male to be? Is this just a maturity issue with the male?

[Moon]

Some breeds mature when they are about a year old. Some types like reds take a little longer. My advice is to be patient. The male will get it eventually.
You could always try a Porno movie (lol).

[Sivasama]

I have the same problem. Eggs look great into day 2, but by the end only abbot 10% look good and then by the time they are wigglers I end up with 6 to 12 fish. I have been raising the first 8 to see if I could do it...and to see how the fish would turn out. My water is about the same as your water. My male is closer to 2 years old at best guess. My remaining hatch today from last spawn is 4 wigglers. Kind of frustrating. Raising 8 fry is not easy. The food portioning is really tough when they are small. I guess I will just keep at it and hope they do better soon.

Travis

[jimg]

I've heard from time to time some breeders won't bother breeding until the pairs are 2 years old. I have a perfect male and female leopard pair, she has raised fry with other males, but with him only 4 or so fry then they get eaten. This is almost 2 years now.
Then I have icca reds that are on their 4th batch of fry and only about a year old.
I have also tried lowering the water to your parameters and no change.
I am sure, as mentioned in earlier posts, about juiced up leopards,may effect breeding too.

[Sivasama]

I tried methyl blue on my last batch and it worked. Most of the eggs hatched. So I guess it wasn't the male after all.

Travis

[nc0gnet0]

I tried methyl blue on my last batch and it worked. Most of the eggs hatched. So I guess it wasn't the male after all.

Travis

How much meth blue and was the treatment everyday or only one day? Did you leave the sponge filter in the tank and how did it effect your bio?

[Sivasama]

I did about a half dose. Don't freak out as it turns the water a very dark blue. The parents got very nervous and dad actually jumped out of the tank. I did very small water changes, just getting the poo off of the bottom and fed just a small amount of food twice a day until the eggs hatched. I started to do bigger water changes to get the blue color a lighter color so the fry would be able to see to attach. My parents are light colored and the fry have a hard time seeing them. I didn't add any more MB through this. I still had some fungus but most of the fry hatched. My female is kind of small so they don't have a lot of eggs to begin with. This has given me a viable hatch of 50 to 60 fry. I used to breed angel fish. I would remove the eggs and put them in MB with a heater and a slow trickle of a bubble every few seconds to fan the eggs. If you want to see if your eggs are good you could try this too. Oh, I put the MB in a few minutes after they stopped doing passes on the cone. They will stop making passes and start fanning the eggs. This is when you want to do the MB. I don't know the effects of waiting longer to add the MB? I had always thought the eggs looked healthy even on day 2. My water is mostly RO but there must be something bad in the tiny amount of tap that I use that causes the fungus. I hope you end up with the same results if you try this.

Travis

[Sivasama]

Feel free to pm me if you have any other questions. I'm a noobie at this. This is only my second batch but I have learned a lot on the first batch and will gladly share what I know.

[nc0gnet0]

Well I gave meth blue a shot.....this was the result:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/wig2.jpg?t=1285117160

[Eddie]

Nice! Arent they both Albinos? The fry don't even look like Albino fry. Maybe they are just stained from the Meth Blue. :o

[nc0gnet0]

Ogon yellow/white and a ARSG.....so I believe they should both be albino's...let see if they make it to free swimming......less than a day to go!

[Eddie]

Ogon yellow/white and a ARSG.....so I believe they should both be albino's...let see if they make it to free swimming......less than a day to go!


Oh okay, that makes sense. They are non albino, Ogon Yellow Whites are white based. Crossing these young (Albino Intermediates) will give you a small percentage of Albinos.

[nc0gnet0]

If I understand things correctly this whole batch should carry the albino gene and be intermediates (according to Kenny). I am wondering if I will have attachment issues as this is my first batch of fry (other than a few odd wigglers).

I also have one of Kenny's alenquer cross's (solid) and a brown based red turk sitting on a batch of eggs as well. To date they have only managed a few wigglers on two spawns, but this will be my first time using meth blue with them as well.

I am hoping that if the second pair is succesfull and I have attachment issues with the first, I might be able to foster some of the intermediates with the Alenquer/Turq.

[Eddie]

If I understand things correctly this whole batch should carry the albino gene and be intermediates (according to Kenny). I am wondering if I will have attachment issues as this is my first batch of fry (other than a few odd wigglers).

I also have one of Kenny's alenquer cross's (solid) and a brown based red turk sitting on a batch of eggs as well. To date they have only managed a few wigglers on two spawns, but this will be my first time using meth blue with them as well.

I am hoping that if the second pair is succesfull and I have attachment issues with the first, I might be able to foster some of the intermediates with the Alenquer/Turq.


Yup, that is correct. I don't think you will have attachment issues but yes, fostering to the other pair might be an option. I wouldn't jump to that option quickly though. I would really try to let the ARSG X OYW become good parents on their own until failure. They will have another spawn. Plus, fostering is generally done with a mature/good pair. If the AC X RT pair are still new, they may not be ready for the additional work.

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Yup I agree, even if I was to try the fostering route, it would only be with a small percentage of the fry.

[nc0gnet0]

I should add, I think my female is OCD.......as the eggs hatched she would move the fry from one side of the pyramid to another adjacent face that didn't have eggs. At first I couldn't figure it out, I thought she was eating the fry as they hatched (the side she was moving them too was shielded from my view). Then I noticed the male spending considerable attention to the one side (that didn't have eggs) and pealed back the aquarium background and seen what is in the photograph...a pleasent suprise.

[Eddie]

I should add, I think my female is OCD.......as the eggs hatched she would move the fry from one side of the pyramid to another adjacent face that didn't have eggs. At first I couldn't figure it out, I thought she was eating the fry as they hatched (the side she was moving them too was shielded from my view). Then I noticed the male spending considerable attention to the one side (that didn't have eggs) and pealed back the aquarium background and seen what is in the photograph...a pleasent suprise.


They like to move them around, especially when they still can.

[nc0gnet0]

6 am and I am starting to get a few free swimmers.......I can see one has made a jail break and is now on the front glass. this particular fry is pure white..almost transparent except for the tiny eyes. As the others start to venture from the cone, mom grabs them and trys to put them back.

I turned off the canister filter and removed the intake hose from the tank (luckily I also have a sponge filter in there). How long should I wait before I start to lower the water level? Bear in mind this is not your typical breeding tank, (it was actually a bit of an after thought), as it is a 55 gallon hex. I am hoping that due to the fact its footprint isn't much larger than your typical 29-30 gallon breeder, I can just remove 40-50% of the water if need be.

[nc0gnet0]

Ok, the little buggers are everywhere now. Decided to lower the water in the 55 gallon to about the 3/5 level. I had a bunch of free swimmers at the surface and no mom and dad can see them. At this point only a handfull have attached, all to mom (the ogon yellow). On the plus side both male and female are co-operating and trying to keep them on the cone, but it is becoming useless....they spit on on the cone and two leave, meanwhile a bunch are in various places within the tank.

How long does it take for the majority to attach?

[Sivasama]

Glad the mb worked for you like it did me. It can take most of the day for good attachment. If they hook onto your sponge you may have to take it out until they found the parents. I just set mine in another tank that I knew was clean. They attached within the hour. I put it back in. That's really exciting! I'm happy for you.

Travis

[Tofe]

I am having similar issues with unfertile eggs with my prs but have not tried methyl blue. What did the mb do to allow the eggs to be fertile? I thought that if the eggs are healthy and fertilized, fungus would not affect them. I would be interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

Brian

[Eddie]

I am having similar issues with unfertile eggs with my prs but have not tried methyl blue. What did the mb do to allow the eggs to be fertile? I thought that if the eggs are healthy and fertilized, fungus would not affect them. I would be interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

Brian

MB won't make the eggs fertile, its a prevention for fungus.

[nc0gnet0]

MB won't make the eggs fertile, its a prevention for fungus.

+1

I have read two schools of thought in other threads on whether or not fungus will effect healthy fertilized eggs. Some people are of the opinion that egg fungus will not effect healthy fertilized eggs, while others beleive that while in fact it will start on the unfertilized eggs it will in fact "attack" the fertilized ones as well and have a negative impact on them.

After having tried meth blue on two batches of eggs from two different pairs in two different tanks and having a huge turn around in success on both batches, I have to beleive I would find myself leaning towards the second school of thought on this one.

I should also add that prior to this spawn I tried some maroxy, and while the eggs didn't fungus nearly as quickly, still none hatched. Some people beleive that not only does meth blue prevent egg fungus, but beleive it aids in oxygen transport through the egg wall.......possibly?

I do need to add that my expierment on two batches of eggs from two different pairs is far from conclusive, as I changed two variables, not just one. I did start feeding some of Andrew's Pro-More to both batches prior to spawn. The first batch only got two feedings before they spawned, while the second pair got it added to thier food for nearly a week.

[Tofe]

I know that the mb will not make the eggs fertile but I was wondering what the mb does to help the process along. I know the mb is used to fight fungus but as you mentioned I heard the same thing that fertilized eggs will not be harmed by fungus on nonfertile eggs. What is the dosage of mb/gal are you using?

Brian

[nc0gnet0]

I did it this way. I waited until 6 hours after spawn (approx). I then screened the eggs. Then I began my 50% water change. After I had drained the water down 50% and before adding the fresh water, I dosed per recomendations on the bottle for the amount of water still left in the tank. I have a 30 gallon tank, so I had 15 gallons left in the tank. Dosage per instructions is 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. So I put in 1 1/4 teaspoons (just a tad under recomendation). I then proceeded to fill the tank with fresh water making totall dosage a little less than 50%. I only added it once, and it lightened up with each following water change.

[doramide7]

I did about a half dose. Don't freak out as it turns the water a very dark blue. The parents got very nervous and dad actually jumped out of the tank. I did very small water changes, just getting the poo off of the bottom and fed just a small amount of food twice a day until the eggs hatched. I started to do bigger water changes to get the blue color a lighter color so the fry would be able to see to attach. My parents are light colored and the fry have a hard time seeing them. I didn't add any more MB through this. I still had some fungus but most of the fry hatched. My female is kind of small so they don't have a lot of eggs to begin with. This has given me a viable hatch of 50 to 60 fry. I used to breed angel fish. I would remove the eggs and put them in MB with a heater and a slow trickle of a bubble every few seconds to fan the eggs. If you want to see if your eggs are good you could try this too. Oh, I put the MB in a few minutes after they stopped doing passes on the cone. They will stop making passes and start fanning the eggs. This is when you want to do the MB. I don't know the effects of waiting longer to add the MB? I had always thought the eggs looked healthy even on day 2. My water is mostly RO but there must be something bad in the tiny amount of tap that I use that causes the fungus. I hope you end up with the same results if you try this.

Travis
Feel free to pm me if you have any other questions. I'm a noobie at this. This is only my second batch but I have learned a lot on the first batch and will gladly share what I know.

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