Discus at death's door?

[Tinuviel]

I am a new discus owner, but have had both freshwater and salt aquariums for over a decade.

I have a brand new tank setup.
Used ro water, live mix of plants lake rocks and sand as substrate. Set up aquarium 72 hours in advance. Used Stability starter fluid. Temp 82-86, nitrites, nitrates, chlorine all zero, water very soft, alkalinity low. After day one found him canted sideways near bottom hiding in the corner then later sleeping at the surface. Ran water to lfs for testing and found high ph of 7.2+ (he came in from 6.5)

Came home and did .25 water change to slowly bring down ph to 7.0 planning to slowly keep inching it down, he immediately responded and stopped acting like he had swim bladder issues. Few hours later found him even worse then before and that ph had climbed. Realized lake rocks were raising ph and removed them, did another .25 water change and ph dropped to 6.8

He stopped sleeping but remained at bottom of tank. Continued slow water changes with ph decreaser. At 6.6 began a run of maracyn and have continued with the starter fluid.

He began breathing out of one gill but stopped after second dose of maracyn. Have seen him eating and occaisionally roaming tank but is still very lethargic and extremely thin. Gave third dose a maracyn this evening with .25 water change and raised temp to 87.

Would have posted sooner but had to wait for site approval.

I would really appreciate any tips to keep from loosing him at this point. I feel like he might make it. Please help!

[Tinuviel]

Fyi he is the only fish in the tank, tank raised, four inches and maybe leopard snakeskin mix? Blue sheen red spots, and black stripes (at least he has stripes when hes not telling me how pissed he is that I almost killed him with my stupid rocks).

Also using peat, carbon, and zeolite in the substrate. Sponge filtration.

[Eddie]

First off, why are you using RO water?

Even if the original PH was 6.8 and went up to 7.5, that wouldn't be a problem at all. Fish can tolerate PH swings up, just not down. And you seem to be bringing it down using RO and a PH decreaser. Stop using the PH decreaser, it's useless in a discus aquarium. And RO is also not required unless you are breeding or have extremely hard tap water.

Do you have any air in the tank, like an airstone? Also, you must have something in the tank that is driving your PH up.

Second, there was no need to medicate and Maracyn is Erthromycin which treats gram positive bacteria infections. Gram positive infections are not common in aquarium fish at all.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Fyi he is the only fish in the tank, tank raised, four inches and maybe leopard snakeskin mix? Blue sheen red spots, and black stripes (at least he has stripes when hes not telling me how pissed he is that I almost killed him with my stupid rocks).

Also using peat, carbon, and zeolite in the substrate. Sponge filtration.

Peat+RO+PH Decreaser= highly unstable water

Discus require stable/consistent water parameters at all times, even with water changes. Everything should match.

[Tinuviel]

The cause of the ph increase was the lake rocks which have been removed. The ph decreaser was used twice to help bring ph down and was diluted in water prior to water change not added directly to tank.

His symptoms seem to stem from the initial ph shock but dosing with maracyn in case he did have swim bladder or another underlying bacterial issue. It was recommended my the lfs where i bought him and he seems to perk up after each dose. (one per day).

Have never had issue with using peat in the substrate as i have dutch/planted aquariums, havent seen it cause instability or issues and usually keeps ph low and even. I use ro water for the plants and to avoid chlorine and hard water issues. Havent had any stability problems with it either.

The tank is now stable for 24hours at 6.5ph and 87 degrees. Does any one have ideas for helping him bounce back? Thats my biggest concern at this point.

[Eddie]

Yup, get your water sorted out. Erythromycin doesn't treat swim bladder. It will kill any biofiltration you have going. The LFS is in the market to sell you products. One good rule with water alterations and keeping discus, you will do more with less. Also, you don't need any peat and if you are using carbon, it actually removes the tannins.

[jimg]

stability does not work. use dr tims one and only or tetra safestart. they work about 70% of the time at best.
I would lower temp to 84.
add airstone

[Tinuviel]

Thanks jimgalb, i will pick up an air stone and check out the starters you mentioned. I plan to lower the temp slowly in a day or two when his immune system is back up and hes less suseptible to parasites, thats a headache i dont need.

Eddie: maracyn: Maracyn does not color the water and will not interfere with the biological filter.Maracyn is primarily effective against gram-positive pathogenic microorganisms. Symptoms of clamped fins, swollen eyes, heavy or rapid breathing, patchy coloration, change in swimming behavior or corner hiding can be signs of possible bacterial infection. All suspected bacterial infections should be treated immediately. (mardel site)

And the lfs isnt always trying to just hawk stuff, sometimes they even know a thing or two about fish. ;) (petsmart/petco not included!)

[Eddie]

Thanks jimgalb, i will pick up an air stone and check out the starters you mentioned.

Eddie: maracyn: Maracyn does not color the water and will not interfere with the biological filter.Maracyn is primarily effective against gram-positive pathogenic microorganisms. Symptoms of clamped fins, swollen eyes, heavy or rapid breathing, patchy coloration, change in swimming behavior or corner hiding can be signs of possible bacterial infection. All suspected bacterial infections should be treated immediately. (mardel site)

And the lfs isnt always trying to just hawk stuff, sometimes they even know a thing or two about fish. ;) (petsmart/petco not included!)
I know what Erythromycin (Maracyn) treats. And it WILL kill your bio, regardless of your information from the API website.


Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed. Erythromycin is not FDA-approved for use with food fish.


http://if-srvv-edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084


Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. But good luck anyways!

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

not to mention you have activated carbon while doing treatment? Zeolite in the substrate?

[Love Discus]

There are A TON of fish medications that are designed to kill fish. Just read some of the instructions, and dosing. Your antibiotic for example: Api says it will not affect bio filter.. LIE. it also says to treat any suspected fish. That to me says "buy our product, use it on any fish, anytime, use lots of it, and buy more.

I saw some antibiotic at petsmart the other day that said. "for heavy breathing and foggy eyes" in my experience heavy breating and foggy eyes are due to one of the following, low oxygen, ammonia, nitrite, or chlorine. Just bad water in general. so tell me what is an antibiotic going to do for any of the above? IDK I stick to water changes. I have never had any problem that needed meds except for mild cases white/salt spot because of temperature swings. Also gill flukes.

IDK maybe Im just lucky, thats my two cents, and I am by no means an expert, however I know alot more than any LFS employee in my area!

[aalbina]

I'm pretty new here but I've been here long enough to know that if Eddie told me that standing on my head while reciting the pledge of allegiance in front of my tank would help my fish - I would probably do it.... just saying.

;)

[Jennie]

LMAO:D I'm behind you on that one!:D:D:D:D
I just refer to him as Dr Eddie now.


I'm pretty new here but I've been here long enough to know that if Eddie told me that standing on my head while reciting the pledge of allegiance in front of my tank would help my fish - I would probably do it.... just saying.

;)

[Eddie]

LOL, you guys are funny.

Guess its as they say, you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink. :o

[lpiasente]

I'm pretty new here but I've been here long enough to know that if Eddie told me that standing on my head while reciting the pledge of allegiance in front of my tank would help my fish - I would probably do it.... just saying.

;)

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 1111111111111111111111111111111

[Tinuviel]

Just wanted to post an update and thank jimgalb for the great advice. The bubbler made all the difference in the world. He is bright and healthy and eating like a pig. I'm continually amazed at how inquisitive he is. The extra aeration seemed to be the key piece to making him comfortable and with the higher temps it's not a negative for the plants like it would have been in my previous tanks.

For others on this site gotta say, more helpful ideas and less sycophantic derogatory remarks would be beneficial to newcomers. I came to a discus forum for ideas not abash the newby/ love Eddie forum. For Eddie in particular, g a l.

[jimg]

glad to hear it worked out!

[Jennie]

I can't see a post on here where Eddie wasn't being helpful. I did see a difference of opinion between his beliefs and yours concerning the API site, but thought that it was cordial. So I googled the med in question and based on actual experiences from others, it does seem to affect the biofilter.

[aalbina]

For others on this site gotta say, more helpful ideas and less sycophantic derogatory remarks would be beneficial to newcomers. I came to a discus forum for ideas not abash the newby/ love Eddie forum. For Eddie in particular, g a l.

Tinuviel - let me apologize if you felt that my message was derogatory, it was not intended in that spirit. I can see how choosing that particular time to make a joke, while you're already in a stressful place, was a bad judgment call on my part. I will try to be more aware of the situation and keep my sense of humor in check when it is likely to be misinterpreted by fellow forum member who is clearly not in the same state of mind as I am in a given moment.

Perhaps if I had just said: "In my experience here, Eddie's advice is usually correct - and I recommend that you follow it." That would have been more helpful than the unfortunate manner I chose to relay exactly that message.

As it turns out - in the first response to your request, Eddie asked about air in the tank 7 minutes after your initial request for help....

Glad everything turned out alright and I hope you will continue here as a forum member. I also hope that you too will realize that your last words were unnecessarily harsh and post an apology like I did. There is a difference in being sycophantic and being honest - in my case, the latter was the driver behind my comments not the former.

Adam

[Eddie Wells]

Tinuviel - let me apologize if you felt that my message was derogatory, it was not intended in that spirit. I can see how choosing that particular time to make a joke, while you're already in a stressful place, was a bad judgment call on my part. I will try to be more aware of the situation and keep my sense of humor in check when it is likely to be misinterpreted by fellow forum member who is clearly not in the same state of mind as I am in a given moment.

Perhaps if I had just said: "In my experience here, Eddie's advice is usually correct - and I recommend that you follow it." That would have been more helpful than the unfortunate manner I chose to relay exactly that message.

As it turns out - in the first response to your request, Eddie asked about air in the tank 7 minutes after your initial request for help....

Glad everything turned out alright and I hope you will continue here as a forum member. I also hope that you too will realize that your last words were unnecessarily harsh and post an apology like I did. There is a difference in being sycophantic and being honest - in my case, the latter was the driver behind my comments not the former.

Adam


I agree with your post 100% Adam !!!! But I don't think you have anything to apologize for ! As far as Tinuviel suggesting Eddie to g a l that's just plain rude and I'm finished with this thread.

Eddie Wells

[Tinuviel]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the note, and likewise I apologize for being inappropriate. Having read other threads as well, I am frustrated to see that other newcomers are getting the more down putting "you're doing it wrong!" message as well (like the hard working nurse being made to feel guilty for not doing the water change right after work). Everyone has different experience with tanks and opinions based on it (like ro/di water versus tap and dechlorinators or how much water to change 50% versus 10-25%).

I think it's important when people come here seeking help, that even those of us who may have lots of experience keep in mind that there is always more to learn. And comments like "leading a horse to water" or castigating our lfs and so on, particularly when one is coping with a sick pet, are never helpful and nearly always hurtful.

Despite his initial setbacks my discus is an amazing fish. And although people love to talk about how hard discus are to keep, some of this is quite likely a product of the pride in keeping such a dreaded creature! :) the more research and forums I'm plowing through are all suggesting that, while particular about params, these fish are resilient guys in the end. Best of luck to all new discus owners like me, and i gotta say, their personality once they bounce back and eat out of your hand and swim over to watch the tv....just unbelievable!

[Eddie]

Do you have any air in the tank, like an airstone? Also, you must have something in the tank that is driving your PH up.


Eddie


Just quoting my first message. LOL