Origin of High Body Strains

[vss]

I'm a high-body lover, but the origin of those high body strains, such as altum floras and blue knights, always remains a mystery to me. In an article I read it says they came from some high-body giant wild caught discus, and Manfred Gobel in Germany first retained this trait by crossing them with other strains. I kind of doubt it because even nowadays when the wild discus are captured much more extensively than the old days, we don't see high body ones (when I say high body, I mean those really "high" ones instead of just round and large). Can anybody share some more information if possible? Thanks!

Another thing is that we know many breeders have been trying hard to add the high-body trait to different strains since quite a long time ago. But up to now the number of real and stable high body strains are still very limited somehow...and the majority are turqs in general like solid blue turqs and striated turqs. Is it because high body fish are hard to breed, or the high body trait is difficult to pass down?

-Xiaofei :)

[Eddie]

Xiaofei

I remember seeing OLD school german blue turqs that look like Blue Knights. I'll try to find the link to them. I wonder if Wayne used those lines to make his blue knights.

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

That characteristic obviously varies in wild fish, and it's not surprising that that breeders would seek to continue and enhance it in their offerings. It's not a mutation like albinos or goldens, more of a trait, so it seems unlikely that domestic discus acquired it from a single individual or very small group of individuals as with snakeskins.

I'd think roundness would be a trait desirable to any breeder, and that fish who exhibit that to an extreme degree were probably bred to establish something unique for the marketplace. "New and different" sells.

I like my AF crosses obtained from Kenny- nice and round. Rob's favorite among them is actually a little taller than it is long. To my eye, AF in general retain nice proportions.

Somewhere in the transition to bulldogs I lose that sense of proportion, find them rather unattractive. Blue Knights straddle that line for me- some are nice, some are too much. Even though I really favor blues and *large* discus, I've shied away from them for that reason...

[kaceyo]

I've also seen some very hi-bodied wilds here and there so the traite is readily available in nature. I read a similar article, or maybe the same article Xiaofei, and remember it mentioning the giant blues. I belive they were said to be more of a light grey than blue, were huge, and were found in only one small tributary.
Andrew soh has a theory about the origins of bulldog discus. He says they are the result of a bacterial infection in the spine of discus that results in a deformity. I personaly don't agree with this theory, but it is another viewpoint.

[Ed13]

I've also seen some very hi-bodied wilds here and there so the traite is readily available in nature. I read a similar article, or maybe the same article Xiaofei, and remember it mentioning the giant blues. I belive they were said to be more of a light grey than blue, were huge, and were found in only one small tributary.
Andrew soh has a theory about the origins of bulldog discus. He says they are the result of a bacterial infection in the spine of discus that results in a deformity. I personaly don't agree with this theory, but it is another viewpoint.
The trait is certainly found in some wilds, at least from the looks of it from pics. Don't know if the trait in the early high body discus was discovered from breeding domestics or deliberately introduced from wild stock.

Regarding bulldogs(side topic, I know:o), they have made me fear and dislike high body discus since you can no longer tell if regular or high body discus have them in their background whether it's a mutant gene or localized infection as Andrew thinks.

BTW, Andrew confirmed via lab work, a group of bulldog discus exhibiting lordosis were indeed infected with mycobacterium sp. bacteria as well as the contageous nature of it (let's called "bulldogitis" lol) through out his hatchery after regular breeding pairs started throwing "bulldogs" when they've not done so before shortly after he added some bulldogs to his collection. The problem is this is the only study I'm aware it's been done and there is no way to tell which came first "the chicken or the egg". But, very scary if you ask me.

[CliffsDiscus]

I had the High Body Discus from Gan back in the late 80's to early 90's. These fish were
cross with Jack Wattley's Discus, they were not called Bulldogs but Bat Discus. The Gan
Discus I received didn't have the short spine as I see now in the Bulldogs. Pictures of
the Gan Discus can be seen in the Discus Annual and some of the TFH issues.

Cliff