holes in the head

[duckyser]

I just noticed the diamond blue discus i have has small pinhole holes in its head. the holes are very shallow .5mm deep between the eyes. Should i be worried?

[Jennie]

pics would help

[duckyser]

cam is rly bad, the holes do not look anything like picture of hole in the head disease when i google it, the holes are very very small

[AirCapital]

hole in the head starts out small and slowly progresses if it is hith I would treat with metro or phenol solution, you may check with a sponsor here david rose and see if he carries meds if you find out you need some

[snowflake311]

If they are little pin holes they are the sensory pits all fish have these. Here's a photo of my true parrot you can see she has many.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/fish/P4213186.jpg

meds are not the best way to treat HITH all you need is extra clean water and good food with vitamines. But I think all you are seeing are the sensory pits. I have treated fish with very bad hith and they are 100% better all I did was daily wc of 70% and fed quality food with vita-chem. No need for meds most of the times it's just due to poor water or food.

Here is hith before and after.

Before when I got them. This is hith.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/fish/P5283522.jpg

here they are all better.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P7143809.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P7143805.jpg

sorry they ate not discus photos I just got into discus and have been keeping sa chichlid for years.

[duckyser]

ohh i guess there sensory oragns, lol thanks

[danny2013]

Off topic but how do you post pictures without them being attachments?

[snowflake311]

Off topic but how do you post pictures without them being attachments?

Photobucket. I have all my fish photo on photo bucket and then you just cut and paste the link boom photo.

[Eddie]

Yup, just copy and paste the IMG link.

[Keith Perkins]

And if you don't specifically use photo bucket Eddie might not be able to see the pictures from work. :laugh:

[danjadragonfly]

Well, I also have an interesting case going on in my QT.
I have these Hybrids from Asia bought 10 month ago from a pretty well established store here. And had problem with them all along. I only bought them because my hubi liked them so much otherwise I would have listen to the warnings about the asian hybrids, but what can you do? payed a hell of a money for 6 of them. Even though I am having my discus keeping habits quite straight 3 of them dyed in the first 3 month.
And with 2 of them I am struggling since.

After I dealt with their internal parasites and I thought now they should be fine I came from vacation and found them with .....HITH or whatever it is they have, because the symptoms I know of do not really match. :confused:
They are literally eaten up with holes, like you can see on the pictures.
I treated with a full course of Metro - NO IMPROVEMENT (by the way water is always pristine)
Now, get that:
1. against my info I got through forum and messaging with breeders there should be some sort of puss in it - There is NON
2. it is mainly the breathing holes which are enlarged and the smaller one of them has real big craters above her eyes.
3.They are eating normal with great appetite.
4. Just yesterday I thought to post a thread asking the forum whether I should "put them to rest", because it seams nothing helps and they just get eaten away - I do not want that they suffer :(- The happy couple start laying hundred of eggs on the sponge filter and playing mama, papa, egg - fanning like wild like nothing would be wrong with them.

Eddie if you are out there, do you have any idea what is going on with that HITH or is it something else.
I posted picts, you can hopefully see what I am talking about they are not the best quality.

[Eddie]

Yup, whats your gH and kH? Also, how often do you do water changes?

[Eddie]

And if you don't specifically use photo bucket Eddie might not be able to see the pictures from work. :laugh:

LOL, missed that one. :D Yup, stick to photobucket and I'll be able to see the pictures from the job. ;)

[Lukan]

Yup, whats your gH and kH? Also, how often do you do water changes?

Hi Eddie,

What would be an ideal gH and KH? Thanks

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie,

What would be an ideal gH and KH? Thanks

I am not sure about ideal as it relates to HITH but if the numbers are low and the fish are not getting adequate mineral intake through diet, I have seen fish develop HITH. HITH is very mysterious but there are several culprits, like poor living conditions, inadequate diet and internal parasites.

Eddie

[danjadragonfly]

Hi Eddie,
anything to my post here. do you see my pictures?
If not were is photo bucket. is that something within the simplydiscus forum?
I do not see any link anywhere.

thanks

[Eddie]

Hey there, yeah I saw the pictures. What is your water change routine? What is your gH and kH? What foods do you feed?

[snowflake311]

How long were you on vacation? Were they fed when you were gone? You already treated for parasites so I highly doubt parasites are the case so metro will not do anything for them.

Do not put them down if they are still active and eatting. HITH is not a death sentance. Since you were gone on vacation The water quality was not what it normaly is right? So that could have brought it on. Quality of food is also key IME. Lack of Phosphorus, Calium, Vitamin C and Vitamin D in the diet can cause this. With Extra clean water good food and vitamines you can see the holes start to heal in a week. I took mine 2 month to be 100% better but in 3 weeks they were looking much better.

Just make sure to keep the water extra clean try and get some vita-chem and they will get better in no time. Take out the carbon if you have it in your filter give them time they will get better if you try.

[danjadragonfly]

THANKS so MUCH for the hope you have given me. I will focus on WC, food with extra Vitamins etc. and to keep up patience.

By the way, is it contagious to other discus????
Do I have to keep them separate?

[Eddie]

THANKS so MUCH for the hope you have given me. I will focus on WC, food with extra Vitamins etc. and to keep up patience.

By the way, is it contagious to other discus????
Do I have to keep them separate?


IME, no. I have kept fish that developed HITH with many other fish and it was isolated to the one specific fish. Very strange indeed. I went on vacation and 1 tank of my blue fish started to develop HITH. It wasn't severe but noticeable. Once I got them back on their regular routine, the HITH stopped progressing and it has never gotten worse. It has never cured over either, the pits still remain. I've had them with many other fish and none of them ever picked it up. :o

[danjadragonfly]

thanks Eddie, that helps.
The most weird thing indeed. And like I said mine are even breeding, laying eggs like crazy. But I thought a little community and plants in my main tanks help the healing process. You know like rehabilitation.;)

[Vern Archer]

If I could add although extremly important don't overdose
...Vitamin Deficiencies - Let’s look at what vitamin deficiencies can do to our discus. Vitamin "B1" (thiamine); "B2" (riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, and pantothenic acid); "B6" (pyridoxine); "H" (biotin); and Vitamin "A" among others, if found to be deficient can inhibit growth. Vitamin "A", vitamin "C" and pantothenic acid deficiencies can result in backbone, gill and gill cover deformities. (Vitamin "A" should be aprox. 5,000 I.U. and vitamin “C" 75 mg per kilogram of beef-heart mix). Vitamin "D" works in conjunction with calcium and phosphate and, if they are deficient, the result can lead to "Hole in the Head" disease. (Vitamin "D", should be aprox. 400 I.U. per kilogram of beef-heart mix). Vitamin "E" is important for reproduction and fertility. (Vitamin "E" should be aprox. 5 to 10 mg per kilogram of beef-heart). Note! do not overdose your discus on Vitamin "A" and "D" and calcium as this can lead to serious illness as well as deposits and blockage's in the kidneys.
v

[Lukan]

After reading Vern's post. Pro-Growth is a very ideal powder to use on Beefheart Mix. All you have to do is order it from David at IGO-Pro.

Here is the breakdown of Pro-Growth:

Main Ingredients

Vitamin A - Vitamin D3 - Vitamin E - Vitamin K - Vitamin B1 - Vitamin B2 - Vitamin B3 - Vitamin B5 - Vitamin B6 - Vitamin B7 - Vitamin B9 - Vitamin B12 - Amino Acids - Minerals

[Eddie]

After reading Vern's post. Pro-Growth is a very ideal powder to use on Beefheart Mix. All you have to do is order it from David at IGO-Pro.

Here is the breakdown of Pro-Growth:

Main Ingredients

Vitamin A - Vitamin D3 - Vitamin E - Vitamin K - Vitamin B1 - Vitamin B2 - Vitamin B3 - Vitamin B5 - Vitamin B6 - Vitamin B7 - Vitamin B9 - Vitamin B12 - Amino Acids - Minerals


Great info Vern

Almost all processed fish foods, such as pellets and flakes, are supplemented with vitamins and minerals. Would you say there is not enough in them?

[Vern Archer]

Hi Eddie I would say it depends on the food, how long its been stored and how its been stored. I refrigerate my flake food and buy in small enough quantities that it doesn't sit around for a number of months. What caught my eye was a couple of threads posted recently on "hole in the head", which I haven't seen for many years, as it was determined some time ago to be diet related and using metro didn't seem like the solution to me at least the long term solution. In my beefheart salmon formulae I add half a multivitamin cap as well as a standard crushed vitamin D pill that I take myself once a day to a kilo mix. Also all ingredients are fresh never previously frozen because freezing in itself will deteriate a number of vitamins up to 50% of their effectiveness. The information posted comes from a larger article and research that I did a few years ago and can be seen on my website under nutrition.
v

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie I would say it depends on the food, how long its been stored and how its been stored. I refrigerate my flake food and buy in small enough quantities that it doesn't sit around for a number of months. What caught my eye was a couple of threads posted recently on "hole in the head", which I haven't seen for many years, as it was determined some time ago to be diet related and using metro didn't seem like the solution to me at least the long term solution. In my beefheart salmon formulae I add half a multivitamin cap as well as a standard crushed vitamin D pill that I take myself once a day to a kilo mix. Also all ingredients are fresh never previously frozen because freezing in itself will deteriate a number of vitamins up to 50% of their effectiveness. The information posted comes from a larger article and research that I did a few years ago and can be seen on my website under nutrition.
v


Thanks Vern, I read that on your site long ago. Its interesting that vitamin D would be the culprit after many years of nobody ever knowing what causes HITH. It would make sense in my case as once my fish were back on their routine diet, the craters stopped and have never come back.

Eddie

[Discus master]

Great info Vern

Almost all processed fish foods, such as pellets and flakes, are supplemented with vitamins and minerals. Would you say there is not enough in them?

I feed frozen Blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, I am trying to get them to start eating froen store bought beef heart their not eating it rite now I guess I may have to starve them a coupl of days to get them to eat it, and I feed and suplement their diet with Discus BIO Gold the discus formula up to 3 times a day for a total of about 5 feeding. Mine love thoes pelets. They eat them up great for me I have tried others and flakes they wont go for it but the Discus BIO Gold peelts they will eat and I feel that with 2 or 3 feedings of those pelets a day they are getting everything they need from them for sure everything is in them that I am confident their getting all their nutritional needs meet. That along with the frozen foods I feel my discus are getting a well rounded healthy diet, I just need to get them to except the frozen beef heart to top it all off, but my fish are getting to be around 4 or 5 months old and no pitting what so ever and I do large frequent water changes so I think I got the nack of how to care for them fairly well now. I would rather buy sub adults tough from now one from a reputable breder like the one I go to becuase growing them out is work and I am still doing water changes of 80% every other day. I use to do 80% daily for the first 3 months so I guess I should not complain, and I service my canister filter and replace the filter floss in it every single week and I have a pre filter sponge on the intake and a hydro V air driving sponge in the tank as well. So I think I am doing alright with them now took forever a lot of money and time and patince to get to this point but seriously Eddie what the best way to get them to start excepting the frozen cubed beef heart?

[Vern Archer]

If I could suggest making your own beefheart seafood mix as I have yet to find a frozen comercial product that I would feed or that my fish would like although I am sure someone out there is doing it. There are a number of recipes on Simply check it out..My fish prefer my formula to the blood worm and keep in mind beefheart in itself doesn't add all the necessary vitamins it adds vitamin A and protein but fresh Atlantic Salmon is actually more nutricious and has equal to or more protein. just make sure to add the vitamin D and half a powdered multivitamin to the kilo mix or as someone earlier suggested Pro Growth is also a good product. PS To minimise clouding the tank add one ripe banana per kilo it will help bind the mix and don't add water to the processor.
v

[Eddie]

If I could suggest making your own beefheart seafood mix as I have yet to find a frozen comercial product that I would feed or that my fish would like although I am sure someone out there is doing it. There are a number of recipes on Simply check it out..My fish prefer my formula to the blood worm and keep in mind beefheart in itself doesn't add all the necessary vitamins it adds vitamin A and protein but fresh Atlantic Salmon is actually more nutricious and has equal to or more protein. just make sure to add the vitamin D and half a powdered multivitamin to the kilo mix or as someone earlier suggested Pro Growth is also a good product. PS To minimise clouding the tank add one ripe banana per kilo it will help bind the mix and don't add water to the processor.
v


+1 and I have been using Pro-Growth for a long time now.

[danjadragonfly]

Well, that is really great information on this topic. Just a short update on my discus hybrid couple - they are getting better now even though very slowly.:)

I will try to get a proper vitamine.
Vern - which exact vitamine are you putting into your mix?
Is it easily available in Canada? Which brand?

Thanks

[Jennie]

would liquid vitamin (multi) be ok or do you just suggest pro gro? How much??

[Eddie]

would liquid vitamin (multi) be ok or do you just suggest pro gro? How much??

Any vitamin will do, I used to use centrum liquid vitamins.

[Jennie]

used to?

[Eddie]

used to?


+1 and I have been using Pro-Growth for a long time now.

Yes, I use Pro-Growth now