clamped gill, black specs, lil bit red right fin..whats wrong?

[Ruffy]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Yesterday, i was observing fish and noticed both of my golden crystals has one gill clamped, one had black specs on face(i thought just a lil peppering) but now the other is starting to show on the face. Also the right fin of one is reddish where her fin is connected to the body and a lil reddish on the top of her mouth almost as if seeing through the skin like a bruise...but swimming, eating, feces seems normal

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

kind of said it all above

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

no treatments yet, not sure what to treat or what to use

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

125g, 14 discus 12 of them are 2-3'' and the 2 goldens that are the problem they are bout 4-5''

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

50% w/c every 3 days w/ prime added after every w/c, running about 6wks, bare bottom, no aging water

6 Parameters and water source; these are according to the 5in1 test strips i got and color chart.

- temp _____85(F)

- ph _____7.8

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____1.0 ppm(mg/L)readings from test strip

- nitrate reading ____20 ppm(mg/L)also test strip

- well water ____no

- municipal water ____yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

3 in first, 7 a wk later, 4 after that....they been together for almost 2 wks


im guessing flukes according to info i read but need to confirm...no microscope

[Jennie]

your water is out of balance. your tank was finished cycling before adding more fish?? I think I remember you added quite a few recently, right. Did you add them all at same time or 1 or 2 at a time to give filter enough time to build bacteria? what is the color of your background. the spots sound like peppering. The redness could be from rough handling. If so will clear up in few days.

[Eddie]

Flukes could cause one gill function but as mentioned, your water isn't in good shape. Nitrite should be zero. Any amount of nitrite can be lethal. If its a discus only tank, add salt to combat the nitrite while your bio catches up. 2 tbsp per 10 gallons is the amount. The nitrite may be the culprit here.

Eddie

[Jennie]

and since you have juvies=heavier feeding you need to change your water more often. that will help keep nitrites in order till your filters catch up. replace whatever salt is removed.

[boxters]

Without a pic it's hard to help you. The redness on the pectoral fins could be bacterial septicemia and would need treating

[nc0gnet0]

Eddie,

You do know that you don't need that much salt to combalt nitrite poisoning correct?

Taken from http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm


For nitrite poisoning salt can impart protection to the fishes. This happens only if the salt content is such that the chloride ion’s concentration is about 30 times that of the nitrite ion concentration in the water. Typically, nitrite becomes toxic at about 0.1 mg/L. This means that the chloride ion concentration would have to be at least 3.0 mg/L. This concentration translates into one of about 5.0 mg/L of salt (NaCl is 60.66% chloride, Cl-); this is equivalent to 18.7 mg/gallon. A teaspoon of table salt is about 5.5 grams (or 5,500 mg); a teaspoon of table salt would be sufficient to protect fishes living in approximately 294 gallons of water! A standard treatment of NovAqua will typically provide enough protection.

For simple osmoregulatory stress protection, on an indefinite basis, one can use 1 to 3 mg/L of salt. This would be equivalent to one teaspoon of salt added to 1,453 to 484 gallons of water!

[Eddie]

Eddie,

You do know that you don't need that much salt to combalt nitrite poisoning correct?

Taken from http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm


Good reference, there are plenty that contradict it though.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm007

[Ruffy]

so far for the past 2 days 50-60% w/c and a wipe down, salt and prime added as usual, water crystal clear....so far no abnormal acts by any of fish.....when fed all eat well...when i come home from work everynite i would even suck up all the feces before feeding...i'll try to capture a pic or video if possible. Thanks for all advice, i'll keep updating for more answers.

[Ruffy]

these were tested after a couple hours from a w/c

6 Parameters and water source; these are according to the 5in1 test strips i got and color chart.

- temp _____85(F)

- ph _____7.8

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____.5 ppm(mg/L)readings from test strip

- nitrate reading ____10 ppm(mg/L)also test strip

question.....is hardness or alkalinity a factor in this situation?
if it is...GH = 150 ppm and KH = 80ppm

[Jennie]

I think the problem is too many fish. Is this your only tank??

[Ruffy]

you think so? no i have a 10g, 20g, 40g, and just got a 55g from petco sale lol... but i was thinking to get a 25g or 29g for the goldens but i would like to get them well 1st.


btw, i have seen over 25 4'' or bigger discus in one of the breeders tanks from my area....it was a 200g....looked crowded but he said they are fine and looked fine to me. I know the 10g/discus rule but i don't think thats the problem....hmmmm could it be my filtration and aeration?? "sigh" just started with discus and its gettin frustrating.

[Jennie]

the problem is your filter wasn't able to handle the load all at once.

[Eddie]

Definitely sounds like your filter is cycling, as why I mentioned adding salt to prevent nitrite poisoning. If you are checking the water parameters a few hours after a water change and still getting any nitrite readings, thats not good. Also, the test strips are not as accurate as the solution/liquid type testers. I'd definitely swing by the LFS and grab a liquid type nitrite test kit to accurately test your nitrites.

Eddie

[Ruffy]

the problem is your filter wasn't able to handle the load all at once.

i have a fluval 405 on one end...hydro #5 sponge in the middle...and a 110 hang on aquaclear....for a 125g i thought that was overkill.


Thanks Eddie, will add more salt and on my way to grab the test solution.

[Eddie]

i have a fluval 405 on one end...hydro #5 sponge in the middle...and a 110 hang on aquaclear....for a 125g i thought that was overkill.


Thanks Eddie, will add more salt and on my way to grab the test solution.


Having a million filters won't make a difference if they do not have a bio bed established for nitrification. ;)

[Ruffy]

so just add salt and wait a couple hours and retest?

[nc0gnet0]

Eddie the link you posted doesn't contradict the link I posted at all.


Determine chloride concentration necessary to meet the recommendation of 6 parts chloride to each part nitrite:

6 x [NO2-] - [Cl-] = chloride needed.

According to your link, you actually need even less salt then the link I posted.

[Eddie]

so just add salt and wait a couple hours and retest?

No, why retest. You know you have nitrites. Either keep adding salt or perform water changes. ;) You just want to keep the fish safe.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Eddie the link you posted doesn't contradict the link I posted at all.



According to your link, you actually need even less salt then the link I posted.


If you are going to take only a portion of the reference, might look at the rest.


Example 2. To control mortality from brown blood disease, increase chloride concentration to 6 times that of nitrite. Add salt to increase chloride level.

[jimg]

I was told 1 tsp per 10 gallons was plenty to protect against nitrite poisoning. I would use the api tests not the strips. If you have nitrites and nitrates now would be a good time to do a large (90%) wc but I wouldn't clean the filters or wipe anything down until the nitrites are 0

[Eddie]

I was told 1 tsp per 10 gallons was plenty to protect against nitrite poisoning. I would use the api tests not the strips. If you have nitrites and nitrates now would be a good time to do a large (90%) wc but I wouldn't clean the filters or wipe anything down until the nitrites are 0


I have also heard the same Jim but the amount of nitrite present would be the deciding factor.

If a pinch of salt per 50 gallons (1 tsp per 294 gallons) is sufficient, man...I get that much into to the tank just from my sweat. ;)

[jimg]

Luckily I never had to do it to find out!......yet!
1 tsp per 294 gallons? i wouldn't think so either

[Eddie]

Luckily I never had to do it to find out!......yet!
1 tsp per 294 gallons? i wouldn't think so either


I hear you, nitrites and fish don't mix with me! :o

[nc0gnet0]

If you are going to take only a portion of the reference, might look at the rest.



Quote:
Example 2. To control mortality from brown blood disease, increase chloride concentration to 6 times that of nitrite. Add salt to increase chloride level.


You don't understand......the original link I posted and the math behind it was enough salt to increase the chloride to nitrite ratio 30 times! Your link says that the ratio only needs to be 6x.

1 teaspoon in a hundred gallon tanks gives you a ratio of over 100x.......

Why add 2 tablespoons to every 10 gallons?

And here is another tidbit.....you don't even need to use salt, potassium chloride works just as well and if you got a planted tank, much safer on the plants.

[Eddie]

You don't understand......the original link I posted and the math behind it was enough salt to increase the chloride to nitrite ratio 30 times! Your link says that the ratio only needs to be 6x.

1 teaspoon in a hundred gallon tanks gives you a ratio of over 100x.......

Why add 2 tablespoons to every 10 gallons?

And here is another tidbit.....you don't een need to use salt, potasium chloride works just as well and if you got a planted tank, much safer on the plants.

Thanks, I'll stick to sodium and with the 2 tablespoons. Never had any issues at even higher levels. Good info though ;)

[Ruffy]

OK! i'll do the salt thing for another 2 days, and if that doesn't work.....sigh.....we salt dippin' their asses!!!

oh yea and this bad phone pic shows the redness but sorry not clear.

[Eddie]

OK! i'll do the salt thing for another 2 days, and if that doesn't work.....sigh.....we salt dippin' their asses!!!


LOL, I wouldn't salt dip them, no reason to. You can keep a pretty good amount of salt in the aquarium the whole time the nitrites are evident. Regardless of the minute amount some suggest, the more you add is not gonna create any adverse affect. Some people have their ways of doing things and nobody will change that. There is always more than one way to success.

Just saw the picture. Since you do have nitrites, there is no telling where the redness is coming from. I always tell people to get their water in shape before moving onto medications. Right now, your water isn't straight.

Eddie

[Ruffy]

ok i guess i can wake up earlier n 50% w/c before work, and again at night when i come home we'll see how that turns out.

Thanks Eddie, your knowledge helps out lots of people on here and i trust your advice. BTW, i been using aquarium salt, is that fine? or should i be using another like table salt? or it don't even matter.

[Eddie]

ok i guess i can wake up earlier n 50% w/c before work, and again at night when i come home we'll see how that turns out.

Thanks Eddie, your knowledge helps out lots of people on here and i trust your advice. BTW, i been using aquarium salt, is that fine? or should i be using another like table salt? or it don't even matter.

Aquarium salt is a sales gimmick. Just buy ordinary table salt, I myself use the non-iodized type but some use just any. We all have our habits. :D

Trust me, I'm never gonna tell you to do anything that will harm your fish. If I do give you treatment instructions, there will be plenty of precautions to go with it, to keep your fish from harm. ;)

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Ok here is my reasoning, typically a nitrite spike is not caught soon enough, and if that is the case, there is most likely some damage to the gill tissue before proventative measures are taken. Now, when dealing with fish with a diminished capacity to take in oxygen, the last thing we want to do is to decrease the dissolved oxygen in the water. However, salt does just this:

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water_quality/water-science/j-9-08-does-salt-concentration-salinity-water-affect-solubility-oxygen.htm

(there are better sources but in a hurry)



When an ionic salt like NaCl is added to water, the ions from the salt introduced will attract the water molecules in an effort to "solvate" the ions. This has the tendency to decrease the weak affinity of non-polar oxygen molecules to water and drive the dissolved oxygen out of the polar water. In general, the solubility of a gas in a solvent is affected significantly by the presence of other solutes in the solution.

So why treat with 10-100x more salt than needed to detoxify the nitrite? Now, I will grant you that I would much rather treat with too much salt than none at all, and nitrites are much more deadly that even salt at 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons, but more is not always neccesarily better.

[Eddie]

Ok here is my reasoning, typically a nitrite spike is not caught soon enough, and if that is the case, there is most likely some damage to the gill tissue before proventative measures are taken. Now, when dealing with fish with a diminished capacity to take in oxygen, the last thing we want to do is to decrease the dissolved oxygen in the water. However, salt does just this:

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water_quality/water-science/j-9-08-does-salt-concentration-salinity-water-affect-solubility-oxygen.htm

(there are better sources but in a hurry)




So why treat with 10-100x more salt than needed to detoxify the nitrite? Now, I will grant you that I would much rather treat with too much salt than none at all, and nitrites are much more deadly that even salt at 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons, but more is not always neccesarily better.

There is the disconnect, NOT once did I say it was required nor better. I gave my advice to the OP based on my practices. If you have a problem with them, argue with me in a PM, not on another members thread. At this point, its obvious the member is satisfied with the advice received.

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Hey, slow down no disrespect intended, I didn't think we were having an argument, I thought we were having a discussion :confused:

Your advice here is invaluable, I myself have followed it many times :) It's just that the discussion at hand is not discus specific (nitrite detoxification), and I thought I would let interested parties know have the oppurtunity to research it a bit more if they like.

At any rate I will bow out of this discussion, sorry to ruffle any feathers :(

[Eddie]

Hey, slow down no disrespect intended, I didn't think we were having an argument, I thought we were having a discussion :confused:

Your advice here is invaluable, I myself have followed it many times :) It's just that the discussion at hand is not discus specific (nitrite detoxification), and I thought I would let interested parties know have the oppurtunity to research it a bit more if they like.

At any rate I will bow out of this discussion, sorry to ruffle any feathers :(

No worries, feathers are all good. I found the information you provided about nitrite and salt useful. I don't regularly treat for nitrite but it comes up for others and 2 tbsp has always been a good amount. If a lower amount is better, I'm all for it. I guess its as you say, adding too much is probably better than adding too less. ;)

Eddie

[Ruffy]

this morning one of them unclamped and using both gills now but one still looks same.... so thanks Eddie again its working!

[Eddie]

this morning one of them unclamped and using both gills now but one still looks same.... so thanks Eddie again its working!


Thats great man, keep us updated. Maybe when the nitrites are at zero and you stop the salt, the redness with diminish. I have had single fish in a group that displayed redness around nostrils and mouth and it was something that couldn't be fixed. Tried antibiotics but it never went away. Fish is happy and never had any issues, just the redness. :o

[Ruffy]

3rd day, 60% w/c more salt + prime, both are now breathing from both gills :D, right pectoral healed, nitrite 0

THANKS ALL!

P.S
no meds!! WOOT!

[Jennie]

keep an eye on those nitrites ruffy, they have a funny way of creeping up:)

[Jennie]

how's the fish Ruffy??:)

[Ruffy]

how's the fish Ruffy??:)

Just beautiful Lover65, thanks for asking.....healthy and alert and fat lil hungry things ;)

[Eddie]

Just beautiful Lover65, thanks for asking.....healthy and alert and fat lil hungry things ;)


Thats wonderful news! ;)

[Ruffy]

thanks to you Eddie, and all that put their 2 cents....very much appreciated.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Eddie]

thanks to you Eddie, and all that put their 2 cents....very much appreciated.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Anytime John! ;)

All the best