200G Discus planted tank... just starting.

[Duke2]

800liter Planted Discus tank - start of new project.

I am new to this site but am also new to keeping discus fish and planted tanks.

My tank is currently an established reef tank (7yrs) that I have almost competed decommissioning, I have grown tired of having to get salt water, the cost to power everything so its time for a change..... having seen some amazing planted discus tanks I would like to have a go at this. I have had Oscars before this... but have forgotten what's its like to have fresh water.

The sump is currently under my house and I am planning to move this to under the stand and build a new sump filter, I am planning not to run a canister filter at all... is this likely to work ok?

I will have lots of questions and would appreciate your input, I am in no rush to have the perfect tank as I know these things take time.

My aim is to build a low maintenance planted discuss tank.... if there is such a thing!!!

Tank Size

1650mm -across the front.
700mm Deep - top to bottom.
700mm wide - front to back.

200G / 800liter

Sump

200 litre with separate chambers.... please have a look at my sump design... what do you think?
Co2 degassing can be a problem I have read when using a sump, I see people put lids on their sumps to help reduce this.
Return pump is a Laguna L7 which is a reasonably powerful pump.. I am planning on using a spray bar that is mounted across the back of the tank, half way down to distribute the return flow.....
I currently have 2 x overflows where the water just free falls in to the sump, not a full suction system.... will this need to be changed to full siphon to reduce the degassing?

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Dukeman2/sumpfilter.jpg

Lighting

I am aware that a tank this deep can be a problem with lighting for plants, I am planning to run 8 x t5 lights which will provide me with 432 watts...(54watts each)
This is 2watts per Gallon which is about the minimum for light so I am lead to believe... will this do the job? I have sold my Metal Halide lights so they are out of the question...

Water

We live in the country and have rain water tanks so the water supply should be OK, I will have the water tested to give me a starting point. I am not planning on using RO water as I want to do this as simply as possible... so I want to use our water supply as is... obviously if the water is not suitable to use as is... then I will need to worry about that if it occurs.

Water Change System

The system will be controlled by a PLC which will do automatic water changes and automatic water top up.
I know people do large water changes each week with nicely heated replacement water... I will not have this benefit so I am planning on using water at outside temp straight from the tank... I have a solenoid on the tap which the PLC turns on and off as required. The sump will have a drain pipe just in case the solenoid stay on for some reason and a flood can not occur..

So... what if I did a smaller water change everyday... 60liters a day out of the sump and replaced with fresh cold water in to the sump... then allow the water to sit in the sump for 30min before starting the main pump again.. this would not worry the tank or change the temperature very much... .
Will doing a smaller water change everyday be the same a a large change once a week?

I will still need to clean the filter mesh weekly etc

Fish and plants

I want a nicely planted discus tank... but I want the bio load to be quite low... for ease of maintance.

Not sure about stocking levels at this stage.. so I am thinking about 6 x discuss, a large school of neon's and some clean up crew.

plants ... no idea.

Feeding Fish

I plan to feed night and morning with frozen food and use an auto feeder for during the day with pallet food ... the only problem with this is the over flows and floating food will go straight over the over flows..... maybe full sypin is the way to go?

Where do I start?

Get the tank and sump up and running.
Cycle the tank with some tank mates and run for 2 months
Add plants and get CO2 running and run for 2 months
Add a discuss and watch them grow
Question.. can you add discus to the tank over a 2-3 month period? will there be issues doing this? Say 2 now and 2 in a few month and 2 after that?

[azpunisher24]

Wow, looks like its going to be a challenge.

wish you the best

[willbldrco]

My aim is to build a low maintenance planted discuss tank.... if there is such a thing!!!

I've had the same goal for the past year or so - with a similar plan. I have an overflow sump set-up. I've been focusing on running a lush and healthy planted tank before adding discus and have succeeded in doing that for 5-6 months at this point. However, I've done that *without* the sump.

The problem is that I cannot keep my drop checker at yellow/green with that damn sump in the mix. The tank has a glass lid with cut out for the overhang. The overhang is sealed with suran-wrap. The sump is covered with a custom-cut plexi cover. But despite this focus on covers, I think that since the water simply drops via gravity into the tube to the sump, it must pull some air in there as it goes down. After all, bubbles come out with the water into the sump. I assume this process creates a tank-to-sump air current that pulls air in from around the top of the tank and expels it under the tank in the sump compartment. As this air is aggressively mixed with the water during its trip to the sump, there is a huge opportunity for out-gassing of CO2.

Well, that's my theory, anyway.

So my planted tank looks fantastic now, but I don't use my sump. And I need that sump to take my tank to the next (Discus) level. :(

Will

[cfi on the fly]

yeah, with a sump you will have too much water disruption causing the co2 to outgas. Same thing can happen when the outflow pipes for a cannister filter break the waters surface too much.

Now thats not to say you cant still have a nice planted discus tank with a sump. you just will need to concentrate on plants that dont require much if any pressurized co2. Large crypts and the like are probably going to look better in a tank that size anyway.

[Duke2]

Thanks for the replys.

What about going for a full syphin over flow?
This would eliminate noise and help with the water service disruption?

[waj8]

I have a similar setup to what you propose. There is no problem with the CO2 off gassing as I have a tight fitting lid on the sump. Sumps for planted tanks are not the same as a normal sump as no air will enter the sump due to the lid. It is more like a cannister filter. I think your sump design is a bit complicated for your purpose. I never clean the biomedia but I do clean the prefilter at least once a week. As already suggested, you should concentrate on having a good planted tank before you add any Discus. It is too much to take on plants and Discus as well as DIYing stuff all at once. I don't understand why more people don't use a sump in this situation. I don't have mine under the tank though, I think that might be a bit of a pain. Mine is in a different room but at tank level for easy access.

[aquatic3]

There is no question you can use a sump under a tank or in basement with a Planted Discus tank and have the set up that provides for a nice biological environment, which is KEY!

However, a sump is NOT a closed system and WILL out gas or will not reach the proper CO2 diffusion levels a rich planted tank may require. NOTE: when water overflows and "falls" via gravity to the sump. It falls and opens into the sump space. No matter how tight you think it is or covered or ducked taped, gas and pressure are acting against you. No way you can stop it. Again, this is not a problem if you don't mind replacing your CO2 tank twice a year (depending on size) or are willing to select certain species of plant and less of them.

Personally, I've started the Aquatic3 Project that is trying to establish a happy medium for Discus and Plant lovers. I believe nothing beats a Eheim canister or closed inline filtration system for biological purposes. Think about it as a closed inline filtration cycle as a hydraulic system. Even the smallest leak will reduce power or efficiency. The Aquatic 3 project has an overflow that has been converted into an in tank sump, that has a submerged silent closed stand pipes that provides a closed water cycle. The levels or CO2 are accurately controlled by inline diffusion and O2 is managed via 1/4" surface agitation. I too have to worry about out gassing, but since I have redundant filters, the C02 spray bar is separate and not angled as high as the O2 side. So I have a balanced CO2 and O2 levels, which are also required at night for healthy plant growth and Discus.

Regardless if you use a sump, canister or inline filter unit a planted Discus tank automatically limits the types of plants you can use. Most do fine without CO2 injection, but I believe to maintain the proper environment over time, CO2 is beneficial to close the loop and to promote healthy plant growth. If your setting up a 200 gallon planted Discus aquarium, you may want to check out my Blog at Aquatic3 that reviews various options for filters, lighting, water chemistry etc.

Good Luck!!!
:drummer:

[Offpath]

Lighting

I am aware that a tank this deep can be a problem with lighting for plants, I am planning to run 8 x t5 lights which will provide me with 432 watts...(54watts each)
This is 2watts per Gallon which is about the minimum for light so I am lead to believe... will this do the job? I have sold my Metal Halide lights so they are out of the question...


Assuming these are 8 x t5ho lights that cover the entire length of the tank and have individual reflectors, you have much higher lighting than you think. Unless you intend to raise them significantly off the top of the water, you will have way too high lighting for plants and will likely wind up with algae soup.

The watts-per-gallon rule was based upon much less efficient t12 and t8 lights and on tanks much smaller than 200 gal. I'd highly recommend checking out Hoppy's charts over on the planted tank forums:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/105774-par-vs-distance-t5-t12-pc.html

Good luck, and please post updates about your tank! I'm working on a similarly sized planted discus tank (with CO2 and a sump, too), so it's great to hear what works for other people.

[discuspaul]

Duke2:
Can't help you much with your planned sump/filtration project, but it looks like your'e already getting some good direction & advice so far in this regard.

As for lighting, even with the depth you have, 2 watts/gal. should not pose a problem with the type of hardier, low-maint. plants that will 'mesh' well for a discus tank. And you may not even need CO2.
Suggestions are various types of Swords, Java Fern, Ludwigia, Hygros, even c/s Vals, & some others. These will usually do well @ mid-80 temp.

You could perhaps consider a reasonably light layer of white silica pool filter sand as a substrate, along with a few choice pieces of driftwood, and a fairly low-tech level of plantings, for ease of cleaning, growth potential, easy care, etc.
You are planning a relatively low bio-load, i.e. 6 discus, large school of neons (what - 20- 30, or so ?), and some cleaners. Your proposed modest daily W/C's should be just fine - would suggest though, that you plan on getting adult, or near adult discus - 4.0" +.
Hope this helps a bit.

[discuspaul]

Offpath is quite right - you will very likely have more lighting than you need for what you are planning - 1.5 watts/gal. of T5 HO would be plenty - perhaps 1.0 would even nicely do the job.

[waj8]

There is no question you can use a sump under a tank or in basement with a Planted Discus tank and have the set up that provides for a nice biological environment, which is KEY!

However, a sump is NOT a closed system and WILL out gas or will not reach the proper CO2 diffusion levels a rich planted tank may require. NOTE: when water overflows and "falls" via gravity to the sump. It falls and opens into the sump space. No matter how tight you think it is or covered or ducked taped, gas and pressure are acting against you. No way you can stop it. Again, this is not a problem if you don't mind replacing your CO2 tank twice a year (depending on size) or are willing to select certain species of plant and less of them.


:drummer:

This is incorrect. It does not matter that CO2 gasses off within the sump. The atmosphere within the sump just becomes rich in CO2. Once the sump atmosphere reaches a high enough CO2 concentration there is no more off gassing. To prove this place a small container of dropchecher solution within the sump. The color of the dropchecker solution will be the same as the solution in the dropchecker in the tank. I mean really, where would the CO2 go? The only possible way to lose CO2 is from the overflow. I have mine set so there is only 1/4" of fall from the tank to the overflow. Maybe I could see there being a problem with a standpipe type overflow. I don't have one of those though.

[whitedevil]

I use Co2 with a wet/dry sump and keep a constant 30ppm. I use a powered reactor unit and have that plumbed into my return line on my eheim canister. every two weeks I have to remove half the plants to make room for new growth. this tank is also an open top.

I have a 52g angel/dwarf cichlid aquarium that uses a wet/dry sump and has Diy Co2 and once a month I trim a good 36" off each plant. again open top tank.

Duke, sounds like a nice set up, but dont fear the Co2 and gassing off, you can still have surface rolling without causing the surface to break.

Here is the 210
http://i38.tinypic.com/j8it1g.jpg

its been running since march with no lids, i have a debris cover on the sump itself but it doesnt do much but prevent dust and debris, the back is wide open. I had maybe a dozen plants in march when the build was finished.

[theokie]

I've been planning out a similar set up myself, though its for a 150 gallon show tank with a 45 gallon tank used for the sump. Hoping to use the left side of my sump to grow emergent plants to help with filtration, and also let me test out a LED light array before I build one for my main tank.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/4984433760_ab650b7127_b.jpg

Blue is 4" 10 PPI Poret Foam
Green is 2" 20 PPI Poret Foam
Grey is 2" 30 PPI Poret Foam
White is Eggcrate Divider
Purple is 1/4 glass or acrylic used to construct the sump
Black pipe on the left is the drain line for the auto water changer
Red cylinders are heaters
Small yellow pipe near heaters is water inlet line from storage tank
Black line on right is return line to tank.

Pressurized C02 injection is to be done with an inline reactor in return line.

Let me know what you think, and I wish you the best of luck with yours.

[Ibenu]

This was done with NO CO2-- Flourish excel (mock stuff) Occasionally only. so If the sump will off gas the co2 anyway consider not using it.. perhaps.. as many have had great results without and with my discus I appreciated not having co2 I had to work with myself..
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/ibenu/th_tankaprilend.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/ibenu/?action=view&current=tankaprilend.jpg)
Click for larger,, its a 250G

[moneyLaw]

Wow.. very nice set up you got there. Do you have the name of the plants you have in the tank? Also which substrate r you using? I don't want to mess with CO2 as well and seems like you have the tank I am trying to build. :)



This was done with NO CO2-- Flourish excel (mock stuff) Occasionally only. so If the sump will off gas the co2 anyway consider not using it.. perhaps.. as many have had great results without and with my discus I appreciated not having co2 I had to work with myself..
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/ibenu/th_tankaprilend.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/ibenu/?action=view&current=tankaprilend.jpg)
Click for larger,, its a 250G

[willbldrco]

Purple is 1/4 glass or acrylic used to construct the sump


I'm curious what the purple glass/acrylic panels are for beneath the first two stages. I see that both sump drawings use this angled method, but I don't understand what it's purpose is. Wouldn't the same water flow and filtration be accomplished if you removed those?
Curious,

Will

[theokie]

I'm curious what the purple glass/acrylic panels are for beneath the first two stages. I see that both sump drawings use this angled method, but I don't understand what it's purpose is. Wouldn't the same water flow and filtration be accomplished if you removed those?
Curious,

Will

I have it angled like that as the water change bulkhead is located there, so that any accumulation of waste, in that area, will be removed with the water change

[willbldrco]

I have it angled like that as the water change bulkhead is located there, so that any accumulation of waste, in that area, will be removed with the water change

Ah, makes sense! Yeah, it would funnel everything to the drain... Good idea.

Thanks for that info!

Will

[auraball]

wowww very nice

[CO2FAN]

Duke2 Hi.
Well you've decided on quite a challenge but it's not going to be low maintenance, I can assure you of that, not if you want an 800-liter tank and Sump keeping healthy Plants and Discus. As you are going high Tech ie: Co2, Bio, filtration,mech and a good substrate then you must do some research into the water chemistry, Disease and Meds, Ferts and a system of sound design.
I would advise you cycle your system well with a selection of easy keep plants and plenty of them until your sure your water parameters are spot on before you add discus.
Some say it's too problematic what you are about to undertake but if you follow the advice given by members here, then you are half way there. You will still have to modify your setup to suit your own environment and water supply and make changes as this is not," ONE SIZE FITS ALL"
I have 2 x 300 liter tanks and a 160 liter Sump of my own design, coupled together running through bio balls and sponge and a central refugium which is also heavily planted. My system has two pumps one quiet pump and a power pump that can move 8000 l\h. The other sits in unison that moves 1200 l\h. I can switch between the two to both save power and less turbulence, which Discus don't like. The power pump is used as a backup and out pump and when I need extra fast filtration.
Algea control is a challenge in a planted tank and needs in-depth research to get the right balance. (plenty of info on planted tank forum)
I also have four smaller hospital tanks for separated medication and breeding purpose.

Your design as posted has your water flow running first thru wool then sponge then bio balls and then a fine media, before passing upward through more media sponge and polishing pads. This is not a good idea and not practical. You need easy access to separated media in different chambers and really all you need is about 1000 - 26mm bio balls in one chamber then sponge filter in another so you can change the sponge when necessary. I run a wet system and my pumps are external to allow for maintenance. The sponge filtration is wrapped around the intake suction pipes to the pumps. I get my sponge filter in large sheets from an air conditioning filtration supplier, its cheap does a great job and I can change it regularly.
If you are successful at keeping your plants alive and Thriving they will provide excellent filtration in themselves.
My system is stable with 0 Ammonia.0 Nitrites and about 20-40 ppm Nitrates depending on when I do water change which is 50% per week and the occasional gravel vac. Water changes are essential for health and well being of you plants and fish. I also have the benefit of a 2500 litre rainwater tank and live on the coast so my fish have never suffered from municipal water probs.

My Co2 is in the sump with closed lids and runs a constant 4 bps only when the lights are on or pH reaches 7 and off when it reaches 6.4 thru an auto regulator on the Co2 tank. I have an in tank bubble counter and changeable glass diffuser. I don't need to actually measure the amount as my plants are thriving and none of my fish come to the surface gasping for oxy. You will have to experiment a little with distribution of your Co2, run a line to diffuse in both the tank itself and the sump. Some out gassing will occur but not much. (Takes a long time for the gas in a soda bottle to outgas especially if it's being replenished all the time). A bigger problem is too much Co2 and this will kill your fish for sure. Watch your tetras they are like canaries and will be the first to come to the surface gasping for oxygen.

Your lighting should be fine at 8-9 hrs a day and you should adjust this, as your plants require. If an Algae starts to bloom shorten your light cycle and adjust your ferts. Your Discus will be fine and will get used to the bright lights, They may be a little scared to go to the surface to feed till they get used to it, I feed mine live bw during the day and dried bw at night and the occasional fbloodworm as a treat in-between. Discus like some shade and a large Amazon sword or two would be great for them.

As a substrate I have 30 mm of vermiculite topped with 10 mm course river sand and a good quality single layer of medium gravel on top, sloped from front to rear. As long as the above have been thoroughly washed clean you wont foul your tank and all ferts can be added to the water column.
I don't like organic substrates as they can harbor nasties.

You should be able to keep around 10 -12 decent sized Discus, (They like to be in groups, they will occasionally fight for dominance and will pair off eventually to breed) a couple of Botias, and a group of tetras and clean up crew. (Check out the stock calculator and don't overstock)

Take time to think out your plumbing and if your sump is under your main tank make sure you have a foolproof siphon break and cocks on both inward and outward lines. (To regulate water flow, maintenance and pump out)

This is my first post so I cant include my photo bucket url. pm me for the link
Other Specifics, Just ask.
Harry

[eranaubs]

Duke2 Hi.
Well you've decided on quite a challenge but it's not going to be low maintenance, I can assure you of that, not if you want an 800-liter tank and Sump keeping healthy Plants and Discus. As you are going high Tech ie: Co2, Bio, filtration,mech and a good substrate then you must do some research into the water chemistry, Disease and Meds, Ferts and a system of sound design.
I would advise you cycle your system well with a selection of easy keep plants and plenty of them until your sure your water parameters are spot on before you add discus.
Some say it's too problematic what you are about to undertake but if you follow the advice given by members here, then you are half way there. You will still have to modify your setup to suit your own environment and water supply and make changes as this is not," ONE SIZE FITS ALL"
I have 2 x 300 liter tanks and a 160 liter Sump of my own design, coupled together running through bio balls and sponge and a central refugium which is also heavily planted. My system has two pumps one quiet pump and a power pump that can move 8000 l\h. The other sits in unison that moves 1200 l\h. I can switch between the two to both save power and less turbulence, which Discus don't like. The power pump is used as a backup and out pump and when I need extra fast filtration.
Algea control is a challenge in a planted tank and needs in-depth research to get the right balance. (plenty of info on planted tank forum)
I also have four smaller hospital tanks for separated medication and breeding purpose.

Your design as posted has your water flow running first thru wool then sponge then bio balls and then a fine media, before passing upward through more media sponge and polishing pads. This is not a good idea and not practical. You need easy access to separated media in different chambers and really all you need is about 1000 - 26mm bio balls in one chamber then sponge filter in another so you can change the sponge when necessary. I run a wet system and my pumps are external to allow for maintenance. The sponge filtration is wrapped around the intake suction pipes to the pumps. I get my sponge filter in large sheets from an air conditioning filtration supplier, its cheap does a great job and I can change it regularly.
If you are successful at keeping your plants alive and Thriving they will provide excellent filtration in themselves.
My system is stable with 0 Ammonia.0 Nitrites and about 20-40 ppm Nitrates depending on when I do water change which is 50% per week and the occasional gravel vac. Water changes are essential for health and well being of you plants and fish. I also have the benefit of a 2500 litre rainwater tank and live on the coast so my fish have never suffered from municipal water probs.

My Co2 is in the sump with closed lids and runs a constant 4 bps only when the lights are on or pH reaches 7 and off when it reaches 6.4 thru an auto regulator on the Co2 tank. I have an in tank bubble counter and changeable glass diffuser. I don't need to actually measure the amount as my plants are thriving and none of my fish come to the surface gasping for oxy. You will have to experiment a little with distribution of your Co2, run a line to diffuse in both the tank itself and the sump. Some out gassing will occur but not much. (Takes a long time for the gas in a soda bottle to outgas especially if it's being replenished all the time). A bigger problem is too much Co2 and this will kill your fish for sure. Watch your tetras they are like canaries and will be the first to come to the surface gasping for oxygen.

Your lighting should be fine at 8-9 hrs a day and you should adjust this, as your plants require. If an Algae starts to bloom shorten your light cycle and adjust your ferts. Your Discus will be fine and will get used to the bright lights, They may be a little scared to go to the surface to feed till they get used to it, I feed mine live bw during the day and dried bw at night and the occasional fbloodworm as a treat in-between. Discus like some shade and a large Amazon sword or two would be great for them.

As a substrate I have 30 mm of vermiculite topped with 10 mm course river sand and a good quality single layer of medium gravel on top, sloped from front to rear. As long as the above have been thoroughly washed clean you wont foul your tank and all ferts can be added to the water column.
I don't like organic substrates as they can harbor nasties.

You should be able to keep around 10 -12 decent sized Discus, (They like to be in groups, they will occasionally fight for dominance and will pair off eventually to breed) a couple of Botias, and a group of tetras and clean up crew. (Check out the stock calculator and don't overstock)

Take time to think out your plumbing and if your sump is under your main tank make sure you have a foolproof siphon break and cocks on both inward and outward lines. (To regulate water flow, maintenance and pump out)

This is my first post so I cant include my photo bucket url. pm me for the link
Other Specifics, Just ask.
Harry

Thanks Harry! That is tons of great info!