All fish in my tank swimming at the top, gasping-help!

[slapnutz]

Tank - 75g, moderately planted with pressurized co2, 4x54w T5HO, 82F. Dosing EI ferts. Tank has been established for 18 months or so. Stock was 4 juvie discus, 2.5" - 4" (3) Red turqs, and (1) cobalt blue. They were doing great in my tank, along with cardinals, rummynose, CPD's, harlequins, trio of rams, 3 otos. Had this setup for 4 weeks or so (discus were new and doing great after 4 weeks). I picked up 5 new discus from a somewhat local breeder. These new guys range in size from 1.5" to 4". Drip acclimated them for about an hour when I got home, and dropped them in my tank. Not everyone was eating on day 1, and discus started swimming at the top, gasping, but not sticking their mouths out of the water. Did a 60% water change, pointed powerhead at the surface to agitate water. Everything looked a little better that night. Come to today, my girlfriend wakes me up and one of my original discus (cobalt blue) is dead. ALL the fish in my tank except for the otos are swimming at the top, and I don't understand why! What could I have done??

Also, did a test last night for ammonia, nitrite,nitrate, came out 0/0/10.

[slapnutz]

Here are a few pics also, not sure if they will help at all.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/evofan12/Fish/IMGP0764.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/evofan12/Fish/IMGP0767.jpg

[pcsb23]

Fish gasping at the top of the water signal a lack of oxygen. It may or may not be your CO2 but I would switch it off. If you can doa water change then do so and make sure it spalshes well when going in. Adding a few capfuls of hydrogen peroxide (3% to 9%) could help too.

[slapnutz]

When we first noticed the gasping, we did the 60% water change. I've had a powerhead and the output from one of my canisters pointed at the surface all night. I also immediately turned off the co2.

[Eddie]

When we first noticed the gasping, we did the 60% water change. I've had a powerhead and the output from one of my canisters pointed at the surface all night. I also immediately turned off the co2.


Good move, add an airstone also, if you can.

[slapnutz]

I put an airstone in there, will update in a couple hours. The thing I don't get is nothing changed in the tank as far as setup goes. CO2, lights, ferts, temp, filters...everything has been the same for months. I literally added 5 fish and the tank has no oxygen?

[pcsb23]

For now you need to treat the symptoms. Deal with the cause when the fish are settled again. Something robbed the water of O2, sometimes when a CO2 cannister gets near the end it can dump the remainder in - never worked out how or why either ...

If you have activated carbon, may be worth runnig some in a filter for a while too, in case there is some other toxin in the water.

[slapnutz]

I understand, just sittin here scratchin my head. The co2 tank is still pretty full, so no end of tank dump.I don't have any carbon, haven't used it in 2 years with the plants.

[jball1125]

How often do you change water? Do you age it at all? When was the last time you added ferts to the water?

[pcsb23]

Check the pH too, sudden drop in pH can do this, though watewr changes should keep it in the safe range.

[h2osanity]

Your MTS are also crawling up the sides towards the surface which usually means that you have had a catastrophic water issue. Something went through the roof. The addition of the extra fish could have caused an ammonia spike and/or used up all available O2. As mentioned, your pH may have crashed, check your temperature as well..
Have the water changes helped? If not, check with your water company to see if they have added anything recently to the water...in the case of several areas with flooding they may have upped or added new decontaminates.

[slapnutz]

the mts seem to do that at night, and the pics were taken right after I turned the lights on. As of now, all the community fish are back to swimming in their normal areas. Discus and rams are still at the top.

[Larry Bugg]

Do you use a dropchecker? How do you monitor you Co2? What kind of regulator is it?

[slapnutz]

Do you use a dropchecker? How do you monitor you Co2? What kind of regulator is it?

I do not currently have the drop checker in. CO2 is going in around 1-2 bps, but I also keep one of my canister returns pointed up to agitate. I rarely get pearling from any of my plants. I basically use the riccia I have as my co2 meter. If that pearls, co2 is good. The regulator is a Milwaukee.

[Larry Bugg]

The regulator is a Milwaukee.

Milwaukee is the reason I asked the question. I have 3 regulators and 2 of them are Milwaukee's. Before swapping out the needle valve on both of them, I had issues with keeping a consistent flow. Occasionally they would just change. Might be worth checking.

[jball1125]

It could be a multitude of things. If water is not aged it might have a lot of gasses in it. You might be off on your co2 since you don't have a drop checker. What I really think is wrong is that you need more oxygen. A simple wave from a canister output wont do it. The water surface needs to be broken like is done with an airstone. The fact that your fish died over night is what is leading me to this conclusion. At night your plants will take in oxygen that your fish need. That's why a lot of people with planted tanks have an air pump on a timer to go on once the lights turn off. Get a strong airstone or two in there and I think things will get better.

[slapnutz]

Just seems odd to happen at the same time as a few new fish were added. Today I will have the airstone running all day, co2 is off. I'm gonna devise something with a timer for night time now on.

[Larry Bugg]

Just seems odd to happen at the same time *** few new Fahrenkrug were added. Today I will have the airstone running all day, co2 is off. I'm gonna devise something with a timer for night time now on.

Doesn't your milwaukee regulator have a solenoid on it? Just plug it into a regular light timer. All of mine are on timers with my lights. A lot of people put them on a separate timer so they can set them to come on about 1/2 hour before the lights come on and shut off abut 1/2 hour before the lights go out.

[slapnutz]

Yes it has a solenoid on it. Its on a timer with the lights so they all come on and go off at the same time.

[jball1125]

Just seems odd to happen at the same time as a few new fish were added. Today I will have the airstone running all day, co2 is off. I'm gonna devise something with a timer for night time now on.

The current symptoms don't seem to be disease related, however, it could very well lead them to disease because of the added stress and their immune system lowering. Though Next time you should QT any new fish in a seperate tank with completely seperate equipment for at least a month before adding them to your display tank. I would add the airstones in ASAP. The longer you wait, the more chances your fish have of getting sick.

[h2osanity]

IME, MTS only really climb when there is a problem with the water or no food. They are like little invert canaries ;) At night in the dark they will come to the surface of the substrate to feed but rarely will they climb unless they do not like the water conditions. It may be that your pH has been fluctuating a lot at night without you knowing it. That would support the fish gasping on the surface at lights on as well. Now with the additional fish, the unstable pH has led to some issues because your buffering capacity has been affected.

[Larry Bugg]

Yes it has a solenoid on it. Its on a timer with the lights so they all come on and go off at the same time.

Then I don't believe adding an air stone permanently is the answer although it is certainly called for right now. I have never used airstones on my pressurized Co2 tanks but I also have the Co2 off with the lights. As long as your Co2 is at a acceptable level when the lights go off and no more Co2 is being added to the tank then there should be no issues. I would be really interested in knowing what the concentration of C02 was at when the issue occured. I would definitely reccomend getting a drop checker. While it won't give you a precise reading on your Co2 level it will give you a good starting point and in this case, if the issue was C02, you might have noticed the problem before it occured. I glance at mine on a regular basis. Orlando at greenleaf has a pretty good price on a basic drop checker and it includes the 4DKH solution.

[slapnutz]

Well, a quick update. Fish are still acting funny. Airstone was on all day, no co2 at all, canister and powerhead agitating surface as well. Lost two more rummynose and a ram. Can't figure this one out at all. It may sound unbelievable, but nothing changed in my tank over the last couple months except for the addition of the new discus. My stock consists of around 20 cardinals, 15 harlequins, 15 rummynose, 3 otos, 2 rams and 8 discus. I've had two canisters running for 5+ months, and co2 for about a year. I'm not new to tanks, but this really has me stumped!!

[Eddie]

As mentioned, the stress from the co2 spike may have brought on infection. Its possible and if the 2 new discus were carriers, its very likely. How are the discus doing? The other fish are replaceble at this point. Do you have a quarantine tank available for isolating the discus?

Eddie

[slapnutz]

I do not have a quarantine tank, living in a condo limits the space I have for fish. I agree, that the other fish are easily replaceable, at a fraction of the price of discus. I honestly don't think there was a co2 spike, as the fish were added to my tank around 11pm, over an hour after my lights and co2 shut off. Everyone was ok during the day yesterday, and started acting funny at night. That was the time when I did the large water change, then proceed to what happened this morning, as my first post states.

[Eddie]

I do not have a quarantine tank, living in a condo limits the space I have for fish. I agree, that the other fish are easily replaceable, at a fraction of the price of discus. I honestly don't think there was a co2 spike, as the fish were added to my tank around 11pm, over an hour after my lights and co2 shut off. Everyone was ok during the day yesterday, and started acting funny at night. That was the time when I did the large water change, added the air stone, and proceed to what happened this morning, as my first post states.


There really is no other option aside from lack of o2. Fish all gasping at the surface is purely lack of o2 IME.

[slapnutz]

I totally get that, but now after almost 24 hours, if I take the air stone out the fish start migrating towards the top. How long can it really take to off gas co2?

[Eddie]

I totally get that, but now after almost 24 hours, if I take the air stone out the fish start migrating towards the top. How long can it really take to off gas co2?

Maybe there was some amount of gill damage and the fish are not absorbing o2 properly. Just guessing here

[slapnutz]

I appreciate the ideas, I'm gonna 50%+ water changes every other day for the next week or so, keep the co2 off too. The plants will survive or bounce back. I've learned from before to apply natural treatments, leave the chemicals out if possible.

[Eddie]

I appreciate the ideas, I'm gonna 50%+ water changes every other day for the next week or so, keep the co2 off too. The plants will survive or bounce back. I've learned from before to apply natural treatments, leave the chemicals out if possible.

That sounds great and yes, chemicals should always be a last option unless there is an emergency.

All the best,

Eddie

[jimg]

I lost a good # of discus awhile back with the same thing. I used hyd peroxide to save the rest. I will never again use canister filters and co2 without a trickle filter. The canister filters rob too much o2 from the water. It may have been the addition of the fish to cause the bio load to consume more o2 plus the fish giving off co2 at the same time. There is a chart you can download from chucks planted aquarium that gives you c02 levels using ph and kh. hope al goes well.

[slapnutz]

Another quick update, came home from work today and the air stone had fallen out of the tank. But......everyone looks great! I'm still gonna keep up the water changes for a while, then maybe next weekend try to introduce the co2 back into the tank.

[jball1125]

Another quick update, came home from work today and the air stone had fallen out of the tank. But......everyone looks great! I'm still gonna keep up the water changes for a while, then maybe next weekend try to introduce the co2 back into the tank.

Might want to reduce your lighting now that the co2 is off, just so you don't get any algae spikes. When you do add co2, remember to add oxygen at night. Aging your water in a separate container will reduce the risk of any gasses coming from the tap. If that's not possible, then make sure that you splash the water into the tank.

Keep us updated. :)

[slapnutz]

Yeah, I cut the lighting from 4 bulbs to 2 for the time being. I have some pretty easy plants, so they shouldn't suffer too bad.

[pcsb23]

Good to hear.

[jpancal]

A few months back I had my fish gasping for air at the top of the tank. I immediately did a water change and observed. They seemed fine for a little while and again they would start gasping for air at the top of the tank. I spent the whole night doing water changes. I finally notcied in the middle of the night that my heater was sparking up a little. I had one of those glass heater. I believe what happend was my heater leaked and caused some sort of posioning. I removed the heater and added a new one and my fish were finally breathing normal. I lost many small fish but my discus survived and I guess that's all that really matters.

[Ruffy]

Fish gasping at the top of the water signal a lack of oxygen. It may or may not be your CO2 but I would switch it off. If you can doa water change then do so and make sure it spalshes well when going in. Adding a few capfuls of hydrogen peroxide (3% to 9%) could help too.

really?? hydrogen peroxide works as an oxygen producer?? wow learn something everyday on SD :D

BTW, maybe too many fish for a 75g?? therefore lack of o2...my guess....but listen to the sponsors and admins they know it all

[pcsb23]

really?? hydrogen peroxide works as an oxygen producer?? wow learn something everyday on SD :D yup Hydrohgen Peroxide (H2O2) breaks down to water (H2O) and oxygen (O2). 2(H2O2) => 2(H2O) + O2


....but listen to the sponsors and admins they know it all
not really, just made many, many mistakes ...:o