Dosing with Vermiol...check my math

[nc0gnet0]

Ok, after alot of searching I couldn't quite seem to find what I was looking for. What I need is the dosing amount in mg for the 7.5% levamisol HCL powder.

I did run across a thread in which AL was mixing the entire bottle into water and dosing from there. Trouble is, I have already used some of the bottle and can't remember how much.

What I did learn from Al's post is that the old levamisol tablets were dosed at 184 mg per 20 gallons. I am assuming that this treatment was based on 100 % pure levamisol.

With that in mind, to produce the same concentration using a powder that only contained 7.5% I would need 184/.075 (or 184 x 13.33) which is 2453 mg per 20 gallons.

Does this sound right?

What I am unsure of if the "old levamisol tablets" were 100% levamisol (or at least produced a concentration of 184mg levamisol per 20 gallon)?

[yim11]

187mg/20 gallons is what I use. Should come out to about 1/2 teaspoon/20 gallons. Treat once a week for 3 weeks.

HTHs,
-jim

[Jennie]

One person to ask would be David Rose.

[nc0gnet0]

187mg/20 gallons is what I use. Should come out to about 1/2 teaspoon/20 gallons. Treat once a week for 3 weeks.

HTHs,
-jim

Is that of the vermisol powder that contains 7.5% levamisol? This is were I am confused as this only produces a concentration of 14 mg levamisol in 20 gallons of water.......

[nc0gnet0]

Here is what Al had posted:


I got a hold of that a few months ago... what I did was as follows...
I took the 100 gram bottle and added 100 mls of water to it.
thats 7.5 grams of levamisole then in 100 mls which is the same
as 7500mg/100 mls or 75mg per 1ml.

from that stock I used 2.5 mls /20 gals tank water... Thats the same
as 187.5 mg/20 gals.. The old levamisole oblets were dosed at 184
mgs/ 20 gals so the dose should be comparable. I can't say as of yet
if the med is effective in this form , but I can't see why it
wouldn't be since its being used as a dewormer in the pigeons.. The
discus do not seem to mind it at all and its not yellowish like the
old tramisole.

Al has stripped the 92.5 grams of filler from the equation and is dealing with just the 7.5 grams of levamisol to achieve his dosage. That means, if I have it correctly, that if you dose with 187.5 mg of the vermisol powder out of the bottle which has a concentration of 7.5% levamisol HCl, your only dosing at 7.5% of the recomended dosage.

Another site I have seen mentioned is :

http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1


Where once again in their dosage Calculation they are dealing with a 100% levamisol HCL powder and they come up with 90 mg of pure levamisol HCL (not 7.5%) per 10 gallons, which coincides with Al's calculations.

[yim11]

Is that of the vermisol powder that contains 7.5% levamisol? This is were I am confused as this only produces a concentration of 14 mg levamisol in 20 gallons of water.......

Yes it is.

HTHs,
-jim

[nc0gnet0]

Interesting, so that is working for you and do you see where it is a considerably smaller dosage than Al had posted??

[yim11]

Interesting, so that is working for you and do you see where it is a considerably smaller dosage than Al had posted??

LOL. I use it during QT and all my fish are healthy...hard to say if it really worked I guess, since I didn't see worms before or after.

I went back and checked a dosing recommendation from a vet, based on 100% pure levamisole, it was 76 mg/10 gallons so your 2+ grams per 20g lines up with that if using the 7.5%.

HTHs
-jim

[nc0gnet0]

To add a little bit more math for the perfectionist:


59 mg of Levamisole HCl is equivalent to 50 mg of levamisole base.

So for doses based on pure levamisole you would need 1.18X that for levamisole HCL (100%), so if your vet recomends 76 mg pure levamisole per 10 gallons that equates to 76 x 1.18 or 89.68 mg levamsole HCL (100%) or 90 mg.

To dose vermasol (levamisole HCL 7.5%) you would need 76 gm x 1.18 x 13.3 which would equal 1195 mg vermisol powder to produce the concentration for 10 gallons your vet recomends.

[David Rose]

To add a little bit more math for the perfectionist:



So for doses based on pure levamisole you would need 1.18X that for levamisole HCL (100%), so if your vet recomends 76 mg pure levamisole per 10 gallons that equates to 76 x 1.18 or 89.68 mg levamsole HCL (100%) or 90 mg.

To dose vermasol (levamisole HCL 7.5%) you would need 76 gm x 1.18 x 13.3 which would equal 1195 mg vermisol powder to produce the concentration for 10 gallons your vet recomends.


Rick, I didn't read Al's original post the same way. I believe the 187.50mg/20gals is at 7.5% concentration of Levamisole/Vermisol. It's best to ask him via PM.

[brewmaster15]

What I am unsure of if the "old levamisol tablets" were 100% levamisol (or at least produced a concentration of 184mg levamisol per 20 gallon)? The old levamisole came in large pills called oblets.....each oblet contains .184 grams or 184 mg of levamisole....that was dosed at a rate of 1 oblet for 20 gals ...The goal is to reach around a 2ppm concentration of a water bath.,

Regardless of the form of levamisole you are using...you can't base your dose on inert carriers... you need to dose based on the mgs of actual levamisole.

ex,, a bottle of meds that weighs 100 grams but only has 7.5 grams levamisole and 92.5 grams inert carrier is not the same as a 100 gram bottle that had 50 grams levamisole. The second bottle has a far higher concentration of dewormer.

When I describe my use of vermisole it was based on taking that 100 gram bottle and using is all with 100 mls water... This gave me a known concentration...I know knew that I had 7.5 grams of levamisole in 100 mls...or 7500 mg in 100 mls or 75 mg in 1 ml.... Now I could dose 2.5 mls to get a dose comparable to the old med. How much is carrier is irrelevent to this equation... you need to just consider the active ingredient.

The target concentration is one that gives you about a 2ppm concentration for a 24 hour bath, This is per Fish pathogists at University of Florida Coop ext,

Hth,
al

ps on the subject of HCL verses pure base..it probably doesn't matter much in the calculations.. The range is approximate...some use less than 2pp, some use 4 ppm as a 24 hours bath... In Pharmaceuticals.. an HCL form is generally more water soluable....The old form of levamisole in the oblet was an HCL...The form used in deworming farm animals is an HCL and the vermisole is also HCL.

[nc0gnet0]

Al,

I understand your method completey. I got my information on the conversion factor from another source when comparing levansole to levamisole HCL. The difference is not large.

However, many have tried to duplicate your concentration by using the vermasol powder directly. But in doing so, forget that your concentraion of 187 mg per 20 gallons is based on pure levamisole, not a powder containing only 7.5%.

Long story short, 187 mg of Vermasol powder (levamisol 7.5%) does not produce a concentration of 2ppm levamisol. It is less than 1/13th of the recomended dosage and very likely useless. To get the correct dosage for the vermisol powder you would need 187 mg x 13.33 (187/.075) or 2.5 grams of vermisol powder to produce a concentration of 2ppm levamisol per 20 gallons.

Once again, your math was correct, however, others have misinterpretted it.

[brewmaster15]

Rick,

others have misinterpretted it. Lol....thats my life story.:)

I Try to be as clear as I can , but truth is, people can have a hard time wrapping their head around dosing, concentrations and dilutions... I had hoped that if I put into the steps I did that it would be easier to follow..for many it was ....for others..I guess it was not.....My apologies if I confused anyone...However, I posted multiple times that my directions were based on diluting the whole bottle and using X amount of mls of a stock solution..

In retrospect I know now why I hesitated to post that dosing info back when I first did in Joanr's Thread on vermisol.:(
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75621

I Guess I better take a chance here...I haven't posted this anywhere yet...just a few behind the scene assists on it use... ..This is how I use it this particiular formulation...

I got a hold of that a few months ago... what I did was as follows...
I took the 100 gram bottle and added 100 mls of water to it.
thats 7.5 grams of levamisole then in 100 mls which is the same
as 7500mg/100 mls or 75mg per 1ml.

from that stock I used 2.5 mls /20 gals tank water... Thats the same
as 187.5 mg/20 gals.. The old levamisole oblets were dosed at 184
mgs/ 20 gals so the dose should be comparable. I can't say as of yet
if the med is effective in this form , but I can't see why it
wouldn't be since its being used as a dewormer in the pigeons.. The
discus do not seem to mind it at all and its not yellowish like the
old tramisole.

I have not publically stated any of this on the forum until now as I am
not sure it will be effective or even safe since we dont know what the
carrier is....its just what I have done....use it at your own risk.

hth,
al

sigh...:(

-al

[nc0gnet0]

Maybe if others look at it this way:

Per your formula You use 1 gram of vermisol per one ml of water to make your stock solution.

It takes 2.5 ml of your stock solution to treat 20 gallons......Thats 2.5 grams vermisol. You can add this 2.5 grams to 2.5 ml water, a cup of water, or a quart of water, and then to your tank, or just directly to your tank, shouldn't matter as long as it dissolves.

[Discus master]

One person to ask would be David Rose.

Thats were I got it from DL! he sent me the instructions but it did not have anything in there about the conversion, but it seems that more than two or three people now have used a 1/2 teaspoon per 20 gallons and that sounds about correct to me. But my inst say to dose once then again in three weeks not once a week for three weeks, still its a difernce of two treatments vs three, I am sure two 3 weeks a part will work fine. I would like ot know for those who used the 1/2 teaspoon per 20 gallons if it cured the fish or was this done as a preventitve measure?? Thanks alll

[deepflyball]

I just wormed my fish, using Jims 1/2 teaspoon/20 gallons

Jerry

[krislewis3]

I tried that..... however, when you try to buy it,it is no longer sold there