Yet another new member seeking advice

[saikung]

Hi there I am a new member living in Hong Kong. I am setting up a triangular 110 gallon tank [420 litres]. [ 110cmX 100Cms X 125cms X 75cms ] I have my own hillside fresh water reservoir but the PH level is 7.2. I have a continuous water change system which can replace the water every 12 hours [adjustable] plus a large external filter. Water temp is currently 30C but will need heating in winter
Q 1.
If I fit a RO filter will this eliminate introduced living organisms eg water louse.?
Q2
What would be the optimum stocking level taking into account the continuous water changes.

[Eddie]

Welcome to Simply

Q 1.
If I fit a RO filter will this eliminate introduced living organisms eg water louse.? No, it will not eliminate any living organisms.


Q2
What would be the optimum stocking level taking into account the continuous water changes. Depends, adults or babies? In the end, 10 or 11 would be a good number.

[nc0gnet0]

Q 1.
If I fit a RO filter will this eliminate introduced living organisms eg water louse.?

I am going to have to disagree with Eddie here, an RO membrame typically will filter down to .001 microns, so yes it will remove most living multicelled organisms, and most certainly water louse (providing it doesn't fail). I however wouldn't use it by itself as your only means to rid the bugs from the water. Coupled with a good UV filter after the ro membrane would be the way to go IMHO and would produce water cleaner than most if not all residential water supplys.

[Eddie]

I am going to have to disagree with Eddie here, an RO membrame typically will filter down to .001 microns, so yes it will remove most living multicelled organisms, and most certainly water louse (providing it doesn't fail). I however wouldn't use it by itself as your only means to rid the bugs from the water. Coupled with a good UV filter after the ro membrane would be the way to go IMHO and would produce water cleaner than most if not all residential water supplys.


Thats not like you. :D

[nc0gnet0]

Thats not like you.

I just new I was going to catch some flack for that :D

But your right in so far as I wouldn't trust it as my only line of defense against cantaminates from an untreated water source known to contain parasites and most likely bacteria/viruses. It would make an excellent 3rd stage in a four staged system (1 micron sediment to carbon block to ro membrane to uv filter).

Now if you would have said it will not remove all living organisms I would be in total agreement ;)

[Eddie]

I just new I was going to catch some flack for that :D

But your right in so far as I wouldn't trust it as my only line of defense against cantaminates from an untreated water source known to contain parasites and most likely bacteria/viruses. It would make an excellent 3rd stage in a four staged system (1 micron sediment to carbon block to ro membrane to uv filter).

I was thinking of it in sense as being added to a system and not to clean source/tap water. :o You are definitely correct. ;)

[saikung]

Many thanks guys for those quick responses. Here I was thinking by having a continuous water turnover I was going to give my discus the perfect water quality they thrive on. A 4 stage cleaning process rather defeats my objectives. I also have an outside pond and the water louse caused serious problems with my Koi but since I replaced with Goldfish no problems at all for some unexplained reason. The Koi are now in a river [same water] but faster flowing and thriving.My water source is a clean stream that occurs naturally from an underground flow further up the hill. I drink it so it must be OK presumably the louses cant find my gills???. I think I will try with a few discus to start with and see how it goes as doing 50% water changes is a bit complicated and the official water supply has a PH of 9.5

[nc0gnet0]

The 4 stages I defined are pretty simply, any good RO system will have 3 of them and you would just need to add the uv filter at the end. You would however need a pump capable of producing 75psi from the water source to the RO filter, and this is where your expense would lie, both being the cost of the pump and then the cost of running it 24/7/365. The RO filter with UV can be had for anywhere from $200.00 to $500.00 depending on a few things such as output per day etc.

[saikung]

Again many thanks for that most useful advice. I am off tomorrow to the shop to see what they have and at what price. If I am going to all the expense of having a custom made tank and hopefully some good discus eventually it doesnt make sense to cut corners on t the water quality. I am still hoping I can have a continuous water change to avoid the daily hassle of doing it manually.!!

[tcyiu]

WOW. I am so jealous that you can have a clean water source that supplies both a pond AND a river. AND in HK where the real estate prices are insane.

Are you in the New Territories?

If I were ever fortunate enough to have your situation, here's what I would do:

1. Settling container to remove sediments. (Overflow from this can go straight to you pond or river).
2. Pump clean water through a multi-stage filter. If your water parameters are good, you might only need progressively finer meshes (i.e. no resin filters, activated carbon etc.).

At this point, the water is pretty clear, but "may" still contain bacteria pests.
3. This is where I would use either a big UV sterilizer or an ozone chamber (with carbon bed) to kill whatever is left over. (Personally, I would favor the UV sterilizer since I'm a bit leary of ozone).

Voila. Water that can then be used to feed a continuous WC system.

Man, I am so jealous! I'll be in HK in 10 days. I'm sure that I will be thinking of nothing else but your set up as my plane lands :-)

Tim

P.S. One additional thought, being notoriously cheap, I would try to use gravity feed instead of a pump for step 2. Depending on how far up the hill you can place the settling container, gravity may create enough pressure to force the water through the filter.

[saikung]

Hi TC
A very useful and informative series of comments for which many thanks. Yes I live out in Sai Kung in the New Territories. My water source comes naturally out of the hillside about 200 metres on the hill above the house, I have a small holding/settling reservoir which is about 40 M higher than my house so the pressure is OK but not enough to be pumped into the tank. I also have to contend with bits of leaves and other 'things' eg louse.
I have tried a very fine sieve but it clogged up in 10 mins so I will now re-route via a much larger sieve which I can empty by hand. I am getting the largest UV filter possible and the external pump is under the tank and fed by gravity and pumped back via the UV. This does aloow untreated water into the tank but I think the riska re minimal as it will be changing constantly. A complication I have is that it has to be closed down during a storm/typhoon as the water gets very muddy so as you can see it is not utopia!!!

[tcyiu]

Hi TC
A very useful and informative series of comments for which many thanks. Yes I live out in Sai Kung in the New Territories. My water source comes naturally out of the hillside about 200 metres on the hill above the house, I have a small holding/settling reservoir which is about 40 M higher than my house so the pressure is OK but not enough to be pumped into the tank. I also have to contend with bits of leaves and other 'things' eg louse.
I have tried a very fine sieve but it clogged up in 10 mins so I will now re-route via a much larger sieve which I can empty by hand. I am getting the largest UV filter possible and the external pump is under the tank and fed by gravity and pumped back via the UV. This does aloow untreated water into the tank but I think the riska re minimal as it will be changing constantly. A complication I have is that it has to be closed down during a storm/typhoon as the water gets very muddy so as you can see it is not utopia!!!


Very interesting. I would have thought that 40M would be sufficient height difference to produce a good amount of pressure. If you can arrange a series of settling tanks, with progressively finer meshes, that should help even when typhoons hit. i.e. I was thinking of a mesh with 1cm square, progressing in steps down to micro size holes. In that way, no one mesh clogs quickly.

As for introducing untreated water, I wouldn't. Perhaps I am being ultra cautious, but think of this: you are living in an area where the natural pathogens thrive in conditions that are similar to what discus need.

In the higher latitudes, our pathogens tend to be cold water variety that do not do well in warm, less oxygenated waters.

Tim

[saikung]

It will be some time before I can tell whether this plan will be safe enough for the discus. The tank is being made in China and will be available at the end of the month. Then I will have a month or so to get the filter working reasonably efficiently with some starter fish. During this time I will check how my pretank sieves work and make adjustment accordingly. I have got Fluval FX5 which is rated at 900 gallons an hour for a 100 gallon tank although I wont have it on full power I think that plus a large UV filter will keep the water reasonably clean. During the cold season I will have to slow down new water input to ensure the two heaters can keep the tempreture constant

[waj8]

Very interesting. I would have thought that 40M would be sufficient height difference to produce a good amount of pressure. I

It is possible that you could have a gravity system that would produce about 45 PSI. That is similar to most household pressure where I come from. The reason you don't get a lot of pressure now is probably because of friction losses due to the type and size of pipe you have. You could possibly change the pipe and greatly reduce the friction loss. Try this calculator: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html

[saikung]

You are spot on. I have an antiquated water system which was installed in 1956 and the pipes are corroded and hence the water pressure is weak. I use my natural hillside water for cooking,drinking etc but the Goverement supply for electic water heater, washing machine etc. Too replace the whole reservoir set up is far too expensive so I have to work with what I have got. Thanks for your concern and the link

[tcyiu]

It is possible that you could have a gravity system that would produce about 45 PSI. That is similar to most household pressure where I come from. The reason you don't get a lot of pressure now is probably because of friction losses due to the type and size of pipe you have. You could possibly change the pipe and greatly reduce the friction loss. Try this calculator: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html

Cool link.

BTW, I wonder if you were to use large size flexible hose, if this would help. Rigid pipes bend at right angles. Flexible hoses could allow for more efficient flow. Of course for costs reasons, it would have to be Chinese made, and then the question is, will the water be safe for the fish (i.e. volatile plasticizers leaching into the water).

Tim

[saikung]

I think I am getting deeper into this than I expected!!! The problem is that I cant have 100 gallons of new water an hour going through the tank as my reservoir wont handle that amount in the winter [our dry season]. Also it has to supply my outside pond and aviaries etc.
So my plan is/was to have a trickle enter continuously so that about 100 gallons a day ie a total water change was done.
So a pump on the input pipe would not work. Hence my plan to pass it through a series of gauze wire filters to remove most of the bugs/debris before it is gets recirculated through the external pump and UV filter.
I have had 6 X 2'' test discus for 6 weeks in a 50 gallon tank of untreated non sieved hillside water and so far they are thriving so maybe OK