Wild Discus - Strange feces

[foreese]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Wild brown discus became bloated, not too much but enough to notice it wasn't a large feeding. Now, still bloated the specimen has clear feces with dark spots in it.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Specimen is staying in its territory and darkens up when in it. Still bloated, still has clear (white) feces.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

I have dosed with Epsom salt three times at 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons. Assumed the specimen had blockage.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
75 gallon, 3 months, 5 wild discus 5'-7', 10 cory's (Haraldschultzi), two L133 (i think)


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Water change ~50% every two three days, been running for 3 months, Sand bottom, Use a combination of RO and city water.


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 86f

- ph 7.0-7.3

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading <5

- well water ____

- municipal water yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
No

[boxters]

Wilds really don't do well at such a high ph in my opinion. It sounds like an intestinal parasite. Best treatment is metronidazole

[foreese]

Thanks, I was under the impression that Symphysodon haraldi was very adaptable to PH and 7.0-7.5 would be fine.

Regardless, I was planning on moving the specimen to a QT tank this evening once I have the PH stable. I'll bring it down slowly and treat with Metro.

Can I treat the main tank with Metro as well or in lieu of the QT tank. That way everybody gets dosed?

[Apistomaster]

I have bred many pairs of wild S. haraldi successfully in tap water with a pH of 7.6 and 475 ppm TDS. You are correct that this species is adaptable and can thrive in your water.
I have 6 adult wild Alenquers which have been doing fine for over 2-1/2 years in water with a pH of 7.4 and a TDS of 340 ppm.

The fish is diseased. Almost certainly by more than one type of parasites.
I have never found any sense in using Epsom salts. Discus do not really get constipated in the sense mammals do. It could have a big tape worm obstructing it gut. What use is Epsom salts for that? You only make the water much harder.

If it can be saved it will only happen is you isolate it in a bare treatment tank. I use a 10 gal tank and no tank light, just the ambient light is sufficient and is calming to the fish. for a single adult wild Discus. I would use a combination of praziquantel, flubendazole and metroniadazole. If it has bloody, ragged fins I might add a tbs of rock salt per gal for 5 days and elevate the temperature to about 90*F. Elevated temperatures are generally helpful whenever treating a sick Discus. Just hold it high no more than 7 days and supply a lot of aeration. Bring the temperature down to 86. After 5 to7 days, change nearly all the water with fresh aged water and replace the 3 medications. I would continue treatment for 30 days and change 2/3 the water every 3rd or 4th day and replace all medications removed. It takes about 30 days to kill latent hatching parasite eggs. I only feed a fish live black worms during treatment as that may be the only food it will eat and they live until eaten or may be removed easily enough should the medication kill them. I don't think they will however while using that much salt they will not last long but that may not kill them before they are eaten. Use small feedings frequently if it is eating the worms.
Your description is that of a fish in an advanced stage of disease. It is not possible to save every Discus which gets that ill. It is much more effective to treat all new wild Discus this way when you get them. then you know you have done about everything you could have done. Unless they arrive really beaten up I wouldn't bother using the rock salt.

The only sort of "constipation" I have seen in 45 years of keeping and breeding Discus is among juvenile domestic Discus which have been fed a lot of frozen food, live black worms and dry food pellets. The dried food absorbs water on an already full gut and some gas bubbles form in the alimentary system throwing the fish out of balance. The fish may struggle to maintain equilibrium with it's head down. If you do not feed the struggling fish you will eventually see it vent the gas from it's cloaca and it will regain it's equilibrium.

Any one who has kept many wild Discus knows they will lose an occasional fish regardless of any heroic treatments they may know. Nearly all reputable exporters and importers treat their Discus for various parasites but unless you do so yourself you cannot be assured the treatments were comprehensive and of sufficient duration. It is not possible to kill every parasite so it is not out of line to repeat treatments every year or so.
Best of luck to you and your fish.

[Eddie]

Does sound like internal parasite. Also what foods do you feed?

[foreese]

sera pellets

[Eddie]

sera pellets


Okay, thats fine.

And you can treat the main tank with metro, just to prevent the issue from recurring. Since they are wilds and may need to a clean-up. Might be a good idea to deworm them also.

Eddie

[foreese]

So I am dosing the main tank, I did a 50% w/c and dosed 75gal's with 1/4 teaspoon metro per 20gal's. I was planning on dosing for 5 days. Should I do a w/c before each dose?

[Eddie]

So I am dosing the main tank, I did a 50% w/c and dosed 75gal's with 1/4 teaspoon metro per 20gal's. I was planning on dosing for 5 days. Should I do a w/c before each dose?

You can if you want but it is not needed in a community tank. Generally treatments will be held in a hospital tank with less water content. Metro doesn't convert into anything toxic to the fish and it is basically used up after about 8-12 hours depending on the amount used/temperature.

[foreese]

So I moved this specimen to a hospital tank since it hasn't gotten any better. It is still acting ok, but since I QT it, the bloat appears to be worse.

I have added 2 tbsp per 10 gallons of espom salt with what looks like stomach lining. After 90% WC treated with Kanaplex from Seachem, again so far no improvement.

Not sure what to do to clear the blockage. Again the specimen is acting fine and will eat if I feed it. Perhaps some Kanaplex in the food?

Should I use a dewormer maybe? or Metro?

Some pictures below:

http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo360/foreese/XLG%20Nhamunda/Bloated%20Discus/IMG_0292.jpg
http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo360/foreese/XLG%20Nhamunda/Bloated%20Discus/IMG_0286.jpg

Additionally, here is a link to a webcam of this specimen.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/wild-discus-tank

[Eddie]

Definitely looks bacterial. I wouldn't be feeding anything right now. Keep the Epsom at 2 tbsp/10 gallons and make sure you are treating with the right amount of Kanamycin. Kanaplex directions are 1/5 of the minimum amount of Kanamycin. You'll actually want to use one level teaspoon per each gallon. No biofiltration because it will kill nitrifying bacteria at this amount.

Eddie

[Apistomaster]

I would simultaneously treat them with flubendazole, praziquantel, metroniadazole, and a broad spectrum antibiotic but I do not believe Epsoms salts has any place in the treatment of Discus. Plain salt will cause a similar salinity gradient and differential osmotic pressure without making the water rock hard.
True constipation is probably not something that happens to discus as we generally define the term.

[Eddie]

I would simultaneously treat them with flubendazole, praziquantel, metroniadazole, and a broad spectrum antibiotic but I do not believe Epsoms salts has any place in the treatment of Discus. Plain salt will cause a similar salinity gradient and differential osmotic pressure without making the water rock hard.
True constipation is probably not something that happens to discus as we generally define the term.


Funny how the success rate of Epsom Salt treatments are so common. There is no need for malatav cocktails in treating discus IMO. But we all have our ways and some happen to prove more effective than others. ;)

[Apistomaster]

Problems like this can occur and the "cure" often has nothing to do with the resolution.
These things often resolve themselves but the "cure" gets the credit.
What is important is the problem was resolved.