Sump questions and then some!

[Discus master]

I can understnd the concept of a gravity feed sump from a pre drilled tank, what I don't understand is how a syphon feed system works. What I mean is how do you know how fast the water is comming out of your syphon in relationship to your return pump in the sump? I would be worried that either to much water would eneter the sump to fast that the pump could not handle it and the syphon would break due to the tube being exposed to sir in the tank. Or the flow from the syphon would be to slow the pump emptys the sump runs dry not good and at the same time over flows you tank not good either. With a gravity feed pr drilled tank the flow comming into the sump will be equal to the pump in the sump returning the flow, so theres no problem there. Also I guess you only set the intake tube for a pre drilled just bellow the surface line some so if you lose power then only like an inch would actually drain into the sump and assuming the sump is large enough to hold that watter you would be good there. Same concept tot he syphon feed method in that regards but still i am not so sure hom the whole flow works as you can see. I just emptied a 30 well ok 29 gallon tank I plan on turrning into a wet dry, I have a 55 running a canister filter at the momment but my wife the warden is letting me up grade to a 110 which is the perfect size for our home becuase of its foot print and all. well I plan on running the canister in conjunction with the wet dry but the tank i am buying will may not be pre drilled so I need help here. In terms of GPH pump and so forth I was thinking of running the system on the 55 a few months a head of time in order to see the BIO media.

Thanks for all you help, I did not mean to jack the thread but the question of sumps have been stiring in my head for a long long time and reading this thread really sparked some much needed answers again thank you for your help and adice in advance as always.:angel:

PS I think I will prob start my own thread for this as well So I do not high jack this thread anymore than I already did. Sorry again:D

[baley]

This is what I found out when setting up my overflow for my saltwater tank.
When you get the over flow box, it will be rated for GPH. You get a pump rated for the same GPH and use that as your return pump. I installed a shut off valve on mine so I could regulate the output if needed, but I didnt need it. When you have the GPH overflow matched with the pump, it all evens out. I did buy and overflow box that uses an Aqualifter to maintain suction. You want this because if the power goes out and you lose the return overflow gravity suction, your return pump will just keep on pumping until your sump is empty. Not a good thing to happen. With the Aqualifter assistance, when the power returns, it will start the flow again in your overflow box. I used this setup for over 3 years with not one problem.

[Discus master]

This is what I found out when setting up my overflow for my saltwater tank.
When you get the over flow box, it will be rated for GPH. You get a pump rated for the same GPH and use that as your return pump. I installed a shut off valve on mine so I could regulate the output if needed, but I didnt need it. When you have the GPH overflow matched with the pump, it all evens out. I did buy and overflow box that uses an Aqualifter to maintain suction. You want this because if the power goes out and you lose the return overflow gravity suction, your return pump will just keep on pumping until your sump is empty. Not a good thing to happen. With the Aqualifter assistance, when the power returns, it will start the flow again in your overflow box. I used this setup for over 3 years with not one problem.

Youll have to elaborate a bit more on the aqualifter and how you plumbed that into the overflow box and how does this not ffect the rte at which the water enters the sump?? if there is an motor actually pushing the water into the sump wouldnt this cause problems? or maybe I do not understand what an aqualifter does exactly can you provide a link to the product and explain how you put this inot your design it sounds like a good idea? Thank you for all the help DM

[baley]

I use a CPR overflow box. What the aqualifter does remove the air gap and keep the water level high enough to go over the back of the tank and then gravity takes over. The aqualifter is about the size of a small air pump but it pulls in water. One small air hose is connected to one side of the aqualifter and a small air hose is connected to the other side and dumps back into the tank. Here is a link http://www.marinedepot.com/overflow_boxes_cpr-ap.html
Its hard to explain how the work, but once you check out the link, I'm sure you will figure it out. If not, I will help you all I can.

[Discus master]

I use a CPR overflow box. What the aqualifter does remove the air gap and keep the water level high enough to go over the back of the tank and then gravity takes over. The aqualifter is about the size of a small air pump but it pulls in water. One small air hose is connected to one side of the aqualifter and a small air hose is connected to the other side and dumps back into the tank. Here is a link http://www.marinedepot.com/overflow_boxes_cpr-ap.html
Its hard to explain how the work, but once you check out the link, I'm sure you will figure it out. If not, I will help you all I can.

I got you, now let me ask this real quick, what keeps the sump from over flowing if the power goes out? wont the aqualifter keep pulling water up and out of the tank filling the sump over flowing it? or do you just sit the aqualifter just below the water level so it would suck air not water before you would have a situation, oh and thanks for the link I will definately check that out. How much those thing cost, I am sure it has the price in the link.

Thanks again for all your help!

[baley]

No it wont keep pulling water or air, remember your power is out = no power to the aqualifter. The over flow box is set in the aquarium just below the water lever. You can adjust this to what ever height you want. The aqualifter pulls the air out of the top of the overflow box and then starts pulling water up so it can flow over the back of the tank, starting the suction action and down to the sump. Remember on piece of are tubing is attached to the top over your overflow box, and another that returns to the tank.When the power goes out only so much water can enter the overflow box before it is at or above the remaining water in the tank. Once it has drained the top water off, no more water can go into the sump because it cant flow into the overflow box. What I like about the addition of the aqualifter is that when the power comes back on and the sump pump starts pushing water back to the tank, the aqualifter is running to and is removing the air gap in the overflow box so when the water in the tank is high enough to spill into the overflow box, it and immediately start flowing back to the sump. Without the aqualifter, the sump starts pushing water back into the tank, but there is nothing the start the gravity feed because there is an air space in the overflow. What I do is set the box into the tank so its about 1 inch below the water level, fill the sump 1/2 full then start the return pump. Once everything is running mark the water level on the sump. Shut everything off and let the water flow back into the sump. Remember you will only be removing the top inch of water in the tank so don't worry about an over flow in the sump. Mark the height of the water in the sump after all the water that can has been drained from the tank and mark the water level in the sump again. Now measure how much of an increase in water level is in the sump between when the pump is running and when its not. Lets say you had 3 inches of an increase in the sump. Now you know you can fill the sump say 4 inches from the top and turn every thing back on. Now if the power goes out you know only 3 inches of water can return to the sump, so you have an inch of safety and it cant over flow. You have increased the water volume of you tank by just about the size of your sump, minus the inch of space you have for safety and the water volume you have taken up with the size of you return pump. I have a 57 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump, so basically I have about a 75 gallon water supply. This setup has worked for me for several years with no problems. When the power goes out and then back on, I know I dont have to worry as long as the aqualifter is working. You need to check it out every once in a while when you are looking at your tank to make sure you see a small stream of water coming out of the air hose attached to to it and returned to the tank, then you know all is well.

[uberdave]

I find that your intake hole is alot smaller than your outake. my 3/4" with a 1600 Gph pump needs a 1 1/4" hole going to the sump. the problem with the outtake at full capacity to accommodate for the pump wll make a load slurping noise. but then again, discus tanks don't need that much water flow. just to show you that the intake usually needs a bigger hole. so its best to get a pump that provides just enough for the outtake hole, though if too much power form your pump, add something in the intake hole that restrict some flow.

[Danimal]

sumps are good filters but a big pain, you have to worry about them when ever you go away for a few days,
overflows, power outage, water evaporatiion, etc.....

[baley]

sumps are good filters but a big pain, you have to worry about them when ever you go away for a few days,
overflows, power outage, water evaporatiion, etc.....

We have to agree to disagree then. I love them. I don't worry about it when I'm gone at all.
1. Overflows = the system I have CANT overflow the sump, there is only so much water that can be drawn from the tank. Yes the tank can over flow if the overflow drain hose becomes clogged. That's why I got a box with two drain tubes.
2. Power outage = again, if the power goes out and comes back on, the aqualifter starts the syphin again.
3. Evaporation = actually it makes it less of a problem. You have much more water to start with. So if a gallon or two evaporate in the tank, the volume is replaced by the sump water. This keeps your water parameters much more stable.
I guess its "to each his own". You have your opinion and that is fine. I have used my system for years with not one problem.

[Crockett]

When it comes to the worries / issues of a sump my advice is to go with the Oceanic products with the Mega flow overflow system (see pics below) and you’re good. When it comes to sumps you may pay a bit more for the Oceanic / Mega flow products but they work really well and in my opinion are worth the extra expense. I have always used an Oceanic sump model 3 (see pic below) on my 175 gallon Oceanic tank, and I am a big fan of this sump. I also use a small submergible filter in the sump that picks up small particles that didn’t get filtered out; this keeps the bottom of the sump spotless without any particles, and helps enhance the polishing of the water. I use a Mag drive12 submergible pump in the sump. The system is super quiet and I would never use anything else. I also plumbed the returns with PVC and used the hose that comes with the sump for the two outlets. I also placed two ball values on returns line to control the flow rate; however I have never needed to dial it back because the Mag drive 12 seems to the perfect pump for the size tank I have.


The pic I posted may be the model 1 or 2 because it shows just one return and one outlet. The model 3 has two of each, but basically looks very similar to the picture.

[Darrell Ward]

sumps are good filters but a big pain, you have to worry about them when ever you go away for a few days,
overflows, power outage, water evaporatiion, etc.....

With a properly set up sump system, there is no reason to have to worry about it. I have run sumps for many years. First of all, you need to go with a drilled tank. A hang on the back box is asking for problems. If you have a properly sized sump to handle the water in the lines and boxes when you pull the plug, there will be no overflow. You should always have a bulkhead placed near the bottom of the sump for an external pump's suction line, so that it will always be underwater, and the pump can never lose prime, or use submersible pumps in the sump itself. In the event of a power outage, the system should work as if nothing happened when power returns. Use check valves on return lines. If you are not doing water changes before your sump evaporates all it's water, you should sell the tank immediately! You should not be keeping fish.

[baley]

With a properly set up sump system, there is no reason to have to worry about it. I have run sumps for many years. First of all, you need to go with a drilled tank. A hang on the back box is asking for problems. If you have a properly sized sump to handle the water in the lines and boxes when you pull the plug, there will be no overflow. You should always have a bulkhead placed near the bottom of the sump for an external pump's suction line, so that it will always be underwater, and the pump can never lose prime, or use submersible pumps in the sump itself. In the event of a power outage, the system should work as if nothing happened when power returns. Use check valves on return lines. If you are not doing water changes before your sump evaporates all it's water, you should sell the tank immediately! You should not be keeping fish.

Boy do I feel dumb!!:crazy: after reading your first post again I agree with Crockett 100%. I thought you weren't using a pre drilled tank. I was giving you information for a tank that was not drilled. A pre drilled tank is the way to go. It is the easiest setup to have and the safest.
I am very sorry for the confusion!!

[Danimal]

boy, i wish i new everything like Darrell Ward
my sump was on SW set up and you dont do WC as often

dan

[2wheelsx2]

boy, i wish i new everything like Darrell Ward
my sump was on SW set up and you dont do WC as often

dan

Wouldn't that be even easier, since you would just top up the sump without worrying about increasing TDS?:confused: I'm not a salty so I don't know, but that's what the guys around here do. They even run auto topoffs.

[Danimal]

i guess so if you are home all of the time, i did use a auto top off and it worked most of the time, dont get me wrong a sump is a great way to go if you have the time.
for me it seems there are too many things that can go wrong when your not at home to catch them

[Darrell Ward]

boy, i wish i new everything like Darrell Ward
my sump was on SW set up and you dont do WC as often

dan

Jerk!

[Danimal]

u started it.......

[waj8]

i guess so if you are home all of the time, i did use a auto top off and it worked most of the time, dont get me wrong a sump is a great way to go if you have the time.
for me it seems there are too many things that can go wrong when your not at home to catch them

I have never had a problem. I don't really see the difference between a sump system and other systems. I can shut the power off and nothing happens. The sump just fills with water until the tank level drops to the overflow level. I use an overflow box as well. requires almost no maintenance. When I do water changes, there is no issue either. The overflow box just maintains the siphon.

The only way something can go wrong with a drilled tank is if the overflow becomes plugged somehow. In that case the pump capacity exceeds the overflow capacity and the tank can overflow. The pump can run dry and you ruin your pump. I would definitely use an overflow that well exceeds the pump capacity.