Unique Problem with acclimation

[Fish Finatics]

I am not sure if I am posting this in the right area. I am new to the forum so please excuse me. Seems like I have seen acclimation covered somewhere but can't find it now.

At any rate I have a highly unusual problem. I thought I would be a natural for discus when I first got into keeping discus a few years back. I am reminded every time a guest shows up carting their water bottles how lucky we are in most respects but not all.

Breeders these days keep their fish in somewhat neutral range which makes them better suited for most people who want to keep discus. I am very upfront when I contact someone wishing to buy their discus. I immediately announce our water perimeters. People either think I must be tapping into a still outback somewhere or just do not respond at all. My pH is 6.0 tap water.

This is where I need your help: I devised a 38 gal. quarentine tank, live planted (non-planted ((of course)) hospital tank elsewhere if needed) in which I keep cardinal tetras and rummy noses to keep the biological system going. Discus Madness is the ONLY breeder/importer thus far willing to sell to me other than wild caught discus which I want anyway. A downward pH adjustment from (7.0 to 6.0) that huge would be lethal to discus so breeders are extremely apprehensive to sell to me, especially non-wild discus.

I would like to improve my stock and need discus reputable breeders who will sell to me in order to do that. I am looking for ideas as to how I can improve my acclimation process. When I have found someone who will actually sell to me, mainly Discus Madness thus far and private owners, I adjust my water in my quarentine tank to match their water perimeters. Just before the fish is set to arrive I drop the water level way down lowering the spray bar so as not to create too much noise or turbulance. I use a 5 gal. marine drip bottle filled with water from the tank the discus will actually be going into. Most breeders want you to put the discus into their perm. home right away after temp. acclimation but I do not have that option. I MUST rely on a quarentine tank. Depending on how big the water perimeter gap, this drip system may take a few days or a few weeks (with me continueing to remove water from the quarentine tank and replace it with dripped in water) but I have not lost any fish doing it this way. I would appreciate any ideas, especially from breeder that would further insure the sucess of acclimating new discus.

Thank You Very Much :)

[Eddie]

Quick question, your PH is 6.0 out of tap. What is the PH after 24 hours of aeration? Reason being is that your water may contain high amounts of dissolved co2 that will lower your PH. Once the co2 is gassed off, your PH may stabilize at a higher reading.

And I find it strange that a person will not sell you discus because of a low PH. Sounds like you need to check with one of the sponsors, they'll help you BIG time.

Eddie

[Danimal]

call Al from RockyMouthain Discus and tell him up front about your PH i am sure he will come up with something to help you get some fish

[Fish Finatics]

I do not airate my water and keep the oxygen levels in my tank at around 12 consistantly in the hopes of keeping the pH up. My systems are and must be kept really tweaked, especially since I use some large Eheims on a few of my discus tanks!!!! I've had a pH crash in the past when I tried adding CO2 under poor advisement. I also have to limit my driftwood due to leaching tannins. Yes I have a very unusual problem and after 40 years of fish keeping I do know my way around a bit!!!! Another top breeder I've been communicating with on this problem told me in no uncertain terms keep with Hans. I plan on doing so.

Trust me, they won't!!!! Rocky Mt. Discus never responded to me and I have contacted them twice. Hans is helping me a lot on advice but he too will only sell me wild caught (which is the only way they rec. going). That is a huge, huge pH difference and extremely dangerous and volitile. I think some may want to be sure I have enough experience that I can handle such a system without mishap. My discus love it once acclimated but I have to rely on that acclimation tank which many discus breeders perfer I don't but as I said, with such a dangerously volitile pH out of the tap I have no choice. I walk a very fine line with my tanks. No CO2 (to spite they are planted), no peat, little driftwood and most my driftwood I use is 20 or more years old or older, from my earlier days in the hobby. I am hoping that by my posts I can bring a few breeders out in the open inwhich to learn from but I really want to stick with Hans. :)

[Fish Finatics]

I'll give him a call as the more people I talk to the more I will learn. I have only emailed him in the past and he may have been moving back then (a few years ago) and couldn't catch up!!! :)

[Discus-Hans]

is the ONLY breeder/importer thus far willing to sell to me other than wild caught discus which I want anyway.


Hans is helping me a lot on advice but he too will only sell me wild caught (which is the only way they rec. going).

Hans is 100% willing to sell you Discus as I told you:

> 1 4" Santarem $60
> 1 4" Flachen $65
> 1 4" Red Scribbelt $80
> Shipping $38
------------------------------
> Total $234

We ship on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evening for arrival next morning, let me know at least 2 days in advance so we can put them off food before shipping.

I also told you:

you know, the hardness and the pH for just keeping Discus is not a real big
deal, most important is that it's STABLE.
A lot of people try to keep it all perfect (what that ever is lol) and use
all kind of chemicals to keep it there, this is not the best way.

I also told you:

Where did you get your other Discus, mixing Discus from different sources
can bring you into troubles, now there are sources that are
never a problem when you mix them with ours, there are a few that will give
you guaranteed problems.

Now please stop saying Hans only wants to sell you wilds, I only told you, you've perfect water for Wilds,

Hans

[2wheelsx2]

I don't think this is a unique problem. I'm a discus n00b so I have no advice for you, but our water here has GH and KH of 1 and there are plenty of discus keepers here. I inject CO2 in my tanks. I add a GH booster at water change and I keep crushed coral in my canister filters and keeps all kind of fish, even Central American ones requiring harder and more alkaline water.

I think you just need to speak to a few local fishkeepers to see what they are doing to buffer the water. It's not really that big a deal to throw in a couple of table spoons of a GH booster like http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=7&ReturnOption1=cats&ReturnEdit=2&Returnitemname=&ReturnShowItemStart= with every water change, and it's cheap.

[Fish Finatics]

When I didn't hear back from other than to advise me to go with wilds, I thought you were apprehensive to sell me discus because that is quite a pH difference.

I know you told me that the hardness would not make a difference so I didn't mention my super low hardness factors in my post, only my pH and that I have up from my tap water readings due to heavy oxygenation on all my discus tanks. Ya just kind of vanished after rec. this site but I know you recieve so many emails daily. :o

Yes you also told me it was wise not to mix discus from different breeders. Seems people do that though. I even sent you a regular email yesterday asking you to please reconsider. I am sorry about the misunderstanding, I really am but since I had not heard back from you on the order and needed to rely heavily on the acclimation tank for a transition I thought you were worried about that down transition you told me about and the fact that being in my position, I had to use the acclimation tank.

I am just looking for a better supplier and chose you. Lets face it, you are darn good among the very best in the world and I know that. I was very discouraged when I didn't hear back from you after putting together my order other than the rec. I go with wilds.

This post brightens my day :)

[Fish Finatics]

I've been advised numerous times by top professionals and have seen this for myself, discus do not like chemical boosters and to avoid their use. My hardness levels run neck and neck with yours. Hardness isn't the real problem here but it is certainly why I do not bother to off-gas my water. I also have no nitrates or phosphates. It was the huge down transition for pH that seemed to concern the people I was communicating with. :)

I think I may know who you are. :)

[Fish Finatics]

I think I know who 2wheels is as I have called numerous places for both plants and discus in the past year.

I have held back on some purchases of discus due to our anticipated move but I do need 3 four inchers desperately NOW as my growing out tank has lost some store bought discus (due to having been hormonally color enhanced) I bought some time back. I saw their colors fade shortly after buying them so I quit buying from stores. Discus Madness came highly rec. from fellow discus hobbiests in NJ so I started buying some stuff from them. I am seaking wilds (as long as I am here) or wild looking types, DM does not have these since I have been dealing with them.

I had also bought some supposed wild caught, they are doing fine for the most part thus far. Of course I have an RO unit I use for my reef system but I do not know what the water is at the farm we are currently preparing to buy. I hope to visit it with my realtor this week and will test the water there. That will tell me which direction I need to head for sure. The farm is currently owned by a professional Manhatten photographer and he thinks the water is pretty neutral but I have not tested it yet for discus purposes. With a forseeable move in the near future, I just want to keep my existing tanks up to shoal stocking levels.

2 wheels, you can see by Hans post, he is one of the people who told me not to use chemical boosters/regulators but he is one of several professionals that have told me not to. We take it very hard if we loose one of our discus
and I am not willing to take some risks when it comes to my fish. I use chemicals so sparingly if at all. I have a blue diamond I use as my indicator fish and she lets me know by darkening that she hates the chemicals. :)

[Jhhnn]

Not that I'm any kind of expert, but it's generally advised to quarantine new arrivals for at least a month, anyway.

I'd suggest that any new discus (other than small fry) will likely have no issues with lowering the pH by .25 daily, but, again, it's really outside my recent experience. Years ago, when peat filtered water was supposedly the thing to do, I had no problems using it within those sorts of parameters... starting from tap water of moderate hardness and PH of 7.5-8.0. After some trial and error, I kept the PH for discus at ~6.5...

[Fish Finatics]

Thank You for your input. I just posed another question to the forum regarding the safe rate for lowering pH as we have upgraded our water change system. In the past, on my reef I know I can lower 1 full degree daily but I don't know with discus.

Filtering through peat is not an option in this household. The idea is not as outdated as you might think however as I have run across numerous people who still use peat to further lower their pH. My tap water is already 6.0 pH so I don't have to worry about peat, that is for sure!!!! :D More and more discus breeders I have noticed are also moving away from quarentine tanks. This surprised me also but I try to go by my suppliers rec. as no one knows their fish better than they do. The tank I am putting my new incoming discus in has no other discus as it has been a quarentine tank all along.

Thank you again for your reply.

[kaceyo]

I'm not sure who is advising you but quarenteen tanks are the most important first step you can take when bringing in new fish. I have not heard of anyone who's saying any different.
Earlier Eddie suggested that you aerate your tap water for 24hrs before checking the pH. This should be done to drive out any carbon dioxide that may be keeping your pH low. It's a good idea regardless of your other parameters.
Good luck on your new purchase.

[Fish Finatics]

Thanks for your tips Kacey and Eddie:

You folks were right, boy do I have CO2 in my tap water!!!!!!!!!!!! I just always related the low pH to the super softness of my water.

Got to think about this some since all 4 of my discus tanks are planted.

One thing about this hobby is we are always learning :)



:):):o Wonder how I missed this as I normally test everything for everything but obviously never tested my tap water for CO2 but did oxygen. Puts a whole new slant on things.

[Fish Finatics]

Trust me Tito, I plan on it. I was wrong when I assumed Hans did not want to deal with me other than for wild caught as I had not heard back from him but he is incredibly busy. I don't know how he keeps up with everything, seems to be an amazing man.

I've got three discus on order from him now and have discussed two more in the near future.

NO, I do not plan on dealing with DM anymore! I've been lucky so far but I want better discus anyway and Hans definately has them. :)