Another PH Discussion

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I would like to touch on something I read regarding PH.

"About pH
Discus are very particular about pH. Keep your pH below 7 and above 5.5. The ideal pH for discus is 6. At pH levels above 7, discus are stressed. Below 5.5, the pH is inclined to plunge rapidly, so I find 6 to be comfortable for both the fish and the fishkeeper. Alkalinity and pH are closely related. Hard water naturally tends to be alkaline. Soft water naturally tends to be acidic. This is because of the buffering capacity. Buffering capacity represents the presence of alkalinity (carbonate hardness) and the ability of the water to maintain high pH. It is a chemical balancing act. Just enough carbonate hardness and the pH remains at the desired level, too much carbonate hardness and the pH will remain high, too little carbonate hardness and the pH will crash. Maintain your carbonate hardness at around 10 or 15 dH and you should have no problems with pH. Check your pH with every water change until you are able to get a feel for how your water behaves. If you notice that the pH drops quickly, you must add back carbonate. If your pH resists change to lower values, you must remove carbonate. There are many methods of lowering your pH, most with some form of phosphoric acid, from drops to powders, but one of the gentlest and safest methods is through the use of peat moss. Because the peat adsorbs carbonates and acidifies the water, you should be able to maintain desirable pH and carbonate levels through the use of peat alone".

I currently have a 5 stage RO system that has these features:

Feature:
1st Stage: NSF 5 mic. Sediment
2nd Stage: GAC Carbon
3rd Stage: 5 Micron Coconut Shell Carbon
4th Stage: Membrane 50, 75, 100 GPD TFC
5th Stage: NSF 10" GAC coconut Inline
NSF Tank 3.2 Gallon Draw Down
NSF Faucet: Long Reach, Lead Free

Even using this 5 stage system (TDS .02/.03), my PH does not go below 6.8. How can I get the "ideal" Discus PH of 6.0 to 6.4? My water is aged for 24 to 48 hours with an airstone and powerhead and kept at 84 degrees. But then my ph hits 7.4 to 7.6. Would adding a water softener to my main water line worth the effort to lower ph?

My TDS mixed with 10% tap is between 70 to 80, my kh/gh both under 100.

Yes with all the success stories with breeding in higher ph over 7.4 I just wonder how I can obtain a lower level ph without adding peat to my breeding tank? My planted tank stays steady at 7.4 using 80% RO 20% Tap but i want that lowered to to meet the needs of the discus.

I know many people would ask why? But I feel that if I am going to attempt breeding, I should try and do whats best for the fish.

Also, what is the best ph meter to purchase for under $100.00?

[DiscusOnly]

Why are you messing with the pH? We are talking about domestic discus here right? The general rule regarding pH is not to mess with it if it's stable.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

They are domestic, but I read so many threads saying the lower the better. Its just theory that maybe a lower ph would improve breeding. If I remember right from an article I read many years ago from the Shed Aquarium in Chicago, that said discus like all other fish whether raised in the wild or captivity have internal instincts that their bodies know good or bad water quality, I tend to agree.

[Fish Finatics]

Hey Jeff, I think we are all a bit crazy but love the challenges along with the results obviously.

I have not researched breeding as I am not into that (even though my discus spawn regularly, no fry yet) but I thought peat was good for spawning! I've got to study your email.

Yes agreed pH and hardness/alk go hand in hand but to what extent where discus are concerns I am still trying to learn myself. I too know pH is very important. My friend's grandfather, Michael Reginski (known as the White Russian) traveled with Herbert Axelrod on his early discus expeditions into Brazil which is also where my friend was born and raised. He also did the old TV series, Bring 'Em Back Alive and Jungle Stampeed. I knew my water perimeters were perfect for wild discus because I have been privvy to Reginski's memoirs. He was also vital in the discovery of cardinal tetras and is written up in a fall edition of TFH back in the 60s.

If I wasn't moving (which I planned on doing for this past year but now looks to be materializing) I would have persued wild caught discus (where my love and real interest is) from the start. I am apprehensive to get too many wilds as I do not know what my water conditions will be at the new location. I have a 250 gal reef system that demands RO water and if I have to do RO at the new location for my wilds, I WON'T HAVE A WELL LEFT!!! (that or I need a commerical system and I am not into this for the money LOL

I need to study your post a bit more as you brought up some very interesting and true facts. Great Post Thanks

The only money in this hobby is OUTGOING!!!!!!!!

[Fish Finatics]

I've heard you should bypass any home water conditioner systems. Other hobbiests would know more about this than I do.

Mr. Palumbo (another pro who told me to stay away from chemicals) told me however that he has to filter through peat after using his water softner to knock his pH levels down.

I've also read the ideal pH (happy medium) for keeping most discus is 6.5 which is where I try to target for my tanks via added oxygen to raise my tap water pH. I guess it all depends on what type of discus you keep but another good point that Mr. Palumbo brought up was that all discus origionated from the wild strains so therefor lower pH would seem better overall. :)

[DiscusOnly]

They are domestic, but I read so many threads saying the lower the better. Its just theory that maybe a lower ph would improve breeding. If I remember right from an article I read many years ago from the Shed Aquarium in Chicago, that said discus like all other fish whether raised in the wild or captivity have internal instincts that their bodies know good or bad water quality, I tend to agree.

What are you referring to when you wrote "lower ph would improve breeding"? Are you trying to induce spawning? Do you have pairs that are not giving you good egss, wigglers, frys? What are you trying to improve?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Well Vlam, I would like to try and improve the overall setup which could improve egg count, quality and wigglers.

If the statement is true that I wrote "I read many years ago from the Shed Aquarium in Chicago, that said discus like all other fish whether raised in the wild or captivity have internal instincts that their bodies know good or bad water quality" then I would tend to think that maybe they eat the eggs because they feel the water quality is bad or dangerous to the fry and so forth.

I know we do not understand the reasons why discus do what they do and why they chose to eat their eggs or their fry, but I am to believe it could be part of poor water conditions?

I have been trying to maintain my breeder pair tank with the best possible condition to hopefully get maximum results. I know my pair are not that old, but if I could give them a good start in the right direction then my maximum output (eggs and fry) could be the just rewards?

Just theory is all.

[nc0gnet0]

Jeff,

Just curious, when you say your TDS out of your RO is .02/.03 is that measurement in PPM? I have never seen an RO put out numbers that low without a DI stage. As for a water softner, the only thing it will do for you will increase your output as the membrane has a bit easier time filtering out the Sodium ions than it does calcium and magnesium. But, essentially, an RO unit is a water softner (and then some).

Why don't you just use less tap in with your RO water for your breeding tank? Try a 90% 10% mix and see what that does. Personally I think your barking up the wrong tree for increased egg count etc, and I have a simular setup to you, although I am only using 2 GACs.

I don't even know what percentage RO to tap I use, as I monitor and adjust my breeding water to a consistant TDS level due to the fact my untreated tap water can fluctuate quite a bit. I use a 5 gallon bucket and fill with tap, add some seachem neutral stabilizer to it (it is a decholr as well) and then slowly add this to my RO water until the desired TDS is reached.

Doing it this way my Ph stays pretty close to 7.0. But if you want something that will help your egg count, fertilization etc, I think you would be better served by giving Andrew Soh's Pro-more a try, this coupled with adding some meth blue a few hours after spawn has made all the difference in the world for me.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks nc0gnet0 for your comments. My TDS for my breeding tank range from 70ppm to 85ppm as recommended by some SD breeders.

I do know that my ph has changed of course when I started adding tap to the RO which is why it is now at 7.4/7.6.

Thanks everyone for your insightful responses to this thread. It helps other people and myself understand this hobby a bit more everyday!

I know we all can't like most successful breeders who have the time, patients, money as so forth to breed and produce some amazing quality discus, but I sure as hell am going to try my best and see what happens.

[Fish Finatics]

Heck Jeff, you are a fellow reef keeper. If that does not pre-condition us, I don't know what will! LOL

The great thing about this hobby is that we are ALWAYS learniing.:)

[nc0gnet0]

I do know that my ph has changed of course when I started adding tap to the RO which is why it is now at 7.4/7.6.

It doesn't take much tap to make a big impact on the RO waters Ph, likewise if you were to add a few drops of muratic acid I imagine your Ph would swing waaaaay down as well (and no, I am not recomending that).

Two breeders could have identical TDS readings in two different cities, but that doesn't make their water identical. Not only is it the amount of dissolved solids in your water, but what components make up these disolved solids. Ergo, while one breeder may have great success with a TDS reading of 80 ppm, another may not. I had my success at 40 PPM.

[waj8]

Jeff, KH and pH go hand in hand. At normal CO2 concentrations if the KH goes up so does the pH and vice versa. Without using peat or CO2 injection you really cannot have a Kh over 4 and a pH less than 7. When you add the peat, it screws with the test kit so you don't really know the KH.

I don't know anything about breeding Discus and have no idea if you should or should not adjust your water. Just be careful to not rely on a KH test kit if you are using peat. You will get a false high reading.

[Fish Finatics]

I was think...... Oh No, look out....:)

How old is your RO unit? Do you have guages on it to monitor your water output readings? How often do you change your cartridges and membrane?
Are you testing your RO output?

You have pebbles coming out of your faucet, not quite boulders but......
I only have a four stage unit because I do not need a 5 stage like you. You need to keep tabs (TEST) on your water output readings in order to know when to change your cartridges and membrane. I replace my micron cartridge regularly as I see the sediment build-up. I like the clear containers vs the blue personally, I just think you can see better, especially when it comes to the DI cartridge. I also have a clay problem. :(I replace my carbon and DI cartridges every 8 months or so and I am lucky at that. A long time friend is also my LFS and he has hard water also. He replaces his cartridges every 6 months. One strong indicator is when you are getting nitrate readings your of your RO (a reef keepers trick) water. As another responder pointed out and Hans reminded me, stability in your water perimeters is the most important factor in keeping discus.

Another responder is correct also. With tap water readings like yours, even a little tap water can greatly alter your water perimeters, why I suggested a smaller spawning tank in my private post to you. Much more manageable and not interferring with your display tank perimeters. Also what appears to be a spawning pair may actually be two females. By using a spawning tank you can know if it is the parents other discus eating the eggs and if in fact it is two females. My young spawning pairs produced small clutches of eggs at first but soon after I started getting these massive amounts of eggs.

Filtering through peat also helps if your water does prove to be that hard after RO filtering. It is safe and effective and gently lowers your pH levels over time. You must remember to replace the peat probably no more than every three weeks however because peat will leach impurities back into your tank once saturation is reached. It can literally flood your tank if not kept on top of. I do not think you want or need this on your display tank. DO NOT use carbon to remove the discoloration if you do decide to use peat on your display discus tank.

Just more food for thought :)

[Fish Finatics]

Interesting.....How did you learn this? I use Saifert test kits and have not had this problem with false KH readings (they are always "belly low") when I used peat and I use to use it all the time but then again....Salifert test kits are more geared towards marine keeping! :confused:

Hmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DiscusLoverJeff]

My 50 GPD RO unit is only 5 months old. The water directly from the unit before it hits the holding tank has a ph of 6.2/6.4, after 24 hours in an aerated container it goes to 7.0 before adding tap water, 7.6 after adding 10% tap.

[waj8]

Interesting.....How did you learn this? I use Saifert test kits and have not had this problem with false KH readings (they are always "belly low") when I used peat and I use to use it all the time but then again....Salifert test kits are more geared towards marine keeping! :confused:

Hmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I probably learned this from reading the Krib and have seen it posted several other times over the years. As far as I know, all Kh test kits measure alkalinity so I expect the Salifert test kit is no different. It is easy to test for the effect that peat has on a Kh test kit. Just aerate a sample of peat water and test the Kh and pH. At that point the CO2 concentration should be about 2.5 ppm and you can predict the Kh using a CO2/pH/Kh chart. If the Kh is higher than it should be then the test is likely measuring the effect of the peat in addition to carbonate.

[Fish Finatics]

Thanks Kenny

I am going to have to do that one of these days. I do have peat but right now I am not filtering water through peat but use to do it all the time at my last house.

Interesting observation, thanks for sharing :)

[Fish Finatics]

OOOPS

Thanks Wayne NOT KENNY:o

It's early.....................

Do very much appreciate the tip though.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Here is an interesting article I found in the SD archives relating to altering R/O water with R/O Right.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-74115.html

I don't know why my ph spikes for me from adding 10% tap to my R/O water (containers are rubbermaid 34 gallons) but once I can figure a "SAFE" way to get it under control and stable I will leave it be at 7.4/7.6.

[pcsb23]

I use re-mineralised RO water for my discus, wilds, Asians and German. Another forum/club I am a member on runs a discus show (next one in April next year;)) and I prepare all the water there too. I gurantee the water to be a conductivity of 200 microsiemens +/-10 (TDS 100 +/-5) and a pH of 6.8 +/- 0.2 and it always is, no matter the source water parameters.

Using RO and salts is expensive, but imo worth it. I use TMC discus pro and TMC re-min salts blended together.

On my own fish they run in a conductivity of 130 (TDS 65) or so and a pH of 6. I do regular water changes so pH swings are small, if any. If I want a lower pH I use more discus pro, a higher pH use more standard re-min.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

My water in my holding tanks now have TDS between 70 and 85. So my tanks are stable. Maybe I need not focus so much on the ph and keep focus on the TDS, its much easier to control.

[pcsb23]

My water in my holding tanks now have TDS between 70 and 85. So my tanks are stable. Maybe I need not focus so much on the ph and keep focus on the TDS, its much easier to control.Provided the manner of controlling the pH is under your control then I agree.