Introduced new fish - hoping for the best

[aalbina]

Well after 4 weeks in quarantine, I introduced 12 Rummynose tetras and a bristlenose Pleco into the main discus tank. Hoping for the best! I treated the quarantine tank (10 gallon in a different room) with praziquantel powder for gill flukes and worms for about 14 of those 2 weeks. I didn't see any worms expelled nor any signs of gill flukes but I treated anyway - my choice - I know some of you don't do this unless you see a reason.

Hoping for the best!

Adam

[Eddie]

I think it was a good move Adam. Hope everything goes well. ;)

All the best,

Eddie

[Jennie]

I want to know if he got those from Al??

[aalbina]

Al doesn't have any yet - he still trying to get them to breed for him. Got them at a mom and pop shop in town.

Adam

[Jennie]

Thanks Adam

[Second Hand Pat]

So question here, if you are introducing discus to an existing tank with no discus yet, would it be prudent to treat the main tank to ensure the existing fish are clean?

[aalbina]

So - after 8 hours of introduction of the rummies and BN - I have the runt of the three discus breathing a little faster and one gill slightly clamped. The other two seem fine. Not panicking yet and not treating yet.

Adam

[Jennie]

Pat his discus are clean, they're from Al. It's his rummies and BN he treated.

[aalbina]

So question here, if you are introducing discus to an existing tank with no discus yet, would it be prudent to treat the main tank to ensure the existing fish are clean?

You know - I'm no authority but I definitely would. Quarantine really goes both ways. As discus keepers we are generally more concerned with our 150 dollar fish and less concerned with 4.00 fish so we give the priority to the discus. We like to assume that our discus are clean and everything else is evil but the opposite could very well be true. If you have some strong healthy discus and put them in with other fish - the new critters they bring with them could attack the other fish and they may or may not be up to winning that battle.

For me - if I had a non discus tank into which I was going to add QT'd discus - I would treat tankmates before putting my discus in with them. I would basically treat the main tank like a quarantine tank. I want to make sure that there's nothing in the main tank that could compromise the discus. I can deal with replacing some rummies.

Just my opinion - I know others will not agree.

I quarantined these rummies and pleco for four weeks and treated for flukes and worms and I still think something came with them to the discus tank. I've already got one discus with a clamped gill and fast breathing.

Added some salt and I'm going to keep the water clean and watch like a hawk for 24 hours.

It almost doesn't seem worth the four week effort right now!

Adam

[Jennie]

you added those TM's today?? And already the discus are not right?

[aalbina]

you added those TM's today?? And already the discus are not right?

I added them last night at at 7:00pm. Had the day off - so I noticed the clamped gill at about 12:00 today. Could be just some other little bugs. Not getting any scratching or flashing so I'm not treating. This little one gets picked on a lot so one of the others could have hit her on a gill plate and she's just sore.

I added 1 tbl spoon per gallon of aquarium salt to the tank and her breathing is better - could just be some other aggravating parasite. I'm going to resist the urge to medicate at all until I see some more conclusive signs of something worth medicating for!

At this early stage - salt and clean water are my treatment.

Adam

[Jennie]

good plan:)

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat his discus are clean, they're from Al. It's his rummies and BN he treated.

DL, Me bad, I do not believe my post was well worded. I was asking about treating your main tank ( with rummy noses etc but no discus) with praziquantel powder before adding discus to ensure the existing tank population is clean as a preventative measure.

Thanks Adam for your opinion and sure does make sense to me. I really do hope that all is going to be well with your discus. I read one of your earlier threads and know there are lots of hard won lessons. Best of luck. Pat

[Jennie]

yes, you worded fine. His main tank has had discus in it, but, for many the general feeling is not to throw meds at fish that are healthy. He got the rummies from a mom/pop store and treated those in QT in an effort not to contaminate his main tank, which may have not worked. I think his one discus may be stressed from the intro of the rummies. Though Adam, I am not sure how well the BN pleco will do with salt.

[aalbina]

Yes - I'm a little worried about him as well. He seems to be ok for now. Only 1 tablespoon per gallon - I usually do 2 - I hope he's ok with this level. If he shows signs of stress - I'll move him back to quarantine. Eddie once told me that plecos are pretty notorious fluke carriers - I suspect if anything brought something to the tank it was him.

Keeping my fingers crossed, my patience in check and my eyes peeled!

Adam

[Jennie]

well that would pretty rapid contamination, so I'm kinda thinking it isn't flukes at all.

[Jennie]

Hey Adam., found this article about salt and plecos.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-86451.html

[Eddie]

Plecos and tetras are sensitive to salt. :o

Strange the discus showed these symptoms after 8 hours. I wouldn't suspect flukes for that quick of an infection, maybe more bacterial.

Adam, are you 100% sure the discus was fine before?

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Thats way to fast for any parasite I know off. Did you study the fish as carefully before you added the pleco's and tetra's as you did afterwards? it really sounds like a pre-existing condition. I don't think your new additions are going to tolerate that level of salt for any length of time.

[pcsb23]

It is nigh on impossible to rid fish of flukes and other parasites. I would even question why we would want to as any exposure after that point will seriously affect the fish.

Assuming water quality is fine then if the fish are affected within a day then the culprit will almost certainly be a parasite.

Fish go through a "bug swap" when mixed, sometimes it shows, sometimes it doesn't. Adam is doing most things right. I would not have used salt, and I most certainly would not waste money on aquarium salt!! ANY SALT will do, with or without YPS, with or without Iodide in. Provided it is salt (NaCl) it will do the job.

Clean water and observation, also treat with patience dosed as many times a day as you want ;)

[aalbina]

Hey Adam., found this article about salt and plecos.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-86451.html

Thanks - I read similar information on plecoworld.com forums.


...
Strange the discus showed these symptoms after 8 hours. I wouldn't suspect flukes for that quick of an infection, maybe more bacterial.

Adam, are you 100% sure the discus was fine before?

Eddie

I'd like to say yes but that would be foolish! I saw none of these symptoms nor any other that would lead me to suspect that anything was wrong with her - but I'm new to discus so I could easily have missed something.


....Did you study the fish as carefully before you added the pleco's and tetra's as you did afterwards? it really sounds like a pre-existing condition. ...

I like to think I did - but probably not. I was very vigilant after adding the tank mates because of the fear of cross contamination.


....

Assuming water quality is fine then if the fish are affected within a day then the culprit will almost certainly be a parasite.

Fish go through a "bug swap" when mixed, sometimes it shows, sometimes it doesn't. ....

.... Clean water and observation, also treat with patience dosed as many times a day as you want ;)

The salt did do the trick at this level of concentration. My water change this morning will remove 30% of the salt. I also raised the temp 2 degrees. She seems fine this morning. I'm leaning toward the bug exchange - but she certainly could have had a pre-existing conditions - symptoms I missed or coincidentally appeared at the same time the tankmates were added.

Thanks everyone for the great help! I'll keep you posted.

Adam

[Eddie]

Good to hear she is doing fine. Keeps us posted!

Eddie

[aalbina]

Good to hear she is doing fine. Keeps us posted!

Eddie

She seems fine now - breathing well, color is back. She spent a little time today segregated from the other two - during that time she darkened up a bit but she looks OK. It seems like all of them are doing more shaking of the dorsal and pelvic fins - and each of them periodically does this little move where they look like they are shaking their head in a NO gesture - side to side a few times. Usually followed by some pectoral fin shaking.

Everyone is eating well. Water parameters have been very stable and are the same as the aged, heated, aerated water (24hrs) in my storage tank:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
pH: 7.0
kH: 40
gH: 120
TDS: 155
Water temp:87

The one that had a problem initially is the runt of the three. She is absolutely the biggest eater and seems immune to bullying at feeding time. Even though she eats like a pig - she doesn't seem to put on weight. After seeing Eddie's cestode pictures.... hmm ... makes me wonder. Of course this should probably be a new thread - but while I have your attention (:

Adam

[Sea Hag]

the runt of the three. She is absolutely the biggest eater and seems immune to bullying at feeding time. Even though she eats like a pig - she doesn't seem to put on weight. After seeing Eddie's cestode pictures.... hmm ... makes me wonder. Of course this should probably be a new thread - but while I have your attention (:

Adam

I also have a runt that eats like a pig and she's not gaining either. I saw Eddie's thread with those cestode pics...I think I may need to treat for those.

I'm glad that your fish are doing better!

[Eddie]

Generally tapeworms won't affect the fish in this manner. There was a study done on 2 groups of fish, 1 group had tapeworms and the other did not. The group with tapeworms actually grew larger than the group without. If a fish eats good and does not take on weight, it would lead me to roundworms, not tapeworms.

Really good read.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa091


Diagnosis

Intestinal nematode infections should be suspected if fish eat well but are thin ("wasted"), if brood stock production declines over time, or if juveniles grow more slowly than expected or are stunted (unusually small). Infections by nematodes in the skin or muscle may be visible or be suspected if lumps or grub-like growths are seen. As described in the section “Disease in Fish,” fish infected with Eustrongylides species often have grossly distended abdomens, although they appear and behave as normal. Nematodes may also infect other tissues and organs in the body resulting in signs related to the organ system affected and the degree of damage.

[brewmaster15]

Folks,
I have to say this as a general comment... As discus keepers we've almost conditioned ourselves into obsessing over our fish and micro managing them into oblivion.....I've done it myself and have to remind myself not to often:).. I had a customer once that would literally sit in front of his 300 gallon and look at the Discus with a magnifying glass in hand... now thats obsessive!! Of Course I got a call everytime he thought he had a had a speck on them and he was prone to medicating needlessly.:angel:


That said...stress of adding more fish to tank could account for all that Adam saw with that one discus breathing a bit hard after the introduction....This is especially the case when you add a bunch of 12 active rummy nose to a tank of sedate discus... Not saying that the symptoms seen should be ignored...but its important to consider all factors when your discus seem off. The salt may have helped, just by its known action on stress and had nothing to do with a possible parasite introduced...its highly unlikely that the relatively tiny amount of salt added had any effect on a parasite...so relieving stress is about all it could have done given the fish is fine now.

My reason for this post isn't to criticize Adam for being concerned about his fish,quite the opposite...Its to use him as an example for others and commend him for keeping a level head, being observant over a possible change in his fishes behavior...but not panicking and dumping a ton of meds in his tank in case his discus somehow caught bird flu or the bubonic plague....I see way too much of that in the hobby.


Adam,
One other general comment....The fish that you refer to as the "runt" really isn't a runt. Its unrelated to the other 2,not the same age or strain...so its hard to really compare it as a runt...Generally when we use the word runt in the hobby its used to refer to a sibling that hasn't grown like the others for genetic reasons... ( Think of the runt puppy in the litter), conversely we say they are stunted if they are a fish that hasn't grown well, but not due to genetic reasons (possibly due to disease, environmental or care given issues)... Because a fish is the smallest in your tank doesn't mean its a runt or stunted..just that its the smallest.:)

Last note.. (mostly for Pat here) ..All fish regardless of if they are discus or not could carry pathogens that affect Discus...To QT discus and not other fish in the tank is asking for problems, and negates the benefits of QT'ing discus,Imo. I treat all fish as if They are Discus if they are going to be in contact with my discus.

Hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

Eddie,


Generally tapeworms won't affect the fish in this manner. There was a study done on 2 groups of fish, 1 group had tapeworms and the other did not. The group with tapeworms actually grew larger than the group without. If a fish eats good and does not take on weight, it would lead me to roundworms, not tapeworms. can you get me info on this study... Its been my experience that fish can be stunted in their growth by any fish parasites that affect the lining of the intestines where absorption of nutrients take place.
that said...and this off track...There is at least one documented species of tapeworm that actually releases or causes the release of a growth hormone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875304

Conversely theres many studies that show the presence of tapeworms affects testosterone and estrogen levels in the host. (read into this as affects fertility and breeding)

Again off topic but thought I'd mention it.

[aalbina]

...

That said...stress of adding more fish to tank could account for all that Adam saw with that one discus breathing a bit hard after the introduction....This is especially the case when you add a bunch of 12 active rummy nose to a tank of sedate discus... Not saying that the symptoms seen should be ignored...but its important to consider all factors when your discus seem off. The salt may have helped, just by its known action on stress and had nothing to do with a possible parasite introduced...its highly unlikely that the relatively tiny amount of salt added had any effect on a parasite...so relieving stress is about all it could have done given the fish is fine now.


That's what I suspected after adding the salt provided relief in about an hour. I also thought the bug swap Paul mentioned may have been eased a bit by the salt. The rummies are far more active than I thought they would be. They are in constant motion! My wife likes the motion - I'm not a fan and apparently neither are the discus...



My reason for this post isn't to criticize Adam for being concerned about his fish,quite the opposite...Its to use him as an example for others and commend him for keeping a level head, being observant over a possible change in his fishes behavior...but not panicking and dumping a ton of meds in his tank in case his discus somehow caught bird flu or the bubonic plague....I see way too much of that in the hobby.


Thanks Al - I have learned something from you in the past few months!




Adam,
One other general comment....The fish that you refer to as the "runt" really isn't a runt. Its unrelated to the other 2,not the same age or strain...so its hard to really compare it as a runt...Generally when we use the word runt in the hobby its used to refer to a sibling that hasn't grown like the others for genetic reasons... ( Think of the runt puppy in the litter), conversely we say they are stunted if they are a fish that hasn't grown well, but not due to genetic reasons (possibly due to disease, environmental or care given issues)... Because a fish is the smallest in your tank doesn't mean its a runt or stunted..just that its the smallest.:)
....


Ah... OK thanks Al. I was wondering if I was using the term correctly. She is the smallest - but you would never know it at feeding time. She takes no crap when food hits the water. She will even nudge out the dominant fish for food! She is a big fan of your black worms. I am concerned that given the amount of food that she eats that she still appears to be the thinnest fish in the tank. I suppose that could quite easily be genetic rather than episodic.

As always - thanks Al.

Adam

[nc0gnet0]

I am concerned that given the amount of food that she eats that she still appears to be the thinnest fish in the tank. I suppose that could quite easily be genetic rather than episodic.

How thin? Curious to see a picture....thin and small are two different conditions...........

[aalbina]

How thin? Curious to see a picture....thin and small are two different conditions...........

Really just thinner than the other two. After looking through pictures here and talking with Al - I think that's just her genetics and lot in life. I don't think there's anything to worry about.

Thanks

Adam

[Eddie]

Eddie,

can you get me info on this study... Its been my experience that fish can be stunted in their growth by any fish parasites that affect the lining of the intestines where absorption of nutrients take place.
that said...and this off track...There is at least one documented species of tapeworm that actually releases or causes the release of a growth hormone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875304

Conversely theres many studies that show the presence of tapeworms affects testosterone and estrogen levels in the host. (read into this as affects fertility and breeding)

Again off topic but thought I'd mention it.


Sure thing Al, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Here is one but not the one I read in the past.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1690587/pdf/10821609.pdf

Eddie

[DerekFF]

Haha, Adam I think you yourself have a disease called "gotta find an issue" disease. I see there have been plenty of posts here about what could be wrong, but i think your a little to paranoid. You were probly stressed all day worrying about it. Your supposed to enjoy the fish not let them end your life sooner!

[Jennie]

+1

I was just thinking though, HEAVEN FORBID if Adam ever moves, LOL!

Haha, Adam I think you yourself have a disease called "gotta find an issue" disease. I see there have been plenty of posts here about what could be wrong, but i think your a little to paranoid. You were probly stressed all day worrying about it. Your supposed to enjoy the fish not let them end your life sooner!

[aalbina]

Haha, Adam I think you yourself have a disease called "gotta find an issue" disease. I see there have been plenty of posts here about what could be wrong, but i think your a little to paranoid. You were probly stressed all day worrying about it. Your supposed to enjoy the fish not let them end your life sooner!

Yeah - I think there is a little (OK maybe more than a little) of that going on as well. There's two parts to keeping discus - the discus - and the owner. Both can have issues! I have noticed lately that my right arm is little clamped next to my side, and that sometimes I shimmy a little bit. It's funny how that beef heart doesn't look too bad to me these days...

Actually, still watching the smallest one. She goes in and out of periods of being dark and hiding away from the others - and then looking fine. I'd say she's at about a 30-70 split of looking not so good and then looking pretty good. She only started this after adding the new tank mates. The rummies are very active (kind of aggravate me) but my wife likes them. So, like Al said - probably just the increase in activity.

We've taken to calling it DTV - instead of turning on the tube we watch Discus TV. Much better than listening to the news! :)

Adam

[Jennie]

LMAO!
:laugh:

Yeah - I think there is a little (OK maybe more than a little) of that going on as well. There's two parts to keeping discus - the discus - and the owner. Both can have issues! I have noticed lately that my right arm is little clamped next to my side, and that sometimes I shimmy a little bit. It's funny how that beef heart doesn't look too bad to me these days...

[Second Hand Pat]

LMAO!
:laugh:

Yeah - I think there is a little (OK maybe more than a little) of that going on as well. There's two parts to keeping discus - the discus - and the owner. Both can have issues!...

While I am not a discus owner yet, but I do have three horses and it is the same with them. You watch every little thing they do and ask yourself, what does it mean. After awhile you develop a feel for if your horses are off, I expect the same will happen with discus. Things horses and discus have in common, they are both expensive, can go downhill very fast and are a life style change.

Adam, wishing you continued success with your discus and hope your smallest one reaches a comfort zone soon.

[aalbina]

...
Adam, wishing you continued success with your discus and hope your smallest one reaches a comfort zone soon.

Thanks!

[Jennie]

You know we love to kid around here Adam! :D

[aalbina]

Oh yes - and it wouldn't be so much fun if we didn't!! Now if you'll excuse me I have to go look at my water under my new $3,500 microscope... I'm sure I'm going to find something in the tank!!!

Adam

[Jennie]

LMAOOOOO! Holy Bejeez Adam! :D

[aalbina]

Not really - if I had 3,500 to blow - I'd have bid higher on those discus! (:

[Jennie]

If I had 3500 to blow I would go to Malaysia and personally pick out my next discus!:)