darker discus

[rballi]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Purchased 2 3-inch super-red discus from local LFS. Turned darker shortly after, eating normally, behaving normally (i think, first time with discus) otherwise appear healthy, but stressed



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)


turned dark, but lighten as the day goes on, but not as bright as when they were purchased or as the fish in the store are now



3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

nothing...i went and talked to the owner there who said that the GH was too high, which registered at about a 7 on my test kit...He vehemently suggested that I use kati resin (sp?) to absorb calcium and magnesium. Said within the next month of using treated water they should get their color back and that because I was using tap water, 50% water changes weekly was way too much. Said I should be doing about 5 gallons a week on my 75 gallon tank....



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

75 gallon, setup for 2 1/2 months, 2 Super red discus (3.5 inches), 9 Bronze Corys, 11 cardinal tetras, 6 black neons, 5 otos, 6 apistogramma eunotus "fin stripe"

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

50% weekly water changes, eco-complete substrate, no aging water

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __82-84_

- ph __6.5___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading >25

- well water__

- municipal water YES

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

5 ottos, 2 cardinals

It seemed contradictory what the guy at the LFS said from all the reading i have done, but it made sense the way he was explaining it. I am now running the resin in my filter and am curious to see if it helps at all. They also have RO water that they buffer up to about 4 KH and I might do some water changes using that to see if it is really hardness that is causing the problems...from what I have read here and other places it shouldn't really matter what the hardness is, I don't know what else would be causing them to get so stressed....any tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Sounds to me like you were fed a line of bull. LFS See so many fish they could be harboring many pathogens. Eddie will help you soon I am sure.

Good luck,

[Skip]

one thing i see.. you only have 2 discus.. they like to be in groups.. just like your tetras and corys..

also.. you could up to water changes to daily..

those things would not hurt at all.. :D

[rballi]

yeah, i am planning on getting 3 more when he gets some more in, i was laid off a couple of weeks, so it has had to wait...I am pretty confused now though...

[Skip]

confused about what?

[rballi]

just from the conflicting information i got from the guy at the store...i just wish I knew what the problem was with these fish...

[Skip]

just from the conflicting information i got from the guy at the store...i just wish I knew what the problem was with these fish...

how long have the discus been in the tank?

[rballi]

about a month

[Skip]

when all else fails do water changes... its simple.. i dont' know what these resins are.. and why you are using them.. tap water is fine.. discus like CLEAN WATER>> LOTS.. i don't know why you want to mess with the water paramater..

that all you can you really do right now..

i don't know why you would be confused.. decide who you want to listen to.. the LFS guy or the information you can research/read in here from hundreds of discus keepers..

[Eddie]

one thing i see.. you only have 2 discus.. they like to be in groups.. just like your tetras and corys..

also.. you could up to water changes to daily..

those things would not hurt at all.. :D

Oh no, the one thing that I see that is most important, is the skipping of quarantine. Then its the 2 discus only, they are probably stressed.

The LFS guy is gonna tell you every which way he can, to get you to buy more products. This is especially true with todays economy. I don't care if the guy is your brother, he'll try to sell you an inflatable dart board.

[rballi]

i have a 20 long BB with just a spong filter running a powerhead that I could put them in until they get colored up? I could do daily water changes easily and then after a couple of weeks put them back in the 75? Would that help?

[Skip]

moving them again. adds stress.. they probably are feeling lonely.. once you put more in there.. they should perk up.. BUT.. like eddie said.. QT! is the best thing to do..

[rballi]

so the stress they are experiencing could be just from being 2 fish in there? So stressed that they turn darker like that? I really appreicate all your help by the way...i didn't think discus would be this bad of a learning curve...

[Skip]

they are happier in groups.. it may not be the whole reason..

[rballi]

what could some of the other reasons be? If there are other pathegens, how do i treat the fish for what they may potentially have? How much could pre-conditioning water contribute? I just use a python to drain and fill and use dechlor as the water is filling up...

[rballi]

another question...

if i get some more discus to help the others out have some company, is it more important that they are all together or that i quarentine the new ones? I am thinking quarentine....

[Eddie]

another question...

if i get some more discus to help the others out have some company, is it more important that they are all together or that i quarentine the new ones? I am thinking quarentine....


I'd quarantine them first.

[rballi]

I'd quarantine them first.

What would the possible causes for them becoming so dark other than just not being in a big enough group?

[PAR23]

What would the possible causes for them becoming so dark other than just not being in a big enough group?

What color is their poop? Have you checked the water pH after letting it age over night?

[rballi]

honestly, i haven't seen their poop cause it is a densly planted tank and they hide a lot. They are growing though, at night when the tank light is the only thing on in the house they swim all over the place and eat like hogs though....they haven't turned black or anything, they are just darker, their color still comes through but where it should be almost white is more like a dirty-ish purple color...

as far as letting the tap sit out over night...i haven't check that yet. I will pull some right now and see what the difference is.

[PAR23]

honestly, i haven't seen their poop cause it is a densly planted tank and they hide a lot. They are growing though, at night when the tank light is the only thing on in the house they swim all over the place and eat like hogs though....they haven't turned black or anything, they are just darker, their color still comes through but where it should be almost white is more like a dirty-ish purple color...

Try to observe them the next time they poop. What about the ph? They are showing evidence of stress

[rballi]

do they poop right after they eat like most other fish?

[PAR23]

do they poop right after they eat like most other fish?

most of the time. It should be dark.

[rballi]

so i did some testing of the water and here are my results.

Straight of out the tap it is about 7.7

after 24 hours it is a 7.5

the tank water is 6.5 in the morning after no co2

(test kit isn't the best)

So the next question is could the manzanita that I have in the tank be bringing down the PH that much or is it that the test kit doesn't give a really accurate result because of organics and stuff in my tank water? Or do i need to start buffering the ph down during my preconditioning of the water? We live in a small apartment and trying to keep this operation down to the minimum to keep the wife from making me get rid of it all once I start putting buckets and tubs all over the place...

[PAR23]

so i did some testing of the water and here are my results.

Straight of out the tap it is about 7.7

after 24 hours it is a 7.5

the tank water is 6.5 in the morning after no co2

(test kit isn't the best)

So the next question is could the manzanita that I have in the tank be bringing down the PH that much or is it that the test kit doesn't give a really accurate result because of organics and stuff in my tank water? Or do i need to start buffering the ph down during my preconditioning of the water? We live in a small apartment and trying to keep this operation down to the minimum to keep the wife from making me get rid of it all once I start putting buckets and tubs all over the place...

What testing kit did you use? That is a big swing in pH....could be the stressor here. What is your kH? I am not sure but doubt manzanita can bring pH down that much.

[rballi]

my test kit says a 4...GH is a 7...it is possible that the water i am aging hasn't totally gassed everything out yet, but if it was co2 driving the ph down, would the ph rise instead of fall? all i have is filter pads and ceramic noodles in the canister filters...

[PAR23]

my test kit says a 4...GH is a 7...it is possible that the water i am aging hasn't totally gassed everything out yet, but if it was co2 driving the ph down, would the ph rise instead of fall? all i have is filter pads and ceramic noodles in the canister filters...

Yes. ph should rise after CO2 is gassed off. kH of 4 should be OK...as not to lead to a ph crash.

[rballi]

so then why is my ph dropping on my tap water as it ages?

[Eddie]

so then why is my ph dropping on my tap water as it ages?


The wood is probably bringing your PH down. The nitrification process reduces KH and if your KH is already somewhat low, the wood will bring down the PH.

[rballi]

no, why is my tap water dropping ph if the release of co2 gas from the tap would normally raise the ph? it was 7.7 out of the tap and 24 hours later it dropped to 7.5 as it sat in a storage tub....

[Eddie]

no, why is my tap water dropping ph if the release of co2 gas from the tap would normally raise the ph? it was 7.7 out of the tap and 24 hours later it dropped to 7.5 as it sat in a storage tub....


Not sure, gassing off o2 maybe. I don't know if thats right but its a guess. LOL When you fill your tap, is it cold? And is the aged water cold also?

[rballi]

o2 doesnt react with KH the same way co2 does, so doubt it...:D

I still haven't been able to see them poop...but if there was a problem with their feces, what would be the course of action? Is there some kind of treatment that I could do to help the fish out even if I don't know for sure what is wrong if anything at all? I think it is just stress from changing water conditions from water straight from the tap?

[Eddie]

o2 doesnt react with KH the same way co2 does, so doubt it...:D

I still haven't been able to see them poop...but if there was a problem with their feces, what would be the course of action? Is there some kind of treatment that I could do to help the fish out even if I don't know for sure what is wrong if anything at all? I think it is just stress from changing water conditions from water straight from the tap?


Actually I think it does. Here is a little article on it.

http://www.fishlore.com/Articles/PHArticle.htm



What happens actually?
In the wild, pH is not as stable as many of us think. It fluctuates considerably. In Indian waters I have observed higher pH during day times and lower during nights. Also, pH is lower in autumn and higher in spring. In autumn, dead leaves fall and decay in watersheds leaching out acids like tannin, which acidifies the water. In spring there are more monsoon rains, hence more oxygen dissolves and therefore the pH pumps up.

[Eddie]

o2 doesnt react with KH the same way co2 does, so doubt it...:D

I still haven't been able to see them poop...but if there was a problem with their feces, what would be the course of action? Is there some kind of treatment that I could do to help the fish out even if I don't know for sure what is wrong if anything at all? I think it is just stress from changing water conditions from water straight from the tap?


That shouldn't be a problem unless there is alot of gas in your water or micro bubbles. Maybe try aging your water and see if the fish are less stressed.

[rballi]

other than o2 and co2 degassing (and chorine and chloramine), what other things would be causing stress by not aging tap water? I don't think there is any stray voltage in the water as I turned everything off for about an hour to see how they would respond and they didn't seem any different. I think i saw a poop and it was dark...so that eliminates whatever that would have made right?

[Eddie]

other than o2 and co2 degassing (and chorine and chloramine), what other things would be causing stress by not aging tap water? I don't think there is any stray voltage in the water as I turned everything off for about an hour to see how they would respond and they didn't seem any different. I think i saw a poop and it was dark...so that eliminates whatever that would have made right?


Thats pretty much it, aside from temperature differences. The tiny micro bubbles (gases) can really stress the fish, causing the fish to shed its slimecoat everytime you do a water change. Fish can fall ill because of stressors, poor diet/environment.

Eddie

[rballi]

thanks so much for your help! I am going to start a batch of water tonight and start doing daily or every other day water changes and see if that will help. Thanks!

[Eddie]

thanks so much for your help! I am going to start a batch of water tonight and start doing daily or every other day water changes and see if that will help. Thanks!


Cool, let us know how things go.

Eddie

[rballi]

Since this is a planted tank, could it be possible that they could be suffering from co2 poisoning? i haven't seen them hang out at the surface or any other gill problems...no other symptoms from other fish either....any experience with this?

[Eddie]

Since this is a planted tank, could it be possible that they could be suffering from co2 poisoning? i haven't seen them hang out at the surface or any other gill problems...no other symptoms from other fish either....any experience with this?


Definitely, its not uncommon. Are you running co2?

[rballi]

yeah, maybe i will turn it off tomorrow and only have half the lights on to see if that helps....

[Eddie]

yeah, maybe i will turn it off tomorrow and only have half the lights on to see if that helps....


Yeah, definitely try a few days with it off.

[rballi]

so i have been aging tap water for 24 hours and doing daily 25% water changes as well as turning off the co2 for a couple of days and it seems that they are getting darker...should I just continue this? At what point do i just catch them and put them in the quarantine tank and start treating them with some kind of medicine? I have no idea what is wrong with these guys....

[Eddie]

so i have been aging tap water for 24 hours and doing daily 25% water changes as well as turning off the co2 for a couple of days and it seems that they are getting darker...should I just continue this? At what point do i just catch them and put them in the quarantine tank and start treating them with some kind of medicine? I have no idea what is wrong with these guys....


Give me a list of current symptoms aside from them getting darker.

[rballi]

other than being dark and skittish, they eat well (if i am out of the way) and the seem to swim around the tank fine, especially at night when there are no other lights on in the house. I have only seen them poop once recently (i think) and it was dark, didn't seem to have any problems with that.

[Eddie]

other than being dark and skittish, they eat well (if i am out of the way) and the seem to swim around the tank fine, especially at night when there are no other lights on in the house. I have only seen them poop once recently (i think) and it was dark, didn't seem to have any problems with that.

Dark and skittish, so they are a bit stressed. Is the tank in a high traffic area where there might be a lot of vibration or movements around the tank?

Can you increase the water change frequency?

[rballi]

i am starting daily 25% water changes with aged tap...no co2 (for now) and no, they aren't in a high traffic area. It is just me and my wife here in our little apartment, it is in the dining room and no vibrations or noise to account for

[rballi]

http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac210/rballi/th_MVI_9152.jpg (http://s900.photobucket.com/albums/ac210/rballi/?action=view&current=MVI_9152.mp4)

here is a video of the fish at night when they are feeling safe about coming out more....

[Eddie]

The fish seem to be of very poor quality and could definitely be harboring internal parasites. They are dark because of the black substrate BUT you can sometimes tell how healthy a fish is by the shape around its head and eyes. You can see the bone structure protruding which is the beginning of emaciation.

Eddie

[rballi]

should I treat them? or is it not even worth it with this low quality of fish? I didn't want to spend a ton of money on these guys as it is my first time with discus. They are from a local LFS and knowing what I know now about these fish I probably wouldn't have bought them, but its too late now. any hope for these guys? If they are harboring parasites, do I need to treat this tank for when I want to add to this school? Should i find a different home for them? I am going to go with a local breeder next time and spend a little more when the time comes....

they definitely looked much brighter at the store when I brought them home....

Are they that dark because of the dark substrate or also a combination of internal parasites? Should I put them in my quarantine tank with some kind of parasite treatment? If so, which one and for how long...etc?

[rballi]

http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac210/rballi/IMG_8133.jpg

Here is what the looked like when I brought them home...

[Skip]

IMHO..

you need to decide.. what is more important? this discus or the community tank? there are to many variables in that tank.. the substrate, other fish, & water quality..

if you can.. why not put them in another tank.. Barebottom.. and start like that.. nothing else in there.. then many other varibles are eliminated..

i am not a Discus Guru..but i did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express! :D

[PAR23]

How attached are you to them will determine if you should persue a cure....As Eddie said, they are of poor quality and appear stunted to me.......may not be worth the money, effort and time but ultimatley it's up to you. Getting good stock is half the battle. Sorry. Good luck

[Eddie]

You could probably clean them up internally, which will be time/cost consuming and they could probably grow out to be some decent fish.

Also, discus are schooling fish so they fair better in higher numbers.

[rballi]

I am not particularly attached to these fish, I just want to make sure that when I get more (and expensive) fish, everything will be in good condition in my display tank. Would I have to treat the whole display tank or just the fish that are affected? Other than the discus, they all seem healthy and happy... Since I am low on money right now and can't afford more fish, i might just ride this out and see if they improve. I have a 20L bare bottom that they could go in. What would be the best treatment if I were to put them in the 20L?

[Eddie]

I am not particularly attached to these fish, I just want to make sure that when I get more (and expensive) fish, everything will be in good condition in my display tank. Would I have to treat the whole display tank or just the fish that are affected? Other than the discus, they all seem healthy and happy... Since I am low on money right now and can't afford more fish, i might just ride this out and see if they improve. I have a 20L bare bottom that they could go in. What would be the best treatment if I were to put them in the 20L?


I'd worm them, whole tank. Do your fish eat flakes?

[rballi]

yeah, they love flakes...i was looking on-line at the angelsplus medicated food..Should I get some of the protozoan as well as the parasitic food? Will that have any effect on a planted tank at all?

[PAR23]

yeah, they love flakes...i was looking on-line at the angelsplus medicated food..Should I get some of the protozoan as well as the parasitic food? Will that have any effect on a planted tank at all?

I would get the fenbendazole medicated flake from Angels Plus for worming. Should have no effects on planted tank as I use it in my planted tank.

[Eddie]

yeah, they love flakes...i was looking on-line at the angelsplus medicated food..Should I get some of the protozoan as well as the parasitic food? Will that have any effect on a planted tank at all?

Yup, get them both and deworm them first.

[jimg]

when you stopped the co2 did the tank water ph rise any?

[rballi]

yeah, it rose back up to about 7.5 or so, which is what it comes out of the tap at about.... By the way, the discus look a lot lighter because i am only running the 6500K bulb instead of the pink one that I have in the back...I think that made them appear much darker than they are. I am going to get some of the deworming flake from angels plus and see if we can't fatten these guys up.

[jimg]

Do you have a controller on your co2?
You should monitor co2 carefully and make sure you have a controller to shut it down when the ph falls. there are co2 charts online you can download using KH and PH.
That could be why your fish turned dark. Levels of co2 are swinging the ph too much and could be what's stressing them along with high co2 levels.
They do not have to be at the top gasping for air to be bothered by co2 at the beginning.
They may have parasites, but without SCOPING, IMO these meds are just a guess, but dosed as suggested on package will not hurt.
The one fish does look poor quality/condition and all it may have taken to put it over the edge was a high co2 dose.
HTH

[Skip]

get a 20 gallon tank barebottom and separate the discus.. eliminate the other variables..

[rballi]

since having the co2 completely off for about 4 days there really hasn't been any change in their behavior at all...I am going to try what eddie suggested and feed medicated deworming food and then see if I can't get these guys healthy. I will probably by another 3 juvies in the next coming weeks or so and start them off in the quarantine and deworm them and then add them a month later or so...we will see what the budget looks like...