Amazon River Disaster & Global Warming Facts

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to let you all know about my most recent report and some global warming facts, in which some of you may have interest in reading it - what is happening to our freshwater world, which I think is of concern to all, not only of the aquarists and/or discus lovers. I lived and researched it, and I wrote it two days ago for the website of PFK:


Enjoy (or possibly not),

Heiko Bleher

[Justice]

"Where will it end?" Now that is a great question and one I do not think we will like the answer to..... But most probably A very Stark and Bleak Eventuality ! :(

[Tito]

What is there to say about it that will make a difference?

[William Palumbo]

Get your wilds while you can...or at least while you can still afford them...Bill

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

Prize for wilds will go sky high this year.....

[Darrell Ward]

Prize for wilds will go sky high this year.....

What wilds... :(

[pcsb23]

I've been following this on various news sites - depressing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2010/oct/26/amazon-drought-brazil?ref=nf#/?picture=368055072&index=7

[DonMD]

Heiko,

I think a lot of us are in denial about climate change. I think time will be the master here. It's so sad to read your article about the devastation of these aquatic habitats, that seem to increase with time. Not only fish, but humans will suffer, I fear.

You end your article by saying, "breed your fish." OK, I'll try! (Got to keep a sense of humor, or else . . .:o)

[Eddie]

Get your wilds while you can...or at least while you can still afford them...Bill


Yup and make your domestic line!

[Darrell Ward]

Devastating. First it was deforestation, then dam projects, now drought, probably helped along by the deforestation. No matter, don't worry, climate change is just a myth! That's what we're being told by a certain political party here in the US. :mad: :mad:

[Tito]

Devastating. First it was deforestation, then dam projects, now drought, probably helped along by the deforestation. No matter, don't worry, climate change is just a myth! That's what we're being told by a certain political party here in the US. :mad: :mad:

But why the climate change? Is it manmade or something else?

Please don't answer on this thread. I'm just thinking aloud and perhaps cause others to think about it as well.

[Darrell Ward]

If you clear cut huge areas of jungles, yeah, that changes the local climate. Man made? What do you think? Trees don't clear cut themselves. Why not answer on this thread? That was the subject, was it not? Look at the title, "Amazon River Disaster & Global Warming Facts". :p

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

thank you guys for some of these positive thinking comments. I wish we could do more than just breeding the fishes, aquatic vertebrates and invertebrates of which the majority has no future in nature.

I wrote it, to me it is almost entirely man-made, there is NO halt in deforestation at all - inspite of what is said and being "protected" and the quanity of dams being build will contribue additionally to these tremendous droughts, also that is programmed. And naturally the CO2...

And this is not myth...

all the best, and breed,

Heiko

[discus_novice]

i read it.so sad and shocking news to all of us.we'll have to take some serious steps to avoid this type of disaster.
from this time getting wild caught discus will be like a lottery win.

[pcsb23]

There is an online petition for those that want to try and do something, a few moments of your time may make a difference, although I am not optimistic.
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2486/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=4673

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

it is to late, President Lula signed and spoke.
Best regards

Heiko Bleher

[discus_novice]

i saw it.lets see what happen.something is better than nothing.

[Discus-Hans]

i saw it.lets see what happen.something is better than nothing.

Soon there is NO something anymore, it doesn't get better anymore,

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Hans

[Jennie]

sad.. But isn't removing the wilds from the eco-system and shipping them here for our pleasure raping the system as well..How can we sit here and judge when what we do is no better:confused:

[waj8]

I disagree on this. If the wilds are considered a commercial resource then there is incentive to preserve it.

[pcsb23]

sad.. But isn't removing the wilds from the eco-system and shipping them here for our pleasure raping the system as well..How can we sit here and judge when what we do is no better:confused:
Before this ecological tragedy the answer to this question was a definite No. It was in fact supporting the eco-system by employing people to catch and transport the fish, which in turn meant these people did not have to chop down trees for money etc. Probably not explained it very well but ...

Now, well it may be a case of preserving the species, perhaps a tad extreme but you get my drift :(

[mckchu]

Since exporters like Hudson & his fisherman use a hand/small net and small collecting boat to catch the wilds - I seriously doubt their catches have much impact on the total populations of discus in the Amazon. Might be Heiko has more accurate number on how many discus are exported from Latin America each year.

Unlike some other spieces that are being caught for food - where tonnes are being pull out of the sea/river each day, our hobby will unlikely endanger the wild discus - but change of the Eco system will! We can get different blood line of the wild discus into domestic breeding, which can only be a positive approach.

Look at some cichlids in Madagasar ... They can now ONLY found in the aquarium and no longer in the wild!

[Jennie]

today, maybe our hobby has no impact, none that has been studied and recorded, but man has a way of ruining everything he touches...eventually.


Paul, you explained well, but here you have the support of one system at the sacrifice of another...

[pcsb23]

Man makes huge demands on the resources of the planet. Always has and until catastrophic disaster always will.

We should manage better how we impact this finite resource. If that means employing fishermen to catch discus for the pet trade, so they won't destroy huge acreage of forest which the planet depends on, then so be it. As mckchu above points out it is done in small boats with nets. Which is quite ecologically sound too.

What is happening here, with the drought, is probably as a consequence of mans actions or inactions. Projects like the various dam projects must also have some bearing on this too. De-forestation has been shown in many countries to lead to changes in water ways, form them drying up to various plains becoming flood plains.

I understand that people in the Amazon region need to feed themselves as we all do, I understand that they should make use of the resources available to them. My gripe isn't with these people, if I needed to put food on the table for my family and the only way was to harvest large amounts of tress, I would do so in a heart beat.

Whilst man remains driven by geed and avarice governments and business will not change their ways. Until this changes problems like the drought in the Amazon basin will only continue or get worse.

When the rains do come there will be no trees to stop them from washing the topsoil away, which will clog the rivers and lakes, destroying the delicate balance that existed. Ultimately leading to dessert conditions.

I feel so damned helpless.

Sorry for the rant.

[hekdiscus]

friends, the problem of the deforestation is same to the drugs.
it is had who buys will have always who deforests.
90% of the wood of deforestation are sold for Europe and united States and the
same it happens with the drugs, to complain who claims purchase drugs is not fast.
if the world doesn't buy the wood and derived of wood the deforestation ends but if it continues buying that it will never end, the same happens with the drugs, the American Market is the largest consumer and that is who finances the producing countries.

the heating is fault of all the planet that doesn't get to reduce the indexes of CO2.

I hope our grandchildren learn how to revert this situation criticizes.:cry::cry:

[Discus-Hans]

today, maybe our hobby has no impact, none that has been studied and recorded, but man has a way of ruining everything he touches...eventually.


Jennifer, I've a "funny" story (or not so funny) for you on this, how nature adjust to things that are always happening.

In Holland there was a guy who made his living from catching a fresh water shrimp, gosh I can't get the name of the little animal, hmm was it mysis???

Don't mind, story stays the same, this guy caught day in, day out 100's and 100's of pounds, froze them and sold them to the aquarium business for more as 30 years. Now a bunch of tree huggers thought he was doing a bad job to the nature of that lake because he was catching so many of them, brought him to court and they managed to revoke his license, he was not allowed to catch those shrimps any more, first..... he lost his business. Second, maybe the most important lesson to learn from, within a month, the lake turned into a big stinking pool with no life in it anymore at all, fish, plants, etc ALL DEAD. The mysis took the overhand, got out of control etc.

Maybe Fons can give more on this, it was a lake close to Rotterdam and Ruto told me the story,

Hans

[Jennie]

Hans, Are you calling me a tree hugger! LOL! Far from it.. I think you know where I'm coming from and my reference is broad in terms of what we are capable of doing to the ecosystem..Paul is so right..it boils down to greed..

Now on the shrimp story there...what happened to the shrimps natural predator? Surely at one time there must have been one to control the little buggers:D

[Discus-Hans]

Now on the shrimp story there...what happened to the shrimps natural predator? Surely at one time there must have been one to control the little buggers:D

They revoked his license lol lol
Hans

[Jennie]

ROTF! :D I need a glass of wine
They revoked his license lol lol
Hans

[Apistomaster]

What has been happening around the world and particularly tropical South America is very close to what the climatologists computer models predicted if CO2 and other green house gases make up more of the atmosphere and even the previous years of unusually long wet seasons were predicted.

The effects the construction of the Monte Belo hydroelectric project on the Rio Xingu was very easily predicted so I made an effort to breed as many of the endangered Loricariidae species as I have room for but now I would expect at least a few years for fish populations to recover in the greater Amazon basin if conditions normalize but that can't be guaranteed. So most any species which have mainly been harvested in the wild are worth more effort to breed in captivity. Supplies are likely to be depressed for awhile and some species may go extinct. Many Apistogramma species are pretty localized and any such fish are particularly vulnerable to environmental changes regardless of the cause.

The Ornamental Tropical Fish(OTF) trade will need to become more dependent on hobbyists breeders for sustainability. It always takes the shock treatment for business models or any other entrenched system to adapt to change. I hope this drought is a blip but it could be repeated for some consecutive seasons. That would definitely strain the survival of many popular species. So many of the aquarium fish only live along the edges of shallow water so they are particularly sensitive to droughts. Brazil already regulates which OTF species are allowed to be harvested but I expect next year their list of protected species will grow longer. Breed 'em if you have them and get better at it or some fish will disappear from the hobby. If wild stocks become unavailable for any length of time and you raise fish, start asking for cash and not store credit. All the shops near me know I only sell and do not accept store credit. A cottage industry can develop if that is done. Many countries, especially those behind the old "Iron curtain", had to adapt by breeding their own fish because their access to wild stock was so limited. It worked well in the now Czech Republic that their hobbyists became a major source of Apistogramma species to much of the world. There are hundreds of species not being massed produced in SE Asian fish farms so there is a niche hobbyists are well positioned to fill.
This one of the few things we can do since environmental degradation is too big of a problem for individuals to have much influence. We can be more efficient and use less energy by our choices. Every small thing individuals can do has a cumulative effect.

[discus_novice]

:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::confused::conf used::confused:

[Tito]

Ok let me just get this one straight.

From Africa to South America. These people are expected to live "jungle" lives while many of them are being exposed to modern day lifestyles by who? Hum...so they are being exposed to these things, cars, iphones, cameras, nice houses instead of huts, etc...

And they are expected to continue to live a third world life??

Like they don't want the best for their kids? College, good job, nice house...
Like they don't want good jobs, suits and ties.
Like they don't want flat screens, Luxury vehicles, heck a Nissan Altima.
Meaning - they are people - they are going to see what others have and they are going to want it too! Beginning with the President. He'll want everything he sees other prosperous country's have and more.

But some want them to remain jungle dwellers and preserve their thousands of miles of jungle - which brings in no real money for them and their economy.

I don't know man - just sounds hypocritical to me. Human nature works real simple - you living it up and I want to live it up to - I don't care what the cost is and how many trees to chop. That last statement in bold is the human nature in the majority of us.

From what I can see - these folks as a collective - a country- are just going to do what the USA, Russia, Japan, China, Canada and any other 1st world country has done. Only in their case - they are going to chop up some trees near a river that has fish that some people find extremely valuable. To the natives they could be just fish. I know the fish in NY and NJ fresh water bodies are just fish to me. I don't see any of us rushing to the local water hole get them out and breed them and sell them.

[William Palumbo]

I guess all those natives that WANT to live the "jungle" life have no say-so about being forced out of their land and way of life. I guess according to you, they just don't know what ther're missing(flatscreens, cars,ect) by being "civilized. Wow Tito...the ignorance and your common sense is appauling at best...Bill

[Tito]

I guess all those natives that WANT to live the "jungle" life have no say-so about being forced out of their land and way of life. I guess according to you, they just don't know what ther're missing(flatscreens, cars,ect) by being "civilized. Wow Tito...the ignorance and your common sense is appauling at best...Bill

I love the name calling - seems like folks here can't get enough of it.

How do you or I know what natives are thinking in Brazil? Also - if their President has singed off on certain projects - allbeit - so called destroying the land. Perhaps that President knows what's best for his country. It's not your country or your jungle. Period! Sir.

[William Palumbo]

No name calling. Not sure what you mean about ethnic perspective. People are being forced out of their homes and off of their lands. Forced to live a life they want no part of. Wow...and you actually think they just don't know what the're missing!...Probably like what we did to the African slaves and native Indians. Forcing them off land(s) and into "new" ways of life. You think our government made it better for them? True...not my jungle or country. Just too bad the majority of our oxygen comes from that country...Bill

[Tito]

No name calling. Not sure what you mean about ethnic perspective. People are being forced out of their homes and off of their lands. Forced to live a life they want no part of. Wow...and you actually think they just don't know what the're missing!...Probably like what we did to the African slaves and native Indians. Forcing them off land(s) and into "new" ways of life. You think our government made it better for them? True...not my jungle or country. Just too bad the majority of our oxygen comes from that country...Bill

Bill - I took out the inflammatory remarks and toned down the caps. I left what I think is relevant to me. Yes I know how valuable the forest is for the earth of course. But - it's their country. And honestly - much of the hatred geared towards the USA has a lot to do with people being fed up of an outsider telling them waht to do.

I feel bad for any of the earth being destroyed.

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

Jennifer, I've a "funny" story (or not so funny) for you on this, how nature adjust to things that are always happening.

In Holland there was a guy who made his living from catching a fresh water shrimp, gosh I can't get the name of the little animal, hmm was it mysis???

Don't mind, story stays the same, this guy caught day in, day out 100's and 100's of pounds, froze them and sold them to the aquarium business for more as 30 years. Now a bunch of tree huggers thought he was doing a bad job to the nature of that lake because he was catching so many of them, brought him to court and they managed to revoke his license, he was not allowed to catch those shrimps any more, first..... he lost his business. Second, maybe the most important lesson to learn from, within a month, the lake turned into a big stinking pool with no life in it anymore at all, fish, plants, etc ALL DEAD. The mysis took the overhand, got out of control etc.

Maybe Fons can give more on this, it was a lake close to Rotterdam and Ruto told me the story,

Hans

Yes Hans, I know who it was, Gerard Lam.
He used to have a LFS in a little town close to Rotterdam.

The lake is still a problem for the local authorities, the solution will be to catch mysis but nobody will ever get a permit to do so anymore. Some people really love those tree huggers ;).


@Hudson,

How is the situation in the area where you normally catch Discus?
Can you show pictures of the drought?

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

good to see some of you talk for real, but first I must congratulate Hans (Discus-Hans naturally), he has put it strait.

Than also Hudson, because as long as man consumes, if that is drugs, wood, cattle meat and now soya – as never before (probably now the number one Amazon-problem, next to dams although the latter are only of the benefit of a very few) –, no one will stop the destruction of the natural habitats. These (big) money bringing, belly filling, adict items will come before anything - that is for sure.
And no one will stop the, as Hans correctly said it. The drugs could be reduced, if they would be liberated, but at the end are not damaging the environment as much it as the the others ...


And Larry is also right.

But the reason why I was passing on this message, was mainly to show some of you the fact what is happening in the global freshwater fish-world with all of these environmental disasters (and not only here in Amazonia). We are loosing probably thousands of unkown species, the largest vertebrate biodiversity of the plant earth (=fishes) is going up into the air.

This is the real disaster, and has nothing to do with what some here are coming up with. The fish species for this small hobby cannot - never - be damaged, or disappear in nature - or even been reduced in any way whatsoever just by being collected for this hobby. But definitely by this actual tremendous global warming I tried to make you all aware of and describing in brief for PFk a few of the places on this planet where I was able to verify that there every single (fish)species described form that lake or river, has become extinct because it has dried up completely.

This was the point of the message and NOT that those species are reduced by collecting. That is an real unimportant – eating fish YES, aquarium fish NO, NEVER from collecting. That I can guarantee you from only 60 years of world-wide experience. Can anyone say the same?

Some of you should have also look at the video(s) showing the billions of fishes dying in this Amazon disaster (although the speaker of the videos said thousands one can see that there are billions... and how many within those have never been catalogued? That, btw, was also my PFK-message).

All the best,

always

Heiko Bleher

PS: The only good on it is, that people are looking at it, today alone we had because of the link to the Amazon disaster write up 7799 visitors from 110 different countries ... Thank you.

[Darrell Ward]

Ok let me just get this one straight.

From Africa to South America. These people are expected to live "jungle" lives while many of them are being exposed to modern day lifestyles by who? Hum...so they are being exposed to these things, cars, iphones, cameras, nice houses instead of huts, etc...

And they are expected to continue to live a third world life??

Like they don't want the best for their kids? College, good job, nice house...
Like they don't want good jobs, suits and ties.
Like they don't want flat screens, Luxury vehicles, heck a Nissan Altima.
Meaning - they are people - they are going to see what others have and they are going to want it too! Beginning with the President. He'll want everything he sees other prosperous country's have and more.

But some want them to remain jungle dwellers and preserve their thousands of miles of jungle - which brings in no real money for them and their economy.

I don't know man - just sounds hypocritical to me. Human nature works real simple - you living it up and I want to live it up to - I don't care what the cost is and how many trees to chop. That last statement in bold is the human nature in the majority of us.

From what I can see - these folks as a collective - a country- are just going to do what the USA, Russia, Japan, China, Canada and any other 1st world country has done. Only in their case - they are going to chop up some trees near a river that has fish that some people find extremely valuable. To the natives they could be just fish. I know the fish in NY and NJ fresh water bodies are just fish to me. I don't see any of us rushing to the local water hole get them out and breed them and sell them.

If native people want to live in cities, they are free to do so. Many have chosen this life. Most love their native ways, and they don't want to forced off their land. The government on the other hand, looks at it as progress, and easy money. However, this is not only affects a minority native people, it affects the climate worldwide. It affects you, me, everybody. When all the resources are gone, so will the so called "real" money, as you described it. Then what? The climate, and land are forever changed, and the money is gone.

[Skip]

OK.. i will bite..

i am not really a big fan of this global warming thing.. the earth has been around for 10 billion of years +/- 5 years.. :D

soooooo.. we have been tracking temp. for what?! 100 yrs..?! (maybe 200) 100/10,000,000,000 = 0.00001% of the time frame we are judging climate change?! i don't think can really judge it.. can we..? how do they take the temp. readings!? from around the world?! on land.. in water.. surface, underground.. how?!
if you are reading this stuff on the internet or seeing it on the news.. you must take it with a grain of salt.. BECAUSE unless you are doing the research.. we don't actually know the facts first hand.. i am just saying.. don't believe everything unless you, yourself know the facts.. (how you get them yourself, idk)

plus.. look at those ice ages.. that was temp. swing to the cooler side?! was that man made?! probably not!!

imho.. even in all of earths existence, if you could prove global warming (not sure how) by a temp. swing.. why would it not just be a natural part of the EARTHS Environment.. temps move up and down.. it happens..

this is only on the global warming thingy... not the rest of the issues being disccused..

ok.. i shall wait and see what just got stirred up! :D:D:D

[pcsb23]

Think you may be missing the point, which seems to be a common trait. Ho-hum.

Anyways for what it is worth my comments were nothing to do with global warming. They were plain and simple to do with mans actions and greed.

Oh, if it helps your inane argument the first weather records were recorded in 1874 and the earth is 4.54 billion years old +/- 1%.

[Darrell Ward]

When you cut down rain forests, the rains stop. It's no longer a rain forest. That is climate change you should be able to understand, Skip.

[Skip]

Think you may be missing the point, which seems to be a common trait. Ho-hum.

Anyways for what it is worth my comments were nothing to do with global warming. They were plain and simple to do with mans actions and greed.

Oh, if it helps your inane argument the first weather records were recorded in 1874 and the earth is 4.54 billion years old +/- 1%.

thats what i thought, late 1800's.. thanks! 1874.. so do you think, the temp gathering methods have changed much in 136 yrs?! ps.. is there a difference between 10 bil and 4.54 bil.. its still a long freaking time.. ps.. not arguing.. i jus like to know what is in the Kool Aid, before i drink it! ;)


When you cut down rain forests, the rains stop. It's no longer a rain forest. That is climate change you should be able to understand, Skip.

DW.. really, i see now!!!..

but the earth surface is about 70% water..( i can't even imagine the volume of water in gallons).. so, the evaporation of the water from the oceans doesn't have anything to do with rain.. ? but is about the amazon dryin up.. rite.. ?

[Darrell Ward]

thats what i thought, late 1800's.. thanks! 1874.. so do you think, the temp gathering methods have changed much in 136 yrs?! ps.. is there a difference between 10 bil and 4.54 bil.. its still a long freaking time.. ps.. not arguing.. i jus like to know what is in the Kool Aid, before i drink it! ;)



DW.. really, i see now!!!..

but the earth surface is about 70% water..( i can't even imagine the volume of water in gallons).. so, the evaporation of the water from the oceans doesn't have anything to do with rain.. ? but is about the amazon dryin up.. rite.. ?

So, what you're saying, since 70% of the earth surface is water, it should rain in the deserts just as much as other places, and trees in the Amazon should have nothing to do at with rainfall.

[Skip]

So, what you're saying, since 70% of the earth surface is water, it should rain in the deserts just as much as other places, and trees in the Amazon should have nothing to do at with rainfall.

boy.. you can really pull straws! lol

i am talking about GLOBAL SCALE... never mind.. its no big deal.. :antlers: this might be more fun, if we would discuss this over a beer or 5 :D:D

[Yboat]

30ish years ago, they though global diming was going to be a issue and it was going to get cold...


with out proof of cuase and effect, I'm not buying it. I've heard way to many other ideas on the cuase that are just as pluasable as co2 cuased global warming.

[DonMD]

Dear Heiko,

Thank you for your post. I certainly feel the pain for the habitat loss. It's terrible.

As you can see from the posts in this forum, there are many views, those who believe we are responsible for climate change, and those who feel that it is part of a larger pattern. Who is right? Both?

Maybe we are the pattern.

In any event, the earth will be here long after all of us are! Who's on this beautiful blue planet to enjoy it then hopefully will have adapted. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the hobby. Cheers!

[azrean]

Hieko thank you for that post on this issue. I rarely post anything anywhere but what is happening will affect life just like a pebble thrown in a pond. I would tak what most people are sayin here as truths BREED BREED BREED. Look at tigers in the wild or eagles for that matter. Humans take and take hardly ever giving so if even just a few of us do our future generations will enjoy atleast a glimpse of what we had. Now on the whole global warming thing nature always finds a way some live some die. This is what life is maybe we will see huge climate shift in our lifetime. I doubt it but its possible for rainforests to turn to dessert and vice versa. Everything is a variable of what ifs. See who cares and who doesnt. I for one will start breedingwhatever I can get from there as soon as possible.

[Tito]

Dare I even mention what the Bible has to say about this......

nevermind....Tito backs up from the computer....I'm scared...they might all jump on me:D

[Skip]

In the meantime, I'll enjoy the hobby. Cheers!

TRUE!! VERY TRUE!!

[Skip]

Dare I even mention what the Bible has to say about this......

nevermind....Tito backs up from the computer....I'm scared...they might all jump on me:D

discus were created on the 195th day.. the nitrogen cycle the VERY NEXT! since the rivers weren't cycled yet!! :D:D

[Rod]

Thankyou Heiko, I did not realize this was going on in Amazonia right now. As much as i feel bad for the poor fishes, i also hope the other animals and people who rely on the amazon and the tributaries for food have enough to eat until the rains return.

[Rod]

Dare I even mention what the Bible has to say about this......



Best not too, your bible puts people above the other inhabitants of this planet which i believe is extremely arrogant and wrong on so many levels. Lets stick to discussing fish!

[Discus-Hans]

You know what irritates me the most, beside: okay there are swimming some fishies in that river, we build a dam, fishies gone. Terrible, of course for us fish nuts. They don't seem to care to much.

But for heaven sake, there are families living in the parts they are going to fill with water, they don't give a rats about those PEOPLE.

It's almost like learn to swim, if not, good luck :angry: :angry:

Hans

[William Palumbo]

You know what irritates me the most, beside: okay there are swimming some fishies in that river, we build a dam, fishies gone. Terrible, of course for us fish nuts. They don't seem to care to much.

But for heaven sake, there are families living in the parts they are going to fill with water, they don't give a rats about those PEOPLE.

It's almost like learn to swim, if not, good luck :angry: :angry:

Hans

Right on Hans...That's what I stated in my earlier posts....Bill

[mikeos]

I Have tried to stay out of this thread, but.....

Until we are prepared to give up the benefits we have gained from such developments in our own countries ( and I bet there is no one reading this who is even prepared to make anything more than a token gesture towards giving up the "luxury" lifestyle we are privileged enough to have) I suggest we give it a rest.

If the Brazilian government chooses to use their natural resources in a particular way for the (general) benefit of its citizens then exactly what right do we have to criticise them? They are endeavouring to raise their country to a level we take as "normal", and improve the lot for their citizens, that is their right, privilege and duty. People are moved all the time by governments, new airport, road, train line...... in the UK it is compulsory purchases, I am sure your countries have similar.... so ......:D


AS to the OP...whatever the cause it is a disaster, whether a natural or manmade disaster, who can say. One thing I do know absolutely is that climate changes, what I remain to be convinced of is that we have any understanding of the process beyond a few years observation. Personally i dont think we do, but because we are so full of ourselves and our omnipotence we must somehow be to blame, and also therefore be able to "fix it" (when in reality we dont even know if it is broken, such is the hubris and utter fooloishness of mankind).

[Apistomaster]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about global warming.
Even if you accept it is a fact, as I do, no one event can be ascribed directly to global warming. That will remain impossible even if we all agree that global warming is a fact.
What happens over time can be related to climatic changes whether naturally or man made causes are responsible.
Written records of climate from around the world do not date back very long but the trend has been warming and that is a fact.
The paleo-ice to the present has recorded snow fall in Greenland as faithfully as tree rings plus samples of paleo-atmosphere for several tens of thousands of years. Nothing in these more ancient and difficult to fabricate natural recording methods indicates any rise of known CO2 or other green houses gases like we have seen since the beginning of the industrial revolution.
In all the history of nationalism have nations ever before begun jockeying for claims to newly exposed resources and newly opening north polar shipping routes. They can and they are because it is a fact that the north polar ice cap is growing smaller.
The Antarctic ice shelves and all the worlds glaciers are retreating as they have never done in the past. The evidence is obvious to the eye and through geological observations. The mean sea level is rising as the ice melts.
At some point coincidence becomes a correlation and at another point a correlation becomes a fact. Reasonable people can disagree over details but probably not the trends forever. At the current rates of observable actual change, fewer reasonable people would deny the evidence or causes of the changes to planet's environment are not the result of so many billions of people and their effects on the planetary environment.

Maybe we are just coincidentally alive at a time when the sun is putting out more energy than it has in the past or the planet's mean orbital radius around the sun is decreasing?
These are easily measured and seem to be fairly stable so are difficult to be ascribed as the proximate causes of global warming.

It doesn't matter whether any one person believes that global warming is a fact or what is causing it so long as enough of us do.

I am glad I live about 1000 feet above sea level and more than 300 miles from the east rim of the Pacific Ocean. My trout rivers will remain fishable during my life time.
Most people live within 60 miles of an ocean and only a 150 feet above current sea level.

[Tito]

I Have tried to stay out of this thread, but.....

Until we are prepared to give up the benefits we have gained from such developments in our own countries ( and I bet there is no one reading this who is even prepared to make anything more than a token gesture towards giving up the "luxury" lifestyle we are privileged enough to have) I suggest we give it a rest.

If the Brazilian government chooses to use their natural resources in a particular way for the (general) benefit of its citizens then exactly what right do we have to criticise them? They are endeavouring to raise their country to a level we take as "normal", and improve the lot for their citizens, that is their right, privilege and duty. People are moved all the time by governments, new airport, road, train line...... in the UK it is compulsory purchases, I am sure your countries have similar.... so ......:D


AS to the OP...whatever the cause it is a disaster, whether a natural or manmade disaster, who can say. One thing I do know absolutely is that climate changes, what I remain to be convinced of is that we have any understanding of the process beyond a few years observation. Personally i dont think we do, but because we are so full of ourselves and our omnipotence we must somehow be to blame, and also therefore be able to "fix it" (when in reality we dont even know if it is broken, such is the hubris and utter fooloishness of mankind).

+1

I tried to say some of what you said - but I'm ignorant.

You're from Wales eh. Well - I'm glad someone like you said it again. Cause I think people are bigots sometimes - they seem to know what I am. - ethnically speaking and they call me ignorant. Just like President Obama gets half the respect any other President got!

I tell you it takes some real big ones to tell someone else what to do with their country. Does anyone tell the USA what to do with it's resources?

Why is it that certain people cannot see their bias and prejudices? It permeates in your statements - just so you know.

[Apistomaster]

Just imagine.
If the earth was shrunken to the size of a pool cue it would be as smooth.
The thickness of the breathable atmosphere would only be a millimeter or so thick.
In 25 years there will be about 9 billion people on the planet.
Doesn't it seem odd if that many people didn't have an effect on the environment?

[Tito]

Just imagine.
If the earth was shrunken to the size of a pool cue it would be as smooth.
The thickness of the breathable atmosphere would only be a millimeter or so thick.
In 25 years their will be about 9 billion people of the planet.
Doesn't it seem odd if that many people didn't have an effect on the environment?

Cool - so perhaps people should nuke each other - that would solve the population issue.

Because aside from that - no one is going to give into anything. Onward and forward seems to be the way things are going. Not too many people down for living in huts these days.

And I just love it when Cable TV shows those documentaries with the sci-fi music and the intellectual narrator talking over about the forest of the Amazon and how vital it is and how we need it so and how fragile it is.

Well once upon a time in America - there were forest here as well - what happened to them? Hum..They got chopped down for cities, towns and highways.

Worst thing a person can be in my opinion is a hypocrite.

Thanks Heiko for the thread but I'm not moved a bit. Yes - I think it's a shame - but then again I think it's a shame the natives in the USA, natives in Africa were exploited and their lands exploited as well. And as far as I'm concerned - ordering Discus from the Amazon is exploitation as well. Trying to justify it by saying that a few people over there are making some money - please. I see right through it.

[mikeos]

While I really don't want to enter a anthropogenic GW debate in this thread I will make one comment

As far as temp change on a global scale goes... we pass from one ice age to a warmer period and then back to an ice age, no one will dispute this. therefore when the climate shifts ( one way or the other) the first question is are we moving away from a cold event or towards one? if we are moving away from one ( like now) in what direction will the temperature generally move? (bearing in mind the fluctuations that will occur within the inter-ice age periods.... eg roman & medieval warm periods, micro cooling in the 70's etc) As to the rate of change... which is really what this whole can of worms is about...there is no data, therefore any ideas remain just that....

As to mans effect on the climate, yes we must have an effect, as does everything on the planet that interacts with the climate in any way, but is it positive or negative (overall)? bearing in mind that as far as the planet in its entirety is concerned we are an almost insignificant event (even if it leads to our annihilation (and a large portion of the current species) it is still insignificant to the planet as a whole.

I will quite happily debate this further ( mode permitting ) in a seperate thread

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

I am happy for all of you, which are on the wagon, but let me repeat (at least to some) the reason why I was passing on this message, was mainly to show some of you the fact what is happening in the GLOBAL FREHWATER WORLD and to mention besides the terrible Amazon disaster also OTHER ENVIRONMEMNTAL DIASTERS OF RECENT YEARS. And I just mentioned in a few places which I researched and found out that in less than 40 years the lakes and rivers dried up and all species became extinct.

I just mention in more detail one, which has NOTHING to do with one single 100% MAN-MADE ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER: The Lake Aral - once the 4th largest freshwater lake on planet earth. We know from old maps (even Marco Polo painted this lake and called it a gigantic Ocean, this was in the 13th Century), from the 14th through the 19th Century that it was the same large freshwater lake - on all those maps. And we have photos of it being at its full-lake-size (over 400 km long and over 300 km wide and more than 90 m deep) STILL IN 1960 - that is 50 year ago. TODAY IT IS DRY AND ALL 148 recorded freshwater species (in 1948 by Berg), ARE HISTORY.
Was it Global warming? NO, it was man-made disaster, now everyone knows (maybe some of you not), but it is to late. It is the probably biggest desert now on earth. Unliveable terrible, one cannot breath. I could show you pictures I made - just shocking and a Russian General wrote a beautiful book about this fantastic lake, before WWII.

I have mentioned a few others, like the largest in West Africa, we never know what lived there (except for the names...). An on an on I could fill some books what happened only in my life time - o better: WHAT HAS COMPLETELY DRIED UP IN LESS THAN 50 YEAR AND EVER LIVE FORM BECAME EXTINCT.

Is it a cycle? A 50, or maybe even 100 year cycle? I live just south of Europe's beautiful Alps and we photographs of more than 100 glaciers - gigantic at the turn of the 19th to the 20th Century - ALL of them are almost without ice. No more glaciers.
Is it a 100 year cycle, or global warming? But everyone knows it is a fact.

I was collecting twice last year and this year in Iran (Iranocichla) - the lowest water temperature I found was 37.5°C where they lived. The city on the Strait of Hormuz has now an average daily temperature of 55°C in the shade (over 60°C every day in the sun), one cannot live anymore without being inside - it is murder. And an old fisherman (75) told me it was never like this in his live time. From 22 collecting spots given by Coad in his website, only 3 still had water in it - all other populations are history. And Coad worked in Iran in the 1960s through the 1980s.
Is it a 30 year cycle, 50 year cycle or is it Man?

You need more? And I am not talking about the Amazon, where the water temperature has gone up almost every year, Discus lived in 24-25°C now in 29-30°C and more... Is that also cycle?

Darrell is also right in saying "Many have chosen this life. Most love their native ways, and they don't want to forced off their land. The government on the other hand, looks at it as progress, and easy money. However, this is not only affects a minority native people, it affects the climate worldwide. It affects you, me, everybody. When all the resources are gone, so will the so called "real" money, as you described it. Then what? The climate, and land are forever changed, and the money is gone." This is very true. Also that "When you cut down rain forests, the rains stop. It's no longer a rain forest. That is climate change you should be able to understand"...

And Warlock: Maybe I cannot really judge it, but I have seen it, and that is the fact. Those species are extinct, they simply had no more water. But maybe it was a short "cycle". Only: Extinct is forever, even if the cycle returns the species cannot!
And I NEVER hardly ever believe what is written in the internet or given in the news (have no TV, as I do not believe in it - often only "man-made-news"). So I do not take it with a grain of salt, I just don't... ONLY what I researched and saw, those are facts (some mentioned above) no one can take or deney.

Administrator: yes "...plain actions"

Don: "Maybe we are the pattern", I think so.
And yes you are damn correct: "In any event, the earth will be here long after all of us are! Who's on this beautiful blue planet to enjoy it then hopefully will have adapted. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the hobby. Cheers!" YES! AGREE 100%. Thanks.

And also Azrean: "BREED BREED BREED." Only you got it wrong with the tigers in the wild or eagles or other such animals - those became extinct (8 subspecies of tigers are, you can only see them stuffed in the Natural History Museum of Genebra - the only place on earth) BECAUSE MAN STARTED TO PROTECT THEM in 1972. Before we had plenty roaming on earth. The very same happened or is happeing with ALL ANIMAL WE PROTECT, including fish. They just caught a cabocly 2 weeks ago crossing the border from Tabatinga to Leticia with 5000 (five thousand) L-46 (the "protected" Hypancistrus zebra living only in the Xingu at the place they are building the dam) in two plastic bags, which came from Belo Monte dam site...

Thank you Rod: and naturally all animals and the people, I just limited it to fish in this forum ...
But I hope to see you next October in Brisbane at the ANGFA Convention. You should come.

And Hans: I was referring to those fishes which stopped swimming, those billions which just died and disappeared ...

Mikeos: One thing I do know absolutely is that climate changes, you can see it, that cannot be of any doubt to anyone, also not here in this forum.

And last but not least Larry is so right in saying: "Reasonable people can disagree over details but probably not the trends forever. At the current rates of observable actual change, fewer reasonable people would deny the evidence or causes of the changes to planet's environment are not the result of so many billions of people and their effects on the planetary environment." Wewll said and nice that you breed my discoveries.... from the Nhamundá,

good night

Heiko Bleher

[Tito]

Ok Heiko thank you - it's noted. I apreciate the info.

[Skip]

keep up the good work sir!

[Darrell Ward]

Cool - so perhaps people should nuke each other - that would solve the population issue.

Because aside from that - no one is going to give into anything. Onward and forward seems to be the way things are going. Not too many people down for living in huts these days.

And I just love it when Cable TV shows those documentaries with the sci-fi music and the intellectual narrator talking over about the forest of the Amazon and how vital it is and how we need it so and how fragile it is.

Well once upon a time in America - there were forest here as well - what happened to them? Hum..They got chopped down for cities, towns and highways.

Worst thing a person can be in my opinion is a hypocrite.

Thanks Heiko for the thread but I'm not moved a bit. Yes - I think it's a shame - but then again I think it's a shame the natives in the USA, natives in Africa were exploited and their lands exploited as well. And as far as I'm concerned - ordering Discus from the Amazon is exploitation as well. Trying to justify it by saying that a few people over there are making some money - please. I see right through it.

It seems you and others, totally don't see the difference between ordinary forests, and Amazon rain forests. Rain forests affect global rain patterns, hardwood forests, not so much. Clearing rain forests affect people globally, by changing rain patterns worldwide, not just one country. With the rain forest gone in one country, it can cause drought and crop failure in other countries that rely on the moisture produced by the rain forests. How can you still believe it's hypocritical?

[Tito]

It seems you and others, totally don't see the difference between ordinary forests, and Amazon rain forests. Rain forests affect global rain patterns, hardwood forests, not so much. Clearing rain forests affect people globally, by changing rain patterns worldwide, not just one country. With the rain forest gone in one country, it can cause drought and crop failure in other countries that rely on the moisture produced by the rain forests. How can you still believe it's hypocritical?
Darrell - I totally agree with you.

All that I'm saying is that in reality - we can do nothing. The land belong's to someone else. And I understand that Heiko wants to make people aware. And indeed we are aware now, and I'm sure others have been aware even before this thread. But again - how can you tell someone else what to do with their country.

[Rod]

Thank you Rod: and naturally all animals and the people, I just limited it to fish in this forum ...
But I hope to see you next October in Brisbane at the ANGFA Convention. You should come.



Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com

Hi Heiko,

Yes i'll be there mate, looking forward to the Angfa conference in Brisbane again. I have kept many aussie natives over the years and like them a lot. At one time i had M. solata from Gove and M. trifasciata from another area who's name escapes me atm. I had about 60 very large specimens set up in a biotope style 700 liter tank. Almost every morning they would breed and display magnificent colors, the aussie natives are an underrated group of fishes.

Regards

Rod

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

warm greetings from Moscow, as the weather is unusual warm here - never happened before...! (Another sign o global warming...)

Thanks Darell you understood very well, and Tito still does not get my message, as I was not talking actually about Brazil, although I mentioned it, as well as I did mention the entire Amazon basin (which belongs or flows from and to at least 9 different countries) and Central Asia, and the Indian Sub continent .... I was trying to make you all aware that no one can (or should) question anymore that we are loosing more and more freshwater habitats around the globe and naturally hundreds, if not thousands of fish species with this increasing dryness - where ever it comes from or who ever is to blame for it....

Yes Rod, see forward to see and talk to you in Brisbane and also I agree with you on the Australians, just last year again in the NT I caught amazing colourful rainbows and blue-eyes, such beauties, that I had to write also about in - coming up in PFK January issue of 2011,

Thanks and all the very best,

always
Heiko Bleher

[arapaimag]

Heiko thanks for keeping us updated as no one else can.

How many countries have you now travelled to and collected in?

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Mike,

only 171 out of the 192 we have. But as you know some small islands as St. Kit, Naru, Pitcarin, etc. have really no freshwater or no fish. But I am missing Bhutan, Mongolia, several parts of China, Cuba (never went), Jordan, Syria and Lebanaon are still on my list and I have done almost nothing in Pakistan and very little in Nepal. Jordan, Qatar and Yemen I never been into those deserts (but there are a few fishes). That is about all missing and still hope to do all of my scheduled 200plus destinations (mostly where no ones has collected...). But first number 2 (with you in it) must come out.

Keep up the good work and kindest regards from your "old" friend

Heiko

[Tito]

I get it Heiko I get it.

It's just that I see this from a different perspective.
Why is it that some crazy doped up Jewish guy on an Island near Greece already mentioned things very similar to what you are talking about in some obscure writing called the book of Revelation some 1900 hundred years ago.....I dunno maybe some really good ancient narcotic can make a person forecast things long after their gone.

Pass the peace pipe.

Just seems like somebody has been privy to this information long before CNN was even thought of.

[Justice]

There is an online petition for those that want to try and do something, a few moments of your time may make a difference, although I am not optimistic.
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2486/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=4673

Thanks for the link!

[NanDiscus]

Breaking news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12586170

Nice one, innit? :)

Nandi

[DonMD]

I saw that in the news, also. Brazil is a proud nation with many ecologists and environmentally proactive people. I wonder what Lula's position on the dam was before he left power. It'll be interesting to see what happens now.