The sad case of Don's flukes

[DonMD]

Here's the sad story of my beautiful fish and tank!

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0863.jpg?t=1290788881

I imported flukes into my system with my very first fish, I am convinced, purchased from a local fish store, long before I learned about SIMPLY. Over the years I have lost fish, bought new fish, experienced disease including hexamita, (spironucleus) diagnosed by Virginia Tech’s aquatic veterinarian, but have never been able to eradicate the dreaded fluke. I’ve tried Life Bearer, PraziPro, even MinnFin. No soap.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0862.jpg?t=1290789070

Several months ago during a PP treatment, desperate to relieve my fish of their flashing, I overdosed and severely damaged the gills of all my fish. I euthanized all of them, tore down my system, removed everything except the 2 canister filters, but took out all filter media, and sterilized with bleach. I even used full strength bleach on the underside of the lid and rim.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0864.jpg?t=1290789109

Tossed all nets, bought new sponges, boiled all filter media, steamed the filter sponges for an hour, and let the tank sit dry as a bone for over a month.
Ran a fishless cycle and in 5 weeks I was ready. Went up to Hans’ and picked up 10 beautiful fish, as you can see in the pics above and below. And, the flukes are back. Hans says healthy fish can tolerate flukes, and I’m sure they can, like a dog tolerates fleas. But it precludes me from breeding these fish that are laying eggs in the big tank.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0871.jpg?t=1290789157

I must have contaminated my water storage system somehow, maybe with a little bit of back-flow. And if I remove the two Brilliants to the 30g breeder in the basement, I’m sure there are fluke eggs in the water there. It’s a major bummer. So, I'm in a funk, just looking at my flea-bitten fish!

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0866.jpg?t=1290789236

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Why%20I%20keep%20Discus/IMG_0868.jpg?t=1290789293

-Don in Virginia

[Second Hand Pat]

Don, not sure what to tell you other then it sucks what you have been through and continuing to go through. Beautiful tank and fish. Keep them healthy unless you are starting over again. Pat

[William Palumbo]

First off...that Discus in the second pic, left hand corner is sweet!...Secondly flukes are a constant evil. As Hans said, healthy Discus can tolerate a few. You wind up doing more damage treating them. Sometimes the flukes bother us more than the fish...Bill

[Jennie]

I got to say I was successful at ridding my Aquarium from flukes, But did lose my beautiful PE in the process...I'm wondering if something else is causing this flashing, other than flukes?

[nc0gnet0]

There are flukes, and then there are fluke like symptoms. Have you verified that you indeed have flukes the same way you did with the hex? Reading your process of eliminating the flukes the first go around, I would have to say you succeeded. Chances are you most likely re-introdcued the flukes when you got the new fish. As gorgeous as your tank is, it would be a real PITA to treat for flukes in such a tank, and most possibly futile.

[DonMD]

I think I will try to get a definitive diagnosis to see if it really is flukes, and what type. Bur for now, I'm just going to enjoy my flukey fish!

[peterhql]

This makes me think that all fish have flukes of some kind. Some tolerate it very well some not as well. Definitely a tragic story, its time to just enjoy the fish. I'd say you can still try breeding some. Perhaps giving them "dips" before you put them in a "clean" breeding tank might help. Or working with two smaller tanks for treatment.
Two "clean" tanks. Treat, scope to confirm, and transfer.

It would at least eliminate a lot of variables.

[Jennie]

Hey Don, the fish up front in last pic...is? a BD

[DonMD]

This makes me think that all fish have flukes of some kind. Some tolerate it very well some not as well. Definitely a tragic story, its time to just enjoy the fish. I'd say you can still try breeding some. Perhaps giving them "dips" before you put them in a "clean" breeding tank might help. Or working with two smaller tanks for treatment.
Two "clean" tanks. Treat, scope to confirm, and transfer.

It would at least eliminate a lot of variables.

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. That's what Hans said to try.

[DonMD]

Yes, BD. By the way, I love your signature line, I've used it several times in conversation, and it always leaves them guffawing.!!

[Jennie]

LOL! Me too

[moik]

sorry to hear all your issues with flukes..are you sure it is flukes?? since you torn down your system and bleached evrything plus did a fishless cycle,,right??? any remaining flukes should have been eliminated for the most part...if flukes were the problem then the fluke eggs would of hatched and died due to no host being avaliable during you fishless cycle,,right??? how long did your fishless cycle take?? new discus stock or other source of contaminate had to come in play again IMO...Water params are fine??? a micro scrape would cut through the BS for the most part....

[uberdave]

have you tried a product called wormer plus from UK? that stuff is nice and one of the pros in my area recommended a two tank treatment system. you treat one tank with the wormer plus and use 1.5x the recommended dosage.

treat it with one treatment then move the fish in another tank that has been wiped down with hot water and sponge and let it dry for at least 3 days.
then treat the fish in that new tank and hot water and spong and dry the previous tank for at least 3 days. repeat for 2 to 3 times.

this method is one of the big breeders and pros in my area that has combat flukes for the longest time and this method seem to work most. they said that the bleach these days aren't as good as the old ones plus bleach don't kill the fluke eggs. only drying does.

[Disgirl]

Beautiful tank and discus Don! I wish you the very best in the fluke, or other issue if it is, battle. You are a strong man to have done all you have and still keep at the discus hobby. Just shows how addictive this fish is, doesn't it? What we won't do to keep them! I like the white cones in that tank!
Barb

[DonMD]

You're right, we're all addicted! lol. We'll see if we can get some wigglers on those cones, I've got tons of eggs in the main tank, only the rummy nose attack during discus feeding time!

[peterhql]

Hey Don,
Where did you get that cabinet/canopy? Looks nice, solid wood construction? Are you happy with it?

It's so hard to find a nice stand. I'm looking for something in walnut.

-Peter

[Jennie]

Peter, that stand looks to be custom made

[DonMD]

Not custom made, I'm pretty sure it's an Oceanic. I ordered it through a local fish store in Silver Spring, MD. If you'd like to see how I set it up, I wrote a post on it:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?72105-Dining-with-Discus&highlight=

Glad you like it.

[KelDiscus]

Yeah, I have experienced them for over 6 or 7 years on and off. I have learned more and more. I have beginning to believe the Fluke Egg, that lays may survive pretty much anything in the human arsenal by evolution. I have seen them live through what you explain personally and this is my final opinion on how you can kill them as sad as it is.........

http://www.reviewstl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ripley-Alien-Quadrilogy-Sigourney-Weaver-300x225.jpg

[DonMD]

Hahaha. I'm laughing and crying. Damn flukes!

[William Palumbo]

LOL...Yea Don...if you can't eradicate them with a PulseRifle/FlameThrower...Give it up!...Bill

[scottthomas]

Wow Don, You have some beautiful fish and an awesome tank. I would do as others suggest and first make sure of a fluke diagnosis with a microscope. They are easy to see under even pretty low magnification. I have had trouble with flukes over the years. I have been able to breed some fish even though the parents had flukes. Seems like they sometimes did not bother the fry if I removed them (fry) from parents fast enough. I have also lost many hundreds of fry to flukes. Just try to breed first before you give up. As Hans said, adults often dont seem the least bit bothered by flukes if all other paramaters are good. I did get rid of flukes with a little effort and I have a feeling you probably rid them too but reintroduced more. They are very common I am thinking. Anyways, may not even be a problem in your case. Good Luck. I know those stendekrs want to breed pretty bad I bet.

[Eddie]

Serious and recurring problems will require you to move fish between treatments to sterile tanks.

[kaceyo]

Ditto what Eddie said.

[KelDiscus]

:: smiles :: I thought you guys would find that cute. William absolutely! :)

Don, I feel you. I feel that big beautiful fish can live with them but why should you have to. I think there is a lack of responsibility from a lot of people to still be having Flukes in Discus tanks.

P.S. The exchange tank method. Sounds fun, I wonder if anyone has documentation of their work with this process aside from the book from Andrew back when. Flukes today not yesterdays flukes.

The Process you suggest, what I would like to know, you have 2 tanks or more I take it. You dip the fish from one to the other. How do you not carry the eggs over? While moving the fish. I can see the dip killing the adults but the eggs do not come with the fish, do they drop off through the net do you pick them up by hand. How do you get rid of the eggs, they might even stick to the slimecoat. How does this work exactly as Bleach failed in this individuals case and in my case to eat off Fluke Eggs. So what's a little PP going to do.. How would you stop the transfer of the eggs from 1 tank to the other. This my big question. Also lastly, this is a method that I have heard about from back in the day. Way back in the day.......Jim Quayles day, but are we about today? Heard Cary tell on the phone he tried it, didn't say he had success. Oldtimer, few others say its the only way if any...Sort of sounds like more work than it's worth? Maybe not, if you have 20G worth of Discus I suppose I'd do it or try it. Or how would you do that with so many fish and not reinfect so easily?

Interesting though Thanks Guys

[kaceyo]

You wouldn't have to do this with an entire hatchery as healthy adults can tolerate a few flukes with little to no problems, so we're talking about juvies.
Also, as you said, the chances of removing every egg in the process is near non-existant, so we're trying to get the flukes under control, not eliminate them 100%. There is no gaurentee.
It is just the method that gives us the best chance to get them under control and keep the fluke population low enough that the fishes immune system can kick in and, along with good husbandry techniques, keep them under control.

[Eddie]

P.S. The exchange tank method. Sounds fun, I wonder if anyone has documentation of their work with this process aside from the book from Andrew back when. Flukes today not yesterdays flukes. Not everything needs to be published for success. And trust me, I have helped many using this method so its not hoax. Also, its not about fun, its about dedication and perseverance for which some people have none. Treating fish period, is not fun and its not something thats immediate.

The Process you suggest, what I would like to know, you have 2 tanks or more I take it. You dip the fish from one to the other. How do you not carry the eggs over? While moving the fish. I can see the dip killing the adults but the eggs do not come with the fish, do they drop off through the net do you pick them up by hand. First off, its not always a dip, can be a prolonged bath in all the tanks if need be. Nobody said anything about killing eggs.

How do you get rid of the eggs, they might even stick to the slimecoat. How does this work exactly as Bleach failed in this individuals case and in my case to eat off Fluke Eggs. So what's a little PP going to do.. How would you stop the transfer of the eggs from 1 tank to the other. This my big question. You are not stopping the transfer of eggs, only reducing the amount of eggs in each system (tank) that eventually hatch and die from the treatment.


Also lastly, this is a method that I have heard about from back in the day. Way back in the day.......Jim Quayles day, but are we about today? Heard Cary tell on the phone he tried it, didn't say he had success. Oldtimer, few others say its the only way if any...Sort of sounds like more work than it's worth? Maybe not, if you have 20G worth of Discus I suppose I'd do it or try it. Or how would you do that with so many fish and not reinfect so easily? Different methods work for different folks. My first advice, get a scope and learn how to use it properly.

Interesting though Thanks Guys Interesting enough that I don't have an issue and those who I have helped don't either. Some people just don't take advice and thats why they seem to still have a problem. Good luck with your methods Kel and trust me, flukes are not the main culprit nor the killer.

[David Rose]

Resilience is a virtue! Right?

[Eddie]

Resilience is a virtue! Right?


LMAO, I guess it can be for some folks. ;)

[nc0gnet0]

Most treatments strip of or greatly reduce the slime coat on a fish. PP is especially good at this. The amount of eggs you carry from the transfer is minimal, and can even be reduced further ( to all most nill) if you do a quick 2-3 minute did in some acriflavine between tanks. The re-infection will come not from the eggs, carried over from the transfer, but from the resilent little buggers that weren't killed during the first treatment and are still on the fish. I really dont think fluke eggs can survive a 24 hour bath in a high enough concentration of bleach water either. If you really want to go nuclear on disinfecting a bare tank suspected of harboring fluke eggs, go to a pool supply store and get some Calcium hypochlorite, but do this outside.

[DavidH]

Resilience is a virtue! Right?

Sure is for the fluke eggs!!!!!!!!

[Vern Archer]

Hi Eddie,
from literature I have read Andrew Soh, Dieter Untergasser and from my own experience this is what I recomend for combating flukes. By the way Dieter in Clifford Chans's latest book also states that the fluke has become resistant to a number of the treatments that we used in the old days. Andrew is recomending a fairly high dosage of formaldehyde in his book to knock them off. Anyway Knock the flukes off using PP, Foraldehyde or salt and move to a fresh tank that has dried for at least 2 days (I recomend a little longer if you have the tanks) Untergaser claims the drying kills the eggs and yes bleach does not work in killing the eggs. Once the fish are moved to their new tank retreat in 3 days and again move the fish to a fresh tank that has previously dried. Each time you move the fish you leave the eggs behind until there are no more flukes. Any eggs left on the gill of the fish will not have a chance to reproduce if you retreat every 3 days. I would keep this regiment going for at least 21 days. Yes its a lot of work and requires a few tanks but it does work. Andrew Soh spends a lot of time in his book explaining not to feed bloodworm or any other fresh water live food this is how they can be reintroduced. As for living with the flukes I disagree if you are planning to breed your fish they must be fluke free or your wasting your time. I also recomend a microscope to confirm as well. regards v


P.S. The exchange tank method. Sounds fun, I wonder if anyone has documentation of their work with this process aside from the book from Andrew back when. Flukes today not yesterdays flukes. Not everything needs to be published for success. And trust me, I have helped many using this method so its not hoax. Also, its not about fun, its about dedication and perseverance for which some people have none. Treating fish period, is not fun and its not something thats immediate.

The Process you suggest, what I would like to know, you have 2 tanks or more I take it. You dip the fish from one to the other. How do you not carry the eggs over? While moving the fish. I can see the dip killing the adults but the eggs do not come with the fish, do they drop off through the net do you pick them up by hand. First off, its not always a dip, can be a prolonged bath in all the tanks if need be. Nobody said anything about killing eggs.

How do you get rid of the eggs, they might even stick to the slimecoat. How does this work exactly as Bleach failed in this individuals case and in my case to eat off Fluke Eggs. So what's a little PP going to do.. How would you stop the transfer of the eggs from 1 tank to the other. This my big question. You are not stopping the transfer of eggs, only reducing the amount of eggs in each system (tank) that eventually hatch and die from the treatment.


Also lastly, this is a method that I have heard about from back in the day. Way back in the day.......Jim Quayles day, but are we about today? Heard Cary tell on the phone he tried it, didn't say he had success. Oldtimer, few others say its the only way if any...Sort of sounds like more work than it's worth? Maybe not, if you have 20G worth of Discus I suppose I'd do it or try it. Or how would you do that with so many fish and not reinfect so easily? Different methods work for different folks. My first advice, get a scope and learn how to use it properly.

Interesting though Thanks Guys Interesting enough that I don't have an issue and those who I have helped don't either. Some people just don't take advice and thats why they seem to still have a problem. Good luck with your methods Kel and trust me, flukes are not the main culprit nor the killer.

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie,
from literature I have read Andrew Soh, Dieter Untergasser and from my own experience this is what I recomend for combating flukes. By the way Dieter in Clifford Chans's latest book also states that the fluke has become resistant to a number of the treatments that we used in the old days. Andrew is recomending a fairly high dosage of formaldehyde in his book to knock them off. Anyway Knock the flukes off using PP, Foraldehyde or salt and move to a fresh tank that has dried for at least 2 days (I recomend a little longer if you have the tanks) Untergaser claims the drying kills the eggs and yes bleach does not work in killing the eggs. Once the fish are moved to their new tank retreat in 3 days and again move the fish to a fresh tank that has previously dried. Each time you move the fish you leave the eggs behind until there are no more flukes. Any eggs left on the gill of the fish will not have a chance to reproduce if you retreat every 3 days. I would keep this regiment going for at least 21 days. Yes its a lot of work and requires a few tanks but it does work. Andrew Soh spends a lot of time in his book explaining not to feed bloodworm or any other fresh water live food this is how they can be reintroduced. As for living with the flukes I disagree if you are planning to breed your fish they must be fluke free or your wasting your time. I also recomend a microscope to confirm as well. regards v


Good input Vern, I prefer to use organophosphates.

[Vern Archer]

Thanks Eddie, I forgot to mention clout which a number of people are using but still you need to move the fish to clean previously dried tanks. according to Untergasser there are no known drugs that will kill the eggs. In the old days we would get flubenol from Germany and use DMSO to penetrate the eggs but I believe he now is saying even that will not work. It seems fairly easy to kill the fluke itself its getting to the eggs.
v

[DavidH]

I still have a hard time believing that people are actually ridding themselves of flukes with meds (any meds).
And while you're chasing from one tank to the other, what are you doing with all the other equipment in your fish room?
I still go with what the general thought that.....many discus have flukes to some degree and the only thing we can do is keep them healthy and clean. Of course this is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like!!!!
Since Don started this thread, just like to comment that he has some beautiful fish and Don enjoy your fish as best you can because they look great.

[Eddie]

I still have a hard time believing that people are actually ridding themselves of flukes with meds (any meds).
And while you're chasing from one tank to the other, what are you doing with all the other equipment in your fish room?
I still go with what the general thought that.....many discus have flukes to some degree and the only thing we can do is keep them healthy and clean. Of course this is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like!!!!
Since Don started this thread, just like to comment that he has some beautiful fish and Don enjoy your fish as best you can because they look great.

Its pretty easy, you scope the fish regularly after the treatments to make sure they are all gone. I guess using a microscope is rocket science for some folks.

[DavidH]

It's all cool Eddie because I have a ticket for the rocket. But must admit I flunked Science in school.

[DonMD]

I still have a hard time believing that people are actually ridding themselves of flukes with meds (any meds).
And while you're chasing from one tank to the other, what are you doing with all the other equipment in your fish room?
I still go with what the general thought that.....many discus have flukes to some degree and the only thing we can do is keep them healthy and clean. Of course this is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like!!!!
Since Don started this thread, just like to comment that he has some beautiful fish and Don enjoy your fish as best you can because they look great.

Thanks, David. I do enjoy them, and since I've started setting up a breeding tank and a bbs hatchery, I'm going to give it a try anyway. We'll see, I'll salt dip the pair, but I suspect that if I get fry, they may succumb.

And Vern, thanks for your considered reply. I appreciate it. After breaking down my system entirely and following what I thought was the best advice, with no fish in the house, I still reintroduced the fluke, somehow. Perhaps those eggs were hiding in a drop of water from a filter canister hose, even though I bleached them. If I try again to eradicate these beasts, it'll have to wait until I retire! hahaha.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

[Jennie]

I'm curious if eggs can remain viable in damp driftwood??

[DavidH]

Hey Don, go ahead and breed. I have had many pairs breed that I knew had flukes (Scoped) and the fry survived. Just pull them before the flukes get to them.
Also had luck with prazi if the fry started to wain. I bred Red Spotted Leopards about 10 or so yrs ago that had flukes. If the fry started to lose it I just stuck in a little prazi and they survived. I have done exactly what you have done with my fish room before and still they returned. Like Eddie says had some luck with tricofloron, but the last time I used it my fish freaked never seem to recover fully, jumpy and scared whenever I got close to them. Prior to trich they were super friendly and would eat of my hands after Rx they would fly all over the place when approached. Even though I kid around with Eddie he does really know what he's doing so if you can follow his advice do so. Ditto on the retirement approach, I'm in the same boat and have very little time at present. Also merry christmas to you and yours. If you need help, support or just to chat don't hesitate to PM me. I live in Hope Mills, NC. close to Ft. Bragg.
Dave