How to scope for Fluke

[PAR23]

I have read many threads/posts on confirming the diagnosis of fluke via a scope....My question is how does one actually accomplish this? How do you scrape the fish?

Thanks all

[nc0gnet0]

If we are talking post mortem the best way is a gill snip.

[PAR23]

If we are talking post mortem the best way is a gill snip.

No LOL.....I'm hoping to prevent that from happening.....Antemortem diagnosis.

[uberdave]

you take a swap, and very very very gently swap the gills and put that under the scope. you have to first put the fish out using Anestassia so it won't just flap around and you end up putting the swap through the fish's head.

[PAR23]

you take a swap, and very very very gently swap the gills and put that under the scope. you have to first put the fish out using Anestassia so it won't just flap around and you end up putting the swap through the fish's head.

OK thanks....What do you recommend for anesthetic?

[nc0gnet0]

I don't recomend anyone that isn't very expieranced trying to swab (I am guessing that is what uber meant) the fish's gills. That is a very delicate process and you could end up doing more damage than good. If you want to scope a fish that is still alive, better to take the slide and very gently scrape directly behind the gill plate. Yes, a gill swab in theory would be better, however, it carries with it an elelment of risk, either by damaging the gills, causing a secondary infection, or improper use of anesthesia.


OK thanks....What do you recommend for anesthetic?

Clove oil, the same thing that is used for euthanization, in smaller amounts......... I have never done this with a discus, only on much larger koi.

[pcsb23]

Use a slide and scrape from the head to tail just behind the operculum (gill cover) take a scrape from under the fish from between the pevic fins to anus. You can if you want pick a few other sites too, with where the dorsal fin joins the body a good one, but remember to go from head to tail always. Gentle but firm pressure, just enough to lift some slime. Using either another slide or a cover slip move the sample along the slide, spreading it as you go, then add a drop of water on to it. The put a cover slip over it.

Start with low mag on the scope and systematically examine the sample, flukes are easily visible @ 100x and very large @ 200x :) One or two flukes is nothing to worry over, more than this may need action.

[PAR23]

Thank you all for your suggestions....I'm not sure if I have the fortitude to do this even though Pauls' method is a little less invasive.

[scottthomas]

I have done this several times. No problems. I lay the discus on a wet towel. I would never try anesthesia. If there are flukes present, you will spot them easily. Do as Paul suggested and make a few slides. Much better than to guess of fluke problem and medicate (expensive and stressful on fish and you) for no reason. Expe


Use a slide and scrape from the head to tail just behind the operculum (gill cover) take a scrape from under the fish from between the pevic fins to anus. You can if you want pick a few other sites too, with where the dorsal fin joins the body a good one, but remember to go from head to tail always. Gentle but firm pressure, just enough to lift some slime. Using either another slide or a cover slip move the sample along the slide, spreading it as you go, then add a drop of water on to it. The put a cover slip over it.

Start with low mag on the scope and systematically examine the sample, flukes are easily visible @ 100x and very large @ 200x :) One or two flukes is nothing to worry over, more than this may need action.

[pcsb23]

Peter it is surprisingly easy (I can do it) and the fish rarely show any adverse reactions. Just have everything ready and to hand before you start.

[wendy9722]

What does flukes look like when your just looking at the discus?

[Eddie]

What does flukes look like when your just looking at the discus?

Here is a good reference as to what you may see, gill or skin flukes.

http://www.cascadekoi.com/Koi/KoiParasites.aspx

[pcsb23]

What does flukes look like when your just looking at the discus?
If you mean the symptoms that the discus show then the most common are:


Breathing through one gill
One or both gills flaring (opening wider)
Flicking or rubbing on objects - sometimes called flashing
In severe cases piping at the water surface
Twitching of the body and/or fins
Lethargic behaviour (in sever cases again).

[PAR23]

So I got up the nerve and took out one of my least fav fish......Followed Paul's suggestion.....I only prepared one slide from behind gill plate to tail.....Under 100x, I saw more then 2-3 what resembles fluke to me (unable to take pics).....My one tank as 4 out of the 6 symptoms listed above except only see it intermittently.......My treatment thus far......Clean water/wipe downs/well balanced diet--ON flakes, BH mix, FDBW.

So the question is do I treat with meds?????:confused:

[pcsb23]

If you have seen 3 flukes, or what appear to be flukes, on one slide given this is probably your first attempt doing this I would treat. As for what with, well there are many options, prazi, flubendazole, PP, F&MG and fluke tabs are all options.

[PAR23]

If you have seen 3 flukes, or what appear to be flukes, on one slide given this is probably your first attempt doing this I would treat. As for what with, well there are many options, prazi, flubendazole, PP, F&MG and fluke tabs are all options.

Thanks Paul.....It is my very first attempt at this.....I saw 3-4 on the slide.....I do have prazi.

[Eddie]

Prazi powder or liquid?

[PAR23]

Prazi powder or liquid?

Prazi Powder Eddie......

BTW.....No ill effects on the handled fish.

[Eddie]

Prazi powder is much better than the liquid.

[PAR23]

Prazi powder is much better than the liquid.

I started treatment with Prazi powder as outlined in one of your posts back in March or April 2010.....3 days on 4 days off for total of 21 days.
Hate it when they have set backs.:mad:

[Eddie]

Shouldn't be a problem. You'll get them back in shape. Watch for any secondary infections though. Lately folks have been coming to me with secondary bacteria infection from Prazi treatments which I find very odd as its so easy on the fish. Just keep an eye out.

Eddie

[PAR23]

Shouldn't be a problem. You'll get them back in shape. Watch for any secondary infections though. Lately folks have been coming to me with secondary bacteria infection from Prazi treatments which I find very odd as its so easy on the fish. Just keep an eye out.

Eddie

Thanks as always......Definitely learning experience making the diagnosis.....Will keep everyone posted.
Observe for secondary bacterial infection....Gottcha.

[PAR23]

Just quick update. Finished 3 days of treatment with daily 50% WC and good wipe down. So far so good, minimal flashing and normal breathing. They get a break now for next 4 days.

Should I use carbon for next 4 days or is daily WC sufficient? Thanks again.

[Eddie]

Just quick update. Finished 3 days of treatment with daily 50% WC and good wipe down. So far so good, minimal flashing and normal breathing. They get a break now for next 4 days.

Should I use carbon for next 4 days or is daily WC sufficient? Thanks again.

Sounds good.

How large of water changes will you be doing. You will want the tank kept at either full dose or NO meds in the tank. Allowing a small amount to be kept in water is how resistance occurs. Although highly unlikely, its best to avoid it.

[Jennie]

Boy, am I an expert at all these problems! Right Eddie!

[Eddie]

Boy, am I an expert at all these problems! Right Eddie!


LOL, only thing you dont have yet is a microscope. When you have to get one, thats when the fun starts! ;)

[Jennie]

Don't need one..lol...My "leetle" friends let me know who they are without!

[PAR23]

Sounds good.

How large of water changes will you be doing. You will want the tank kept at either full dose or NO meds in the tank. Allowing a small amount to be kept in water is how resistance occurs. Although highly unlikely, its best to avoid it.

I did about 75% WC.....Enough or not?

[PAR23]

LOL, only thing you dont have yet is a microscope. When you have to get one, thats when the fun starts! ;)

Funny because I use my 6 yr son scope for all this. It was a gift for him but turns out to be a huge asset for me.:D

[Eddie]

I did about 75% WC.....Enough or not?


That means there is still a small amount of prazi in the tank so no. 100-150% or add carbon if you can't do that much.

[PAR23]

That means there is still a small amount of prazi in the tank so no. 100-150% or add carbon if you can't do that much.

I was afraid of that....Will up it to 100%. Thanks

[Eddie]

I was afraid of that....Will up it to 100%. Thanks

Its just a precaution, it should always be all or none when it comes to treatments. Meaning between treatments you want no meds in the water. ;)

[PAR23]

Its just a precaution, it should always be all or none when it comes to treatments. Meaning between treatments you want no meds in the water. ;)

Yeah.....I will do 100% WC and add carbon for "double coverage".

[PAR23]

Quick update but also wanted to share my observation over last week. Anyone else have similar experiences?
Yesterday was Day 1/3 of week 2 treatment. I noticed depressed appetite on Day 3 (on meds) of week 1 which slowly recovered on Days 4,5,6 and 7 (off meds) except for my WB who is a beautiful fish but is likely a genetic runt has he goes off feed if I look at him funny.

My WC as not changed....Daily 75% aged water. What should I do? Is it safe to increase temp to 88-90F...Currently 84F. I have 3 air stones in the tank. Do I just wait it out?

[pcsb23]

Just wait it out.

[PAR23]

Just wait it out.

Thanks Paul. I still haven't figured out that thing called patience.

[pcsb23]

Thanks Paul. I still haven't figured out that thing called patience.hehe, just takes time:D

[Eddie]

Just wait it out.

+1, sometimes fish can fall off food when going through Prazi treatment so its not uncommon.

[PAR23]

+1, sometimes fish can fall off food when going through Prazi treatment so its not uncommon.

Thanks Eddie. Good to know.