4 discus dead..... :(

[johnny313]

Everything was great in my tank. 2 days ago in the AM I fed them the same food, bloodworms. After work I changed about 15 gallons of water ( gravel clean ) out of 120 gallons. I have a wet dry filter with 2 overflows. I also rinsed out the prefilters in the overflow. I left everything in the wet-dry. the next day I woke up and saw 2 discus dead. I checked the water and everything is PERFECT! temp is 88. ph is about 6.0ish
no ammonia, nitrates, nitrites... nothing. I came home from work and another one dead. next morning the last one died.
As of now I have 2 left and they seem to be Okay for now. They were eating and swimming.... they seem fine.
What would cause this? should I do a 50% water change? I wanna get another 6 more discus but im not sure when I should get them....

[PAR23]

Hey Johnny, start here so we can get more information and post this in the Disease section.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[Chad Hughes]

This is definately a water problem.

Tell us your process on getting water from the tap to your tank.

[BODYDUB]

15 gallons out of a 120G? Doesn't sound like much of a water change. Whats your nitrate level? And yes tell us your water change procedure.......

[johnny313]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started:
found fish dead. one started doing flips and then died.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
no symptoms at all! Fish looked healthy, eating night before they died.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
no treatmentments, didnt know what was wrong.
Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
120 gallon tank, running about 8 or 9 months. 6 x 4"-5" discus. 50 cardinal tetras, 40 sissor tails. a few small corys


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
15 to 20 gallons every week. half RO, half tap. gravel bottom with live plants and drift wood.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 88
- ph 6.0
- ammonia reading 0
- nitrite reading 0
- nitrate reading 0
- well water no
- municipal water half RO. half tap
7. Any new fish/plants added recently - nope

[johnny313]

I make about 10 gallons of RO and mix it with tap water. when I do a water change I only clean the prefilters. I clean the filters in the sump once a month. I also run a UV light.
My tap is actually pretty good with a PH of 6 -7. I feed 2 times a day.
the ONLY thing I changed was I bought beaf heart mix and brine and fed it to them the day before, but thats it

[jimg]

Do you use co2 for the plants?

[johnny313]

i dont use co2

[PAR23]

I'm curious why you are reading zero nitrates. Is your tank cycled?

[johnny313]

my tank has been running for 8 months. I will retest everything when I get home. just an FYI.... no other kind of fish died in my tank! the 2 remaining discus did eat last night and look normal.

[johnny313]

actually the tank has been running much longer than that. I had purchased the entire tank when a LFS closed up. I even took the water.

[PAR23]

It does sound like a water issue especially you lost your fish after a WC. Maybe toxins in the water or something was added by your water authority....Do you add conditioner to your water?

[johnny313]

how long can RO water stay in a sealed container? I used a chlorine remover, thats all. from now on I am just going to use RO water and nothing else!

[PAR23]

how long can RO water stay in a sealed container? I used a chlorine remover, thats all. from now on I am just going to use RO water and nothing else!

I don't the answer to that question as I do not use RO water. Why are you using RO water?

[johnny313]

I use RO becuase tap water is not as pure. RO is 99.99% pure

[PAR23]

I use RO becuase tap water is not as pure. RO is 99.99% pure

What do you mean by pure? Are you breeding them? What is your TDS and kH?

[CrazyAngels]

I make about 10 gallons of RO and mix it with tap water. when I do a water change I only clean the prefilters. I clean the filters in the sump once a month. I also run a UV light.
My tap is actually pretty good with a PH of 6 -7. I feed 2 times a day.
the ONLY thing I changed was I bought beaf heart mix and brine and fed it to them the day before, but thats it

All, John has mentioned he introduced BH and brine. Also he's mentioned not loosing any of the other stock in the tank, only the 4 discus. could it be possible the others did not eat the food??

where did you get the BH from? hopefully a reputable supplier, could it have been too old??

I also wonder why 0 ppm on nitrates?? how planted is your tank??

[Chad Hughes]

Unless your water is REALLY bad, which it sounds like it's not, RO really isn't necessary unless you are trying to improve hatch rates in a breeding program. If you feel that 100% RO water is a better avenue (some do) then you'll need to fortify your water with some sort of product like "Kent RO right". This will bring mineral levels back to where they need to be and fortify your KH to prevent lethal Ph swings.

Now, you stated that you mix tap with your RO. Do you age that tap water? Some people do not have to age tap but it's a good practice. There are a lot of gasses, especially CO2, that can reak havok on your livestock. This can change from day to day. This water change that you performed, although not very large, could have been saturated with CO2, chlorine gas, etc. Although you used a water conditioner, you could still have saturated gasses in your tap water. Some discus are far more sensitive than others in that regards. Usually this will not outright kill your discus unless it's a massive water change and there are real issues with the water. Toxins will kill fish quickly and you cannot test for such a thing. I would highly recommend that all inbound tap water be filtered through carbon block filters then aged. I've used this practice for some time and I've gotten to the point that I don;t even use water conditioner anymore. Triple carbon block filtration followed by 24 hours of aging and I have perfect water.

Has there been any work done on water mains in your area? Sometimes tap water can get contaminated without notice.

[johnny313]

I get all my frozen food from the same place. the brand is SF bay ( i think ) I defrost all food I use in luke warm water and let it sit for at least 5 to 10 minutes.
I have to check the nitrates again, it was 5am when I checked everything and I was in shock. I do know that everything I tested was in the 'range" just not sure what exactly the readings were.

[Greenheinie]

High temperature and not enough oxygen? Debris got stirred up while gravel vacuuming and your test kits (nitrates) don't measure accurately -or at all? Just throwing some guesses out there.

Also, I've had sick fish when feeding SF Bay live blackworms, despite rinsing and re-rinsing and storing in an appropriate container in the fridge. I don't buy that brand anymore...although I still have some of their frozen BH in the freezer :\

[johnny313]

chad, ok..... I do not age my tap. I just mix 50 / 50 and pour it in the tank, I have been doing this since I got the tank. also, I do not have any carbon running in the tank. if I continue to use 50 50 mixture, do I need to run a power head with air in the water to keep it circulating in some sort of bin? how do you filter the tap water through carbon block filters? is there a filter I need to buy?
there hasnt been any work done in my area that I know of.

[johnny313]

greenheinie.... I run a wet dry filter so I "think" there is enough oxygen, other fish are going quite well and not near the surface of the water. I have cory's and they are fine.
Par: my TDS is zero on the RO. I do not test KH. My tank doesnt have too many plants

[Chad Hughes]

Some agitate stroage water, some don't. Your call. If you plan to use the carbon filtration method, I'd say you do not need to agitate. I don;t use it but then again we do not have the same water source.

Here is an example of what carbon filter I was speaking of (http://cgi.ebay.com/CHLORIMINE-CARBON-RO-DI-WATER-FILTER-PREFILTRATION-UNIT-/230559434349?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ae69c66d).

You can purchase adapters to attach to a hose bib or water faucet. You can purchase one micron carbon filters as well. This not only passes the water through the carbon block, it also removes paritcles up to one micron.

[PAR23]

Par: my TDS is zero on the RO. I do not test KH. My tank doesnt have too many plants

As Chad mentioned, RO water needs be to fortified. When your water is that soft, it is a good idea to check your kH as your pH can easily crash. Again, not sure why you need RO water as most tap water is good enough. Aging your water is always a good idea....place in a bin with a heater and air stone for 24 hrs.

I personally only use Hikari brand. Many have claim to have undesire effects after using SF brand.

[johnny313]

my RO has a micron carbon filter section. its a 4 part filter

[Chad Hughes]

my RO has a micron carbon filter section. its a 4 part filter

Al of them do to protect the RO membrane. Your tap water that you are mixing with the RO is completely unfiltered. There's usually a lot of nasties in it!

[DerekFF]

Strange info here. Despite all the thoughts on it beig the water, his water change was minimal and at that low a % wouldn't hardly effect the ph or other things in the tank much. Also it's weird to me that if it was the water, why didnt anything else die? Cardinals aren't known for being the hardiest of fish and I'd suspect them to die off as soon or sooner than healthy discus should it be the water. How much time do you watch your fish? I think that unless you really sit and enjoy your fish for a good chunk of time daily you may not notice small irregularities in them until they are very obviously sick

[johnny313]

I dont watch them as much as I should. although, I did notice 2 of the discus pair off and start cleaning the overflow box in the tank. AND!! I just re-checked the nitrate and it seems to be high. trying to match the color up to the chart, I think its between the 20 - 40 color. Are water changes the only way to reduce nitrates?

[PAR23]

I dont watch them as much as I should. although, I did notice 2 of the discus pair off and start cleaning the overflow box in the tank. AND!! I just re-checked the nitrate and it seems to be high. trying to match the color up to the chart, I think its between the 20 - 40 color. Are water changes the only way to reduce nitrates?

Most effective way.

[Chad Hughes]

Your nitrate reading changes things a bit..... but it's still your water.

I am curious how you went from zero to 40. That's a huge jump in a very short amount of time.

40 is way too high in my opinion. Half of that is considered elevated. Sounds like you need to increase water changes or at least the size of the water change. If you can, perform a large (like 90%) water change every week.

Also, when was the last time you tested your water out of the tap? Perform the same tests on your tap water that you perform on your tank. Any isues?

I still advocate tap water filtration. :D

Best wishes!

[Altum Nut]

As Chad mentioned it will extend the life on your R/O membrane.
For the fact that the problem may lie in your tap water source...why not use all the water wasted being used to get only 25% or 30% of R/O water and age that water.
If no means of any breeding is planned in the community tank, no R/O is required.
Aging your tap water will better analyze your water source being introduced into your tank.

...Ralph

[johnny313]

it went to zero to 40 because I didnt test correctly. It was way too early and I never mixed the solution right. if I do a 90% water change at once, I can never use RO. it would have to be tap and i could never let 90 gallons sit for a day.
the tap water is actually good. I havent tested the tap recently, but I remember the PH was 6.8ish.

[scottthomas]

pH of 6.8 is excellent for discus. It could fluctuate after its ages for 8-24 hours

[PAR23]

It could fluctuate after its ages for 8-24 hours

+1.....Keep stability of your water parameters and your discus will thrive in it. Attempting to achieve a specific number or reading (low pH or very soft water) is not required unless you are breeding or keep Wilds and even then it may not be necessary.

[johnny313]

I also have mopani wood in the tank. here is the picture:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/johnny505/2010-11-26_11-23-39_6941.jpg

[Altum Nut]

I would suggest you add some sort of aeration whether it be a sponge filter or a simple air stone.
Would help drastically if adding a portion of straight tap water if total volume of aged for w/c is not possible for you. Air supply in my mind is a must in every tank.

...Ralph

[BODYDUB]

Hmm, just a thought. But you said you lost two discus after you did a water change, but your test good. Now that you have posted a pic of your tank I think you may have released a gas pocket during the water change. You're gravel looks a bit high towards the back. But that's just an idea.........

[johnny313]

I would suggest you add some sort of aeration whether it be a sponge filter or a simple air stone.
Would help drastically if adding a portion of straight tap water if total volume of aged for w/c is not possible for you. Air supply in my mind is a must in every tank.

...Ralph

wouldnt the wet dry filter be enough aeration? I just dont like the look of unnatural bubbles ina tank.

[johnny313]

Hmm, just a thought. But you said you lost two discus after you did a water change, but your test good. Now that you have posted a pic of your tank I think you may have released a gas pocket during the water change. You're gravel looks a bit high towards the back. But that's just an idea.........

I will disperse the grave a little more even and do more frequent water changes.

[brewmaster15]

I'm betting your pH was lower than 6'ish.... Your tap is 6.8... you do a water change of 10-20 gals per week of Ro-tap 50-50%. The tanks been running over 1/2 years. It has wood...it has a wet dry... and a good number of fish.

My guess is your PH crashed....and the shock couples with the 88 F water, lack of aeration was too much. Many people don't realize that their pH kits have a range...go below it and the color doesn't change any more.. even as the pH continues to fall.. I've seen it where a friend of mines tank showed 6.0 by a color chart and the fish clearly had pH burns and were stressed to the max.. The fact was the tanks pH was actually less than 4.00!

JMO, I'd question your pH values as a starting point.

HTH,
al

[cooksa]

So how does one go about testing a PH that is lower than the kits go?

[Altum Nut]

You can therefore use an electronic ph monitor.
Here is an example from one of our sponsors site:http://www.eliteaquaria.com/Meters_s/30.htm

...Ralph

[johnny313]

well, I did a water change of about 50 gallons and the nitrates did not go down at all. :(

[Chad Hughes]

Have you tested your tap water???

Something else to consider.... how old is that test set that you are using? If you want to make sure that it's still reading, at least somewhat accurately, test some of your RO water with the test kit. If you don't get all zeros, then toss the old test set and get a new one.

[johnny313]

yes i tested my tap and there are no nitrates. one more thing, Chad..... how do I do a 90% water change in a 120 with tap water? dont I have to let it sit for a while? thats 108 gallons! How do I leave 12 gallons in a tank while the new water conditions?

[Chad Hughes]

First, do you have a large Ph swing with your tap water after 24 hours? If not, then you can likely skip aging. If you do, aging is a must. If you cannot age, you need to degass your tap. Heavy agitation will do the trick.

As I mentioned above, the use of block carbon filtration helps a TON! You can get some high flow carbon filters but they are a little pricier than the little 10" that I use. The filtration process will also help with the degassing. I would use a one micron sediment filter followed by at least a single one micron carbon filter. Two would be better. This all may sound like a huge pain in the a$$, but it will do wonders for your water quality. Now, this is going to slow your water flow from the tap a little so you'll have to adjust your maintenance schedule accordingly.

In the mean time, you could also reduce the volume of your tank by half. Since you are not able to provide 108 gallons, remove nearly all of the water and only refill it half way. This will relieve your immediate issue with some clean water. If you want to top off the tank whne you have water available, you can.


Hope this helps!

[johnny313]

In the mean time, you could also reduce the volume of your tank by half. Since you are not able to provide 108 gallons, remove nearly all of the water and only refill it half way. This will relieve your immediate issue with some clean water. If you want to top off the tank whne you have water available, you can.
Hope this helps!

Chad, i'm sorry for all of the questions, but correct me if im wrong, but I wont be able to use my wet / dry filter if I drain all of the water and refill it 50%

[Chad Hughes]

That is a problem. Is this the only filter that you have running? Do you have another that you can use until you can get your water issues fixed?

[johnny313]

thats the only filter. I could go buy another filter... what would you recommend if money isnt an option? If I do buy a filter, I would want it running 24x7 after this situation

[johnny313]

I was thinking about getting the biggest fluval and using it for purigen

[Chad Hughes]

The FX5 works well. That's what I use. Great filter!

[johnny313]

should I replace the wet dry or run both? just an FYI.. im running the wet dry with a mag 9 and im using a Tee for a return so the flow isnt that much

[kaceyo]

IMO, jumping into 100% wc's is likely to cause some problems for a someone that isn't ready to go there. More frequent 30% to 50% wc's should be good enough to keep your Ph from dropping too low and will improve water quality and stability. Test your tap water first to see if there is much pH variation between the time it's drawn and 24hrs later. That will help you to decide what size wc's you can do.
I really don't think extreme measures are needed, just get a handle on things as they are.
Get a "Python" or a hose with a fauscet adaptor so you can do wc's from the tap and start doing at least 20% wc's daily to get things back under control.
I don't think the RO is doing you any real good either.

[BODYDUB]

You know on my water test kit I have to shake my second bottle of nitrate test solution to get a accurate reading. Food for thought..........

[Chad Hughes]

I run both on tanks that large. The gas exchange on the wet dry is great!


should I replace the wet dry or run both? just an FYI.. im running the wet dry with a mag 9 and im using a Tee for a return so the flow isnt that much

[johnny313]

You know on my water test kit I have to shake my second bottle of nitrate test solution to get a accurate reading. Food for thought..........
I did it wrong the first time, but I shook the bottle the second time and got high readings.