SICK DISCUS - I need help please =(

[juliocarmine]

okay I first asked allexperts (2 of them) they were very helpful, and I've also dealt with a petco lady, and then my local "pro" fish store, all different responses.

Me and my fish are on our last leg together, and I've come here for my final attempt at resolving his problem.

quick run down - my tank is 36 gallon bowfront, 84 degrees, less 1ppm ammonia, less than 6 PH, no nitrites, low nitrates, I do 40% water changes every 3 days, I use well water with low PH with 1 cap seachem prime, 1 cap API tap conditioner.

I have 3 small discus, 3 medium/large discus, 10 cardinal tetras.

none of the fish are sick except for 1. he is the main discus of the tank, most dominant, always in front.

over 5 weeks ago he and another paired off, I didn't have a second tank so I put up a divider giving them their own space. after 3 batches of eggs that kept getting fungus I tried meth blue in the community tank which failed and I gave up on the eggs and lowered the divider. the main discus was never the same.

he stopped actively eating with the group for over 3 weeks now. I had finally got up a hospital tank when I realized it was getting bad he had turned dark sat in the bottom corner and was losing balance as well as body weight and I put him in there... I put some melafix in with him and the next day as if instantly all his colors were back.. he was swimming around looked good... still not eating, switched to metro for 3 days, still not eating, tried different foods tetra color sinking granules, frozen beef heart, frozen blood worms, live black worms. Community ate it up... but sick discus never actively tried to eat anything while I fed him. I would let the food sit with him for 2 hours sometimes more before I removed it hoping he'd nibble when I'm not looking.

After a full week by himself... full colors... swimming around.. watching me... watching him.... I was debating to put him back in the community to see if the others could coax him into joining in on eating... when suddenly the community heater conked out, I thought it was a sign... so the hospital tank heater and the non-eating discus went into the community tank without debate.

I'm on my fourth day with him in the community tank. first two days he was swimming around, up in front of the tank, full colors, fanning with his old pair discus, and looking normal.. at feeding time he would swim up to the activity.. look up at the food but never attempt to eat anything. I thought it was working. He was coming around. I did a water change that night, same as always, nothing different. Next day I'm looking at him closely and noticed his eyes were really BIG. not red or discolored.. perfectly clear... BUT BOTH BIG. he began hiding in the corner again and his colors began to fade off. I dosed community with 1 teaspoon for every gallon of API aquarium salt... the next day everyone still okay and eating as normal, except for him, not eating, colors darker, just like when before, but now his eyes bulging and clear, and losing his balance again. Around this time I noticed very tiny and slight pin holes around the face, which is also something I noticed on another discus but never really alarmed me considering they all eat fine and are perfect. Some people have told me it's fine it's natural, others say it's hole in the head.

I put a new heater in the hospital tank and put him in there. He is currently in there with a teaspoon of api salt for each gallon, proper dose of vita-chem and the proper dose of penicillin recommended by the owner and experienced discus handler at my local fish store.

my arsenal is maracyn, metro, penicillin, melafix, pimafix, meth blue.

- discus has pop eye and hole in the head, water conditions/plastic stems of silk plants caused damage, use salt + maracyn. + melafix if no improvement, black water conditioner for water. treat in community tank, add extra bubbler for more oxygen due to all medication(allexperts Renee)

- if it was 1 eye, could have been injury, though it's both eyes, must be pop eye, something must be going on in the tank, PH change most likely. Pop eye is first sign, due to his environment, keep in hospital tank. don't believe in salt, see what the penicillin does, no maracyn yet, pen isn't working, switch to maracyn, but not at same time, less medications the better off, just find what works. water changes and add the meds back that you take out, not sure what else can be done. (allexperts jayme)

- holes in head are not significant, seem natural, does not look like pop eye due to the clarity of the eyes. must be an infection, administer penicillin in hospital tank over next 5 days. since he is not eating he may not be able to survive much longer, may be best to just let him be. (expert and owner of local fish store / discus handler)

- holes in the head look natural, seems like pop eye, treat with maracyn, vita chems could help with immune system, black water extract not necessary. (other local fish store guy)

- discus could have swallowed a lot of air, which could cause the pressure and bulging eyes on discus. (petco lady)

- (before the bulging eyes and before he went back into community tank, not eating advice which I administered) not eating because of internal parasite. use metro with live black worms to get his interest (local fish store guy)



So here I am with my discus.. he's swimming and for the most part upright in his hospital tank with penicillin and salt.

I guess I'll know tomorrow if the penicillin has had any true improvement on the fish.

I'm considering my next steps of following through with the penicillin treatment... adding maracyn, big water change and trying meth blue.

at least if I can get him back to how he felt before he went back in the community tank and got the clear bulging eyes, I can start at square one with getting him to eat agian.

He's my favorite discus of the 6, I hope there's a solution out there. I don't know if he has pop eye... don't know if it's hole in the head. don't know if the initial metro killed the parasites presumably stopping him from eating. I just know that the battle isn't over until the fish is floating.

SO I ASK... who can help me? Us... =(

take a look at these photos and see if this problem looks familiar to you.

And of course, thank you so much for your time and generous advice, it is greatly appreciated.



This is HOW HE USED TO LOOK (blue discus) when he paired off and was happy... until the divider went down and he stopped eating.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/IMG_0752-1.jpg

the most beautiful discus :(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/IMG_0758-1.jpg

this is their home 36 gal bowfront, round natural gravel, fake silk planting, cave out of coral they like to hide in, volcano bubbler on one side (ghost knifefish hides in volcano) fine bubbler on other side, 70 gal aquaclear filter, + heater(hospital tank is in the dark off to the left, 10gal 1 bubbler+heater, light silk planting)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0008.jpg

here is the sick discus's now... note the eyes when on the third day of being back in his community tank, note the clear bulging eyes, slight pin holes on face, natural or not..?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0009-1.jpg

here is another discus in the community who exhibits pin holes on the face who eats and is active and completely fine.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0012.jpg

here is the discus today before I put him back into the hospital tank with penicillin, vita-chem, and api aquarium salt
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0011-1.jpg


Tomorrow will update on how he looks with a photo of him in the hospital tank. As of right now I'm following with what Jayme from allexperts and my local fish store owner/expert is saying. Try with the penicillin for now and see what happens. Maybe switch to Maracyn if no improvements over the next 3 or so days.

I'm wondering how much water changes should I do on this hospital tank, daily? 50%?


Thank you.

[jimg]

I read this quick as I am late! I think problems may be the tank was not cycled and meth blue took out whatever bio you had.

[pcsb23]

The first thing to sort out is the water. There should be zero ammonia, it indicates that either the cycle isn't complete or the bio load is too great for the filter.

You should also check the nitrites (NO2) because where there is ammonia there usually follows nitrites and this often kills more fish than ammonia.

The tank has large gravel and what look to be fake plants, problem here is the gravel will trap crud and cause probs with water quality. I would remove the gravel. If you feel you must have a substrate then use sand (I use pool filter sand and play sand - cheaper and just as safe).

Using api salt is a waste of money too, any salt will do but if the anti caking etc worry you get kosher salt. However not sure salt is required or needed here just yet. If the NO2 is present then use salt to mitigation otherwise hold off for now.

Now to some of the advice you have been offered:


- discus has pop eye and hole in the head, water conditions/plastic stems of silk plants caused damage, use salt + maracyn. + melafix if no improvement, black water conditioner for water. treat in community tank, add extra bubbler for more oxygen due to all medication(allexperts Renee)It could be pop eye. If you use an antibiotic in the community tank it will have a negative affect on the bio filter (some worse than others) i.e. you will need to recycle the tank. ALso the contents of the filter may well interfere with the med as will substrate etc. Best to treat in a qt tank with only a heater and an airstone with floss wrapped around it. As for the melafix, I've never had any good results with it, though I do like the smell. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest it irritates gill membranes too. A broad spectrum gram positive biased antibiotic would work (I think Maracyn is gram +ve).

The other reason is it could be water quality. This is your number one priority to sort BEFORE meds.


- if it was 1 eye, could have been injury, though it's both eyes, must be pop eye, something must be going on in the tank, PH change most likely. Pop eye is first sign, due to his environment, keep in hospital tank. don't believe in salt, see what the penicillin does, no maracyn yet, pen isn't working, switch to maracyn, but not at same time, less medications the better off, just find what works. water changes and add the meds back that you take out, not sure what else can be done. (allexperts jayme) my comments above apply. Penicillin is effective against gram +ve so no probs with that.

However sorting your water quality out is your number one priority!



- holes in head are not significant, seem natural, does not look like pop eye due to the clarity of the eyes. must be an infection, administer penicillin in hospital tank over next 5 days. since he is not eating he may not be able to survive much longer, may be best to just let him be. (expert and owner of local fish store / discus handler)agree with the holes comment. Disagree about the survival, this fish has good condition (i.e. it is fat ;)) so will have plenty of reserves. Agree with qt tank too.

I repeat:
However sorting your water quality out is your number one priority!




- holes in the head look natural, seems like pop eye, treat with maracyn, vita chems could help with immune system, black water extract not necessary. (other local fish store guy)agree with holes comment and drug choice and balck water extract (though the good ones are a benefit ime).

I repeat (again):
However sorting your water quality out is your number one priority!



- discus could have swallowed a lot of air, which could cause the pressure and bulging eyes on discus. (petco lady)You now owe me a new keyboard as I just spat coffee all over it;) That was a good one:bandana:



- (before the bulging eyes and before he went back into community tank, not eating advice which I administered) not eating because of internal parasite. use metro with live black worms to get his interest (local fish store guy)
mmm maybe.

I think the fish is in a stressful environment and this needs to be addressed before anything else.

To me the eyes do not look like popeye at this time, though al;ways difficult from pics) the scales on the fish look ok and there is no abdominal swelling I can see. It all points to poor water quality, and as you have indicated an ammonia reading this supports that fact.

I would be doing daily water changes for a while 33% will be ok I think.

[DiscusFandS]

I am no expert but I would say that you are heavily over stocked. To keep that bioload up you will have to do 2 big water changes per day. On the fish being sick I would follow pcsb23 advice but I am pretty sure what causing this is water quality. HTH

[juliocarmine]

UPDATE::::::

thanks for the advice!

AFTER BEING PUT IN THE HOSPITAL TANK LAST NIGHT WITH PENICILLIN - looking him over today his colors have returned but with strong stress stripes, however his clear bulging eyes have now gone cloudy.. seems to have grown a small tiny bubble size white mass in each eye. This must now be pop eye for sure? Please refer to photo. Should I water change 50% stop with the penicillin (only dosed him once last night) and begin with meth blue or maracyn? or metro? or maracyn and salt? continue with penicillin? stop with salt? melafix does nothing.... ? Recommendations please, your time and generous knowledge is appreciated!


his hospital tank is too dark =( had to hit the poor guy with flash, but at least now you see what's going on perfect
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0082.jpg

as for why this has happened I must agree.

I was doing big 40% water changes every 3 days on the main tank to get the ammonia down, this tank has been running for 6 months, I agree with the meth blue messing up my benificial bacteria... because after the meth blue didn't work to save the eggs from fungus, *SHOULD HAVE SET UP A TANK FOR THE PAIR AND NOT PUT METH BLUE IN THE COMMUNITY TANK =(* I did daily water changes until I got the meth blue out and took the divider wall down.. and that was around when he stopped eating.


however it's strange that the most hardy and dominant fish became effected by the water quality change / lack of benificial bacteria in the tank... where all the other discus and even the little guys still seem to be thriving. No one has any problem at all! But looking back on it... I did have a rainbow shark that died around the time that the main discus began to stop eating.

and yeah the petco lady tried her best. it's just that people like to give their opinion on things even when they don't know what they're talking about. It's a kind gesture, but ultimately misleading!

:confused:

[Eddie]

Make sure you keep the temp around 82F. Also add salt during antibiotic treatments, about 2 tbsp/10 gallons is sufficient.

[juliocarmine]

as for overstocking... my local fish store said I'd be ok... as long as I kept on top of my once every 3 day water changes at 40%.

but I've heard that discus need 10 gallons per discus, or something along the lines. Even though I have 3 smaller discus and 3 bigger discus, that'd probably mean I'd need a 55 gal or 70. I do my water changes and pay close attention to the fish though.. I just don't have it in me to start up another / larger tank. Perhaps this is natural selection in way of homeostasis slapping me in the face.

as for the gravel... every water cange (every three days) I use the cyphon hose (with gravel head attachment) and I vacuum the complete gravel bed to remove uneaten food and gunk/debris.

From time to time... I also have one of those battery powered submersible electronic vacuums that you can vacuum up the particles that get trapped in the meshing pocket without water changing.

this one actually
http://www.watergardeningdirect.com/acatalog/2008-Eheim-Battery-Vacuum.jpg


so I think the meth blue definitely messed with my bio filter. but I do well to keep the tank clean otherwise.


I DID JUST BUY A NEW BIO BAG for my aquaclear filter... my old bio bag has been running for 4 months... can I exchange this bio bag without anything too crazy going to happen? I know the bio bag has pores to allow bacteria to grow... so I don't want to remove benificial bacteria... but I do have a fresh new bio bag to put in there if that will help with the condition of the water of the main tank.

Thanks again guys/gals!

[Eddie]

Bio media never needs to be replaced, only rinsed occasionally. Alternate rinsing the media bags and the sponge to keep the bacteria bed undisturbed for optimal filtration.

[pcsb23]

Believe me even vac'ing the gravel it will remain dirty. It is one of the worst substrates for discus imo. Sand is much better, but the best is none.

You have started with an antibiotic, it is important to follow through with it. Penicillin is not an AB I have used much on fish but it should work ok. On the qt tank do a minimum of 50% w/c a day and redose the penicillin at the full dose. As Eddie said 82F is fine and adding salt won't harm. No need for lights on the tank.

As for the stocking level on your 36, well lets just say it is cosy. However at that level you need to be on top of maintenance all the time, changing the substrate will one thing that will help.

At the risk of repeating myself, you MUST get on top of the water quality issues - first priority.

[juliocarmine]

ok I'll keep up on big water changes in the hospital tank, following through with the penicillin treatment, and will redose accordingly to what's taken out at water changes. should I even bother trying to feed him? It may just add waste to the hospital tank seeing that he's not interested in eating anything at all.

as for changing substrate... I'm not attached to the gravel look, no problem switching to sand if you think it's better or almost barebottom with very light amount of sand. How does that sound? Also what is recommendable? There is some substrate that comes with "benificial bacteria" already in it.. in bags at my LFS, should I stay away from colored sand? I'm sure my girlfriend will love to pick out a color of sand (she mostly hates the fish for how much time I put in to them... this could be her chance to care! haha) but not if it's going to be stressful on the fish. though they deal well with the bright colors of the silk plants. (background to my tank is just black)

Thank you Eddie, and thank you Paul!

[juliocarmine]

QUESTION: directions for penicillin says
1 tablet for 10 gallons (I have a 10 gallon hospital tank, so that's just 1 tablet) treat the tank every other day for a full 5 days (a minimum of 3 treatments is recommended).

I put one yesterday... did a water change of 50% today and put in half a tablet to make up for what was taken out. Does that mean tomorrow when I do my 50% water change put half a tablet in and then ANOTHER full tablet? Does this medication assume I'm doing water changes or no water changes? Don't want to over-dose or under-dose.

I could do a 50% water change and put a FULL tablet on the "every other" day. and the day between put just half a tablet for the 50% change.


so lost, confused, stressed :( feel like my fish.

]( v -_-)

[pcsb23]

I wouldn't feed for the next couple of days, it won't harm the fish.

When redosing the penicillin dose at full strength each time.

Ordinary sand (pool filter or playsand are cheap and safe) is what I would advise, no thicker than 1/2" really.

[juliocarmine]

hey paul,

so I dose every other day full strength (1 tablet) along with the half tablet I take out every day in the water changes. that would make tomorrow a total of 1 + 1/2 tablet. the half I took out in water change, and the 1 tablet new dose? =/

I could remove the gravel now from my main tank with the big water change I'm about to do, considering the sick fish is actually out of the main tank and in his hospital tank. I could remove all the gravel and do a big water change and barebottom it for now.

is there any precautions to removing gravel with your fish in there? besides obviously being careful. don't want to foul up the water, or will that not matter?

thanks SORRY FOR MY BILLIONS OF QUESTIONS, I'm truly learning a lot and will reciprocate this knowledge to others. We all started some where! =)

[Skip]

Lose the substrate... do you WANT a pretty tank or pretty discus!? at you can't have both

just scanning over this topic.. its seems like you are throwing all kinds of meds.. without knowing the problem..

daily water changes is your best bet!!!! patience and letting your discus recover with the CLEAN WATER will also help.. good luck!

[kaceyo]

Hi Julio,
Add one full tab of penicillin every day after the water change.
You can remove the gravel slowly (1/4 to 1/3 a day) or all at once, your choice.

[pcsb23]

Hi Julio, yep we all started somewhere and I for one made many mistakes too! But as Kacey says one full tablet of penicillin each day after a water change. Good luck.

[juliocarmine]

thanks for clarifying the penicillin dosage. I re-read what I type and sometimes and I don't even understand it, ha! so thanks.

I after 6 months I shouldn't be having ammonia problems, especially because I was doing scheduled water changes, and I kick started the tank off with adding nitromax in for more beneficial bacteria... what confuses me sometimes is how people say it's important for bacteria to grow on things, such as filter media, but then other people say that that media should be replaced or rinse to have a healthy tank. How can I try so hard to have the beneficial bacteria grow in my filter media just to rinse it off!? I bought a big bio-bag now and I don't want to put it in because I know my current bio bag has the bacteria I need to keep the ammonia down.

Hahaha I really brought all the problems of the world to this forum! But I really have to agree with you guys, my main ammonia problem has gotta be my graveled bottom. It must be just storing way too much waste and debris in it.. for an already "cozy" stocked tank, it's what has been helping the ammonia stick around for so long. I have ZERO nitrites. Nitrates barely present. PH is 6 or a little lower. It's just the ammonia there.


so I'm vacuuming the bed thoroughly then taking out the gravel all at once right now. Going to do a 50% water change on the main tank and I'll be back with a photo of my new bare-bottom when I'm done! err that doesn't sound right.

anyone have nice pics of their bare-bottom tank setup? I think I'm going to need some clever decorating ideas. or does everyone just have silk plants and poster plant backgrounds??

[Jennie]

be sure to remove the fish from the tank when you change out the gravel, or they'll all be sick in no time!

[juliocarmine]

bare bottomed!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0084x.jpg


with nice big 50% fresh water change. Everyone seems okay. it's not THAT bad of a look, but if I can had to decide between no rocks or ammonia, I'd go with the no rocks.

cleaning up uneaten food and waste will be easy now! though these guys usually eat everything. My tank definitely FEELS a lot cleaner now without the gravel. Not too much junk stirred up really... but I vacuumed the gravel really well in part of the water change which I did immediately after removing the gravel. I was unable to remove the discus fellas in the process, but they are used to me sticking my hands in the tank, they seem unaffected... they look like they're staring down a lot more now hahaha.


hospital tank

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0087x.jpg


our little hero

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0091x.jpg

[juliocarmine]

also side note... now I can open up the cabinet and look up from the bottom and see the ghost knifefish hanging out in the volcano! ha! cool.

[nc0gnet0]

Monitor your ammonia/nitrite carefully these next few days. You have removed your gravel which is very good long term, but short term you could see a jump in your levels as the gravel will have had some of your beneficial bacteria in it.

[Eddie]

Also, if the bottom of the tank can be seen from underneath, I'd put something underneath the tank, like white paper. This way you wont have the fish racing all over the tank floor, nose down.

[kaceyo]

And, you can rinse the bio-media pretty well without losing the good bacteria. You'd have to almost scrub a foam filter to kill off the live bacteria, which is stuck on pretty well. I rinse my foam filters every day when raising fry and the filter still takes care of most of the ammonia. Just rinse in dechlorinated water that is close in temp and squeeze them out.

[nc0gnet0]

Part of the reason you are having ammonia problems is the fact your PH is so low, it's hard for the beneficial bacteria to propagate. However, with your ph less than 6, the ammonia itself should be non-toxic.

[juliocarmine]

Today will be the 4TH day of dosing with 1 penicillin tablet daily with the 50% water change (redosing with 50% salt, 50% vita-chem). Today I put some tetra granules in the tank with him.. I'm going to let them sit so he can ponder if he's going to eat before I do a water change and cyphon the food out.

Today HE IS REALLY ENERGETIC. he's swimming all over the place. He seems to be showing his black lines/marks today, which is contrary to yesterday where he showed none. His colors are more fluorescent and he's more reminiscent to what he used to be like.

His eyes (to me at least) to me look less inflamed as far as the bubble around each eye is concerned. Considerably smaller, though remained very cloudy. Where in the beginning when I first noticed his eyes they were VERY LARGE and perfectly clear.

to recap (fish not eating)
day 1 - perfectly clear enlarged eyes, fish dark, black lines, staying in one spot
day 2 - eyes now cloudy w/ tiny white mass(?) centered in eye bubble. body colors better.
day 3 - tiny white thing no longer present, eyes remain cloudy. colors good, no lines
day 4 - enlarged size of eyes appear smaller though remain cloudy - active, colors good, in good spirits, though showing black lines/marks across body.

I'm going to dose the penicillin today.... however when should I decide to switch to something like maracyn to treat for possible "pop eye"? Or would penicillin also be able to treat pop eye.. and just continue with dosing with the penicillin until the fish is 100%? Don't know how tolerant the fish is to continuous medication, or switching medications.

advice appreciated, thank you


Here are the photos of the fish today. How does he look to you?

Please refer to previous photos taken and posted in this thread to track his progress accordingly. Thank you so much for your time and generous expertise. Contrary to LFS, THIS FISH HAS A CHANCE!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0084.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0085.jpg

the smudge to round the top of his eye in this photo is on the outside of his Hospital tank, not on his eye.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0086.jpg


the cloudiness over his eyes is consistant with no masses of any sort.


I'm sitting here watching him swim up and down up and down in his tank. He seems to have a lot of energy.

[pcsb23]

I'd treat for at least another 6 or 7 days with penicillin as you started with it. It is still a powerful antibiotic. Treating eye problems is difficult as it is difficult to get drugs to the site of the problem (no pun intended).

There is always a risk treating fish with any med, but it is good news that the fish is showing good energy. Don't worry over much about it eating or not just now, it has plenty of condition in the body so a few days (or weeks) won't be too damaging. You may find fbw, or freeze dried black worm or live white worm will stimulate it to eat, also brine shrimp.

[juliocarmine]

thanks paul!

=)

do you think maybe I'm over-medicating him, as of now?

Do you think with my 50% water changes I should being half tablets every day now instead of 1 full tablet? since the remaining 50% water has high concentration of penicillin, maybe I should just be doing a half?

He's being really energetic. I just don't want to OD him on penicillin. He's swimming up and down.. up and down.. up and down. Almost like he's enjoying himself. Eyes are cloudy as per recent photos posted. but they look better as far as size.

I put some granules in today and I'm looking for them and they look like they're gone! perhaps the energy and missing food is a sign he's on his way back to the road of recovery! Or he's going insane and the filter sucked up the food. I just put some frozen blood worms in there with him to see if he eats that for a while before I do the water change.


So half tab or full tab?

Hospital tank = 10 gallons
bottle says 1 tab per 10 gallons
doing 50% water changes daily, continue with 1 tab, or half tab?


Thanks!

You guys are the best =)

[juliocarmine]

I was worried about how much smell the penicillin is giving off... it enveloped the entire room.... I feel as though if I take 50% out of the water.. I shouldn't be dosing 100% pennicillin, I should be dosing 50% of it.

=/


So I waterchanged I put seachem prime + stress coat (dechlorinator) and 50% aquarium salt + 50% penicillin.

If some one feels strongly against this, please let me know and I will place the other half of the tab in there with him.

his black stripes are not visible.. either because of the water change.. or because of the night time.

Tested the water 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia in hospital tank.

main tank after removing gravel with 50% water change, then next day 50% water change... tested for ammonia now and it has dropped in half, from 1ppm to .50ppm, I think it's working! lowest I've seen it in a while. nitrites still 0. I think I'm going to give the big tank a break and do a 50% water change tomorrow instead of today. in the mean time I can see the debris and such on the bottom of the tank because it's bare bottom! easy to clean. Really doesn't bother me not having gravel.

High 5 on that one guys! I know people like to argue the gravel or no gravel, but honestly unless you're utilizing live plants and GOOD at it... there's no sense in having the headache of gravel with discus.

very pleased with the results of removing gravel. The discus seem to be swimming around a lot more as well in the community tank.


Just another update. Thanks for reading the story of my life, ha!

=)

[pcsb23]

If it was me treating it, I would dose at the full amount each time. If you are concerned over o/d'ing do bigger water changes.

[Eddie]

If it was me treating it, I would dose at the full amount each time. If you are concerned over o/d'ing do bigger water changes.

Ditto, its important to maintain full dose no matter how the fish is reacting.

[kaceyo]

If it was me treating it, I would dose at the full amount each time. If you are concerned over o/d'ing do bigger water changes.
It's never a good idea to lower the dose of antibiotics as the bacteria will have a certain amount of resistance built up now. Lowering the dose can give them a chance to become immune to to the med and the fish may fall sick again.

[juliocarmine]

Thanks guys, I'll attempt larger water changes, full dosages as recommended. I put the other half dose in this morning, at water change in the evening will do a full dose.

:antlers:


Today his eyes look less cloudy. He's swimming up and down.. up and down... up and down... beefheart is floating around in his tank doesn't look too interested. he just goes up.. and down... up and down... as if he's practicing for an olympic event.

[Eddie]

No worries, fish can go off food when on antibiotics. Also, a healthy fish can go a long time without food.

[juliocarmine]

I'm sorry guys for some reason I thought I had a 36 gallon bowfront, I KNEW (since I had to get the hood/top etc) that it was a 46 gallon. I guess putting the sick fish in his 10 gallon hospital and buying all the medication and running around crazy I some how I lost my mind. I just remeasured it for peace of mind, and it IS a 46 gallon bowfront. Which doesn't really change much anyways since water changes + prime + api water conditioner doses always remained the same.

just an fyi!

=)

And thanks Eddie, I'm hoping the eye thing goes away soon so I can focus on his lack of eating over the weeks. He's endured a lot to still be colorful and have his dorsal fin raised high. He's a real champion.

[juliocarmine]

also do you think the addition of the 10 cardinal tetras could have been the problem with why he stopped eating weeks ago? Because when he paired and I put a divider in the tank.. he was always with his pair, they were actively eating and laid 3 batches of eggs over a month period. During this time a guy was giving me a really good deal on cardinal tetras, like a buy one get one free, so I couldn't pass up on getting 5 w/ 5 free. They were obviously put on the community side of the divider. But all and all.. all the discus knew each other.. and when the divider came down... he stopped eating. Could those little guys brought some sort of stress on him? or some disease/parasite? but I guess that wouldn't explain why he still doesnt' eat while he's alone in the hospital tank.. nor why any other discus was unaffected.

Strange for the most dominant discus of the tank to become suddenly so lost. Could it have been his confidence? lack of fertility? lost his mojo after realizing they couldn't successfully raise the eggs? He/she (I call it a he but I don't really know) turned dark as if creating the mucus for the soon (that never came) to come wrigglers/free swimmers, but then when they kept growing fungus and the divider wall came down he remained dark and stopped eating. The other discus of the pair is fine.

[Eddie]

Sure, any new fish can bring disease and that is why its extremely important to quarantine and purchase from a reliable/good source. One fish could take down hundreds/thousands of fish.

[juliocarmine]

just wanted to keep you guys updated... today is the 6th day of penicillin treatment, looking over the photos in this thread... I'd say he pretty much looks like he did on the 4th day.. the large clear bubble that went cloudy... has decreased in size... remains a bit cloudy, still larger than normal.


here are some photos to keep you guys on top of his progress.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC008x3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC008x4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC008x5.jpg


since he's been swimming around so much for the past two days, I took the medium plant out and put a little one in there with him to give him more room. he's still swimming up and down up and down up and down. at night he stops of course, but when the day starts he stays pretty active especially when I'm sitting on the couch infront of him.


the question I guess will soon become.. how much longer on penicillin, should I switch to maracyn to look for new results... or just be patient?

Thanks guys

[Eddie]

You don't want to switch the antibiotic if it showed improvement, finish 10 days at least. From the looks of the eyes, if the fish does not recover after 10 days, I'd use Kanamycin at 180 mg per each gallon.

[juliocarmine]

You don't want to switch the antibiotic if it showed improvement, finish 10 days at least. From the looks of the eyes, if the fish does not recover after 10 days, I'd use Kanamycin at 180 mg per each gallon.

how soon do you recommend treating with kanamycin (after ten days of the penicillin)?

for example, should I give him 2 or so days before beginning with the kanamycin?

do you have a place you'd recommend me purchasing it from off of the internet? (I'm from New York, fyi).

My local fish store (that's not a petco) is 1 and half hours away where they may have kanamycin, but if I can save the trip and just order it now for it to arrive, that would be better for me. And while I'm at it, anything else I should buy to help treat this guy?

Thanks Eddie!
:antlers:

[Jennie]

http://www.4fishstuff.com/index.php?cPath=61&osCsid=iama0h1s6u8soq30uab3eh4td7

[juliocarmine]

Thanks Jennie!


After water change (70% + api water conditioner + seachem prime).... redosing salt, redosing vita-chem, redosing penicillin....

did that at 7pm, it's now 10:30pm.... I'm looking at him and he looks like he's losing his balance. On close examination I don't feel that the eyes have made any large strides in recovering. The eyes actually look large still, and cloudy.

Tomorrow will be the 8th day on penicillin.

I still have meth blue, maracyn, and metro.

I'm ordering the other medicine in the link Jennie posted.


he may be weakening. I need to start thinking of plan B.

=/


here is a photo and a close up of him. His balance is definitely a bit off. he wasn't swimming up and down up and down up and down like he has previously days. I'm getting worried =(


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0083.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0083x2.jpg


and for reference he is is earlier on

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0009-1.jpg

here is is before all this mess

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/IMG_0758-1.jpg


=(

[juliocarmine]

should I try "garlic guard" or something to get him to eat as well?

[juliocarmine]

will this work for kanamycin?

http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-881-Kanaplex-5gram/dp/B0002DGMXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292989234&sr=8-1

it's cheaper, and has 5grams = 5,000 mgs, which at 180 mg doses would be more than 27 days of treatment, which is more realistic... instead of buying those big buckets of kanamycin!

kanaplex from seachem is basically the same stuff?

I'm thinking about getting that + garlicguard

let me know guys, thanks!

[Jennie]

Ask eddie or Paul before proceding..pm either one

[pcsb23]

I've not used KanaPlex but note it is 40% kanamycin sulfate, I have used this though http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products2.html#K
You could get the Kana-Pro if that size fits better.

[Elite Aquaria]

Hey guys...I know some of you are not aware that I also sell the fish medications for our hobby...Click Here (http://www.eliteaquaria.com/AQUASCIENCE_KANAMYACIN_POWDER_p/akan.htm) to support one of your sponsors. ;) ;) ;)

[juliocarmine]

Thanks everyone, I'm going to order the 50 grams Kanamycin from Dan's Elite Aquaria =)


I'll begin this treatment as soon as it comes in, seeing as the fish isn't looking so good.



Still curious about "garlic guard" or something like that to stimulate him to start eating.


I'm aware that you don't want too much in the water, so recommendations on it's use during treatment is appreciated. The discus just hasn't eaten in so long I don't think he's going to last much longer.


If anyone can let me know how I should treat with the Kanamycin, I would also really appreciate that so I can be ready for when it comes in.

Should I salt with kanamycin? continue with the vita-chem per water change? daily?

I'd be lost without you guys/girls, so thank you so much and I hope you all have a wonderful and joyous holiday season!


:antlers:

[pcsb23]

I dose kanamycin at 3.5mg/litre, salt can be used. Daily w/c and dose for 10 days.

Don't bother with garlic guard or vita-chem.

[Eddie]

I agree, forget the garlic guard and vita chem.

[kaceyo]

I use kanamycin at 150mg/10gals, which is very close to the amount Paul uses. I also agree with chucking the other additives. The closer you can come to pure clean water the better.

[juliocarmine]

I'm waiting on the kanamycin to come in.

I haven't stopped with the penicillin daily treatements and water changes.

It seems today his eyes are MUCH clearer, size of bubble still remains larger than normal.

He's starting to look visibly slimmer.

Should I give him time to rest before the kanamycin comes in and I start with that? Or continue with the penicillin until the kanamycin comes in?

how do I do the transition from penicillin to kanamycin in the hospital tank?

largest water change possible, run filter with carbon for a day, no penicillin, next day begin kanamycin? or?


here are a bunch of photos of the discus today... sorry no flash, so he'll look a bit darker, but note the eyes... visibly red (not foggy), eye bubbles still large.. but smaller maybe? it seems that they are a little smaller.

his head is visibly slimmer though. lack of food is beginning to take a toll on him physically.

=(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0003-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0005-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0008-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0009-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0012-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0016.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0019.jpg

also since I've barebottomed, I'm noticing small white particles gathering at the tank's bottom.. is this normal waste? it almost looks like dandruff.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0001.jpg


Thanks for the input everyone!

=)

~~~ HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL OF YOU ~~~

[Eddie]

Well the fish has probably got more things going on than just the internal infection. Its very poor quality and stunted which may indicate internal worms.

Personally I'd stop the penicillin now and give the fish a few days off treatment before moving to the Kanamycin. This will give some rest on the fishes kidneys. Also, I would go with the higher amount I mentioned, it's straight text book. I always direct others to use to this amount, and the success rate is good.

Eddie

[juliocarmine]

okay, I'll continue with the daily water changes and salt for now, no penicillin.

he should have a couple days off before the new meds come in.

Thanks eddie!

[juliocarmine]

OK! I just got the kanamycin in the mail (THANKS DAN!)... I'm going to do a water change then administer the dosage as mentioned by eddie, he posted 180 mg per gallon (10 gallon tank) 1800 mg of kanamycin correct? sounds a bit much in consideration to what others have mentioned. but I'll do what it takes. please correct if this is good before I administer.
Also after initial dosage, every day 50% water changes with 5 gallon kanamycin dosage after? or continue with 10 gallon kanamycin dosage per water change? I can do up to 70% water changes with 10 gallon kanamycin if that's a good alternative.

I've kept up with daily water changes, he's been 4 days without me administering penicillin, just salt putting in what I took out, he looks about the same as when we left off, clear eyes but still bulging.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0009-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0011-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0013.jpg


thanks for your help, yet again

[juliocarmine]

I googled kanamycin dosage and got this

DOSAGE: 250-500 mg per 20 gallons. Treat every 48 hours with a 25% water change before each treatment. Treat for 10 days.

[juliocarmine]

also side note... I've been noticing my bathroom shower sometimes gets a bit blue tinted, I believe this is due to "copper sulfate" in my well water ?

Could this be a serious problem for my discus? This is the water I use to water-change, I use it with API tap water conditioner and Seachem Prime, is this why my one discus isn't eating? Seeing that the rest of the discus (all 5) are perfectly fine?

hmm!

[Eddie]

I googled kanamycin dosage and got this

DOSAGE: 250-500 mg per 20 gallons. Treat every 48 hours with a 25% water change before each treatment. Treat for 10 days.

Googling will give you any information and you must consider that source.

180-250 mg per each individual gallon, treat every 3 days with a 50% water change between treatments, for a total of 3 treatments.

[juliocarmine]

You're the best Eddie! Thanks! =)

[Eddie]

You're the best Eddie! Thanks! =)

Keep us updated and Happy New Years!

[juliocarmine]

Hi everyone,

I just administered the 3rd dose of kanamycin (approx 200 mg per gallon -with 3 days between and 50% water change on administration)

looking back at the last set of photos I posted... I think he's looking just about the same. Still doesn't have an active interest in eating, eyes still have a bubble look. colors remain vibrant despite his lack of eating and eyes.

Don't know if I'm going to see any significant change within the next 3 days of this newly administered kanamycin. I still have the maracyn I haven't tried.. ?

Don't know where we go from here... the guy is REALLY hanging in there. It must be seriously like over 2 months that I haven't seen him eat, he must be eating when I'm not looking? how can he STILL be alive?????

Anyways hope you're all having a wonderful start to your new years! All my best regards.



photos to update you all on our survivor:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0003-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0001-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0004.jpg
that's a frozen blood worm floating there... I still try to feed him and let it sit in there with him for a few hours before removing it. I don't find any feces or anything I at least can identify as waste from the fish. I wonder if this is part of the main problem is his lack of eating.. perhaps build up of gasses some sort of super constipation that is making his eyes the way they are?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0005-2.jpg


thanks again everyone for the input :balloon:

[Eddie]

3 days of Kana is still early, keep it going as I suggested. Re-treating after 3 days with a 50% water change between treatments.

[juliocarmine]

3 days of Kana is still early, keep it going as I suggested. Re-treating after 3 days with a 50% water change between treatments.

hey eddie, thanks for sticking it out with me... I'll be continuing treatment... and I HAVE BIG NEWS! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT MYSELF. I'm crossing my fingers that I'm right... but the discus is starting to take an interest in what food I put into the tank... I see her moving around more now... like curiously looking around, and also I've seen her peck a few times at the sinking pellets on the aquarium floor! I think there is a definite improvement!

continuing treatments as recommended =)

[Eddie]

Sounds great, hope the fish has a full recover. ;)

[juliocarmine]

yessss

it is confirmed!

the sick discus is actively eating... when I put in food she doesn't swim up for it... but she waits until I back away.. then by then the food has sunk to the floor.. and she goes around with her nose down and pecking it up. She's also going to the bathroom now, which is something I haven't seen in her tank in weeks!

eyes still remain like a clear bubble though... so I'm continuing with the kanamycin for another 2 treatments (total of 6), I'll post pictures on thursday when I do the next dosage.

I can always try the maracyn for puffy eyes?

[Eddie]

yessss

it is confirmed!

the sick discus is actively eating... when I put in food she doesn't swim up for it... but she waits until I back away.. then by then the food has sunk to the floor.. and she goes around with her nose down and pecking it up. She's also going to the bathroom now, which is something I haven't seen in her tank in weeks!

eyes still remain like a clear bubble though... so I'm continuing with the kanamycin for another 2 treatments (total of 6), I'll post pictures on thursday when I do the next dosage.

I can always try the maracyn for puffy eyes?

Complete days of Kanamycin

[juliocarmine]

Hi everyone!

I'm updating you all... and again asking for your wonderful advice.

I'm happy to say that the discus is eating actively. He sees me coming and swims upwards to wait for food to be dropped, it doesn't necessarily eat the food until it drops to the bottom (sinking pellets, beef heart, frozen blood worms), but the discus swims around and looks much better overall. HOWEVER... the eyes, particularly just one.... seems to still be having a problem. The color of the eyes have turned a nice red (I think that's good?) but the left eye is still a big bubble. The right eye seems to have gotten better though.

Please reference these photos.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/SAM_0123.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/SAM_0125.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/SAM_0131.jpg
I've dosed this discus with Kanamycin at least 7 times, (3 day intervals with 50% water change, 50% dosed aquarium salt) which has gotten the fish to eat.. but not necessarily fix the eye problem.

Is it okay to treat a discus at the rate I'm treating it for an extended period of time? Should I give him a rest? Continue with Kanamycin? Try Maracyn?


Thank you all!


=)

[Eddie]

Man, thats pretty insane that the fish has gone through that course of Kana and still having popeye. There really isn't a whole lot more you can do. Aside from the eyes, he looks great. There is a product called Focus that you combine with food, it contains nitrofurantoin which would be my next step. Get something in its belly that can combat it from the inside.

Eddie

[juliocarmine]

great idea eddie!

let's take this battle to the inside.

Could you provide me with a link to the "Focus" medication? I've been googling it and I just get silly energy drinks for discus haha thank you

also what would be a good food to mix it with? do I soak for example beef heart with it? or do I mash it and use a little banana to keep it stuck together? soak the blood worms? no idea! thanks

=)

[Eddie]

great idea eddie!

let's take this battle to the inside.

Could you provide me with a link to the "Focus" medication? I've been googling it and I just get silly energy drinks for discus haha thank you

also what would be a good food to mix it with? do I soak for example beef heart with it? or do I mash it and use a little banana to keep it stuck together? soak the blood worms? no idea! thanks

=)

If your fish is taking beefheart well, then let the beffheart thaw a LITTLE, not all the way and then mix the focus into it. Then refreeze and feed later that day.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Focus.html

[juliocarmine]

ok the focus is on the way!


should I continue with the kana in the mean time?

I could probably fit 1 or 2 more doses of kana in with the 3 day interval by the time the focus comes in. the focus says it can be combined with other medications, should I try the focus with the kana same time? I bought maracyn and I never tried it for the pop eye.. could I do the maracyn with the focus instead? stop with the aquarium salt?


thaaaanks eddyyyyyy

:bandana:

[Eddie]

ok the focus is on the way!


should I continue with the kana in the mean time?

I could probably fit 1 or 2 more doses of kana in with the 3 day interval by the time the focus comes in. the focus says it can be combined with other medications, should I try the focus with the kana same time? I bought maracyn and I never tried it for the pop eye.. could I do the maracyn with the focus instead? stop with the aquarium salt?


thaaaanks eddyyyyyy

:bandana:

I'd stop the salt and Kana and just clean water for now. YOu may not even need to use the focus but we'll see.

[TURQ64]

I use Maracyn and Maroxy a lot..for decades.. They are made with stabilized clorides (salts) this is why, by themselves, they are benign to fish, eggs, and plants..I'm not expert enough to know what happens when stronger chemicals are added along with them..Best google it and see...

[juliocarmine]

Thanks guys

stopping with the aquarium salt & kana, going to do every other day water 50% water changes for him, that should be sufficient.

:antlers:

[juliocarmine]

Focus came in...

it doesn't say how much focus (comes with little teaspoon) per amount of food.

It only says that it can be combined with an additional medication, at a 5:1 ratio (Focus:Alternative medication) but nothing about how much to dose into the food

=/

should I mix it with the metronidazole I have at 5:1, and dose accordingly to what the metro asks for? or just put one or two of these mini spoon fulls that it comes with?

[juliocarmine]

I was just re-reading the thread to make sure I didn't miss anything...

were you saying I should give it a few days of just clean water? Maybe a week with no medication at all... see if anything happen before I begin with the focus?


I also haven't tried the maracyn yet
and I only did 3 days of metro.. which had positive results at the time.


Thanks

:D

[Eddie]

Don't mix the focus with other meds, just food at 5:1.

Maracyn is erythromycin which is great for gram positive bacteria, of which is not common in aquaria.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[juliocarmine]

I'm on my second day of frozen beefheart + focus

it seems as though the fish might be eating it, but the mixture is like a frozen caked beef heart... so it disolves into the water.

is that okay? I see focus dust at the bottom of the tank, and the water seems a bit cloudy, will this be bad for the fish? should I vacuum it out? the fish takes a while to snoop around and eat it off the floor... he doesn't like.. attack the food, so I have to let it sit in the tank, and it dissolves a bit.

=/

[Eddie]

Don't worry about the dust, just keep the fish eating the mix. How are the eyes?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[juliocarmine]

I'm not sure how much the discus has eaten of the focus... so I can't really say. I don't see any drastic improvement yet.

I am not running the filter right now, because it seems to pull the food away from the floor sometimes, let me know if you think the filter should be running.

[juliocarmine]

and while I continue to annoy eddie with my questions... haha might as well add this one:

do I only feed him the focus food? or do I mix it up? I feed him 2-3 times a day with only the focus food, removing the remains of the previous feeding each time.

maybe I should mix it up and give him pellets / blood worms? or just the strict focus food diet?

:confused:

[Eddie]

and while I continue to annoy eddie with my questions... haha might as well add this one:

do I only feed him the focus food? or do I mix it up? I feed him 2-3 times a day with only the focus food, removing the remains of the previous feeding each time.

maybe I should mix it up and give him pellets / blood worms? or just the strict focus food diet?

:confused:

Only food with focus until recovered


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[juliocarmine]

I haven't posted in a while.. so I wanted to keep you updated.


I am still feeding the discus a mixture of focus/ beefheart.

After a while I decided I would try Maracyn in the water while continuing to feed the focus.

Same result... fish is eating.. eyes still big and clear. Colors great... moving around.

so I decided to mix focus with metro and beef heart... which I am now feeding.

Same result.. fish is eating.. eyes still big and clear. Colors great... still moving around.

So now I am putting Maracyn 2 in the water, while continuing to feed focus with metro in beefheart. (doing 10 days like I did maracyn 1, 5 days left to go for maracyn 2)

Discus still has big clear eyes, still eating... still moving around... colors bright


I think it's the large clear eyes.. but it takes a while for the discus to be able to "get" the food. it can't eat the food in the water while it floats... it just waits for it to drop to the bottom.. then it pecks at the food.. usually takes 5 or so pecks before it actually gets the piece of beefheart. I think the large clear eyes is distorting the fish's vision... like when you're in a swimming pool with swimming goggles on... and you see things too far or too near kinda? but the fish IS eating everything I put in there and colors remain bright and discus swims around the 10 gallon tank slowly.. looking around...

Don't know what else to do. I have a couple more days to finish the maracyn two treatment. I will continue with the focus and metro.


I am thinking about putting the discus back with the community and just letting him be. But I feel like the fish will never get to the food as fast as the others.. and will just starve to death.. which I don't want. So I was thinking about putting it's original pair discus with it in the small 10 gallon.. but that's not enough for two pretty decent sized discus.


So that's where I am right now.


Thanks for reading.

=)

[kaceyo]

I would not move the fish or put any fish in with it. You want it to be as stress free as you can make it. Give it time to recover before changing things around.

[Eddie]

I would not move the fish or put any fish in with it. You want it to be as stress free as you can make it. Give it time to recover before changing things around.

I agree, but at this point, it would be culled.

This fish has gone through extensive antibiotics, both gram+/- and yet it will not respond. I feel there may be something wrong with the fishes organs internally, not sure exactly but the fish is not worth keeping IMO. If it is ill with something that is transmittable to others, you would be a world of hurt as it cannot be dealt with.