Six Nhamunda Reds Coming Tomorrow

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey guys, I have six nhamunda red discus coming tomorrow. They will be going in a 75 gallon QT. They have been treated for Hex only. I plan on deworming them. Any thing else they should be treated for?

[jimg]

send them to me I will treat them very well!

[Second Hand Pat]

Oh no, I have waited way to long for this. Nice try.

[Jennie]

treated for hex???

[jimg]

Hee hee!
I usually leave them alone for a few weeks/month temp 82 or so.
I have treated them in different ways I usually due metro then piperazine then prazi, but the last couple orders I got I treated with metro, prazi and flubendazole and clout w/dmso. It seems to work fine, but do not do it on domestics! all head standers/deaths
I have a recent order that I will probably not treat at all unless I see something.

[Ed13]

Just make sure they don't get "nocamera syndrome"?!;);)

[Second Hand Pat]

That's what John said when I asked via email.

[Second Hand Pat]

You do this to clean them up?


Hee hee!
I usually leave them alone for a few weeks/month temp 82 or so.
I have treated them in different ways I usually due metro then piperazine then prazi, but the last couple orders I got I treated with metro, prazi and flubendazole and clout w/dmso. It seems to work fine, but do not do it on domestics! all head standers/deaths
I have a recent order that I will probably not treat at all unless I see something.

Jennie and Vera will not let get away with that.


Just make sure they don't get "nocamera syndrome"?!;);)

[jimg]

Yes

[Second Hand Pat]

Where do I find flubendazole and dmso? Do you treat together or each separate? I noticed Dale in another thread mixes this all together with black worms.

[jimg]

Where do I find flubendazole and dmso? Do you treat together or each separate? I noticed Dale in another thread mixes this all together with black worms.

pm sent

[foreese]

I used Dale's method and it worked great. There are several links to get the Flub.. and DMSO you can get from an organic market.

[jimg]

I used Dale's method and it worked great. There are several links to get the Flub.. and DMSO you can get from an organic market.

Did you do this on domestics or wilds?

[jimg]

www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ flubendazole 10%

[Second Hand Pat]

Have found everything except the flubendazole. Also will FDBWs work?

[Second Hand Pat]

Link for the flubendazole is http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html

[Second Hand Pat]

I tried to order clout but it can not be shipped legally to florida. Is there a substitute?

[Dave B]

Some of these posts seem to be very high on meds, which would make me uncomfortable (though if it's good enough for Dale it's good enough for me). What cocktail were you planning to use?

This must be very exciting for you. I can't wait to get mine into my tank.

Don't make us wait for pictures!

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, what are you getting? agree with comments on the meds and not sure on the mix.

[Eddie]

If they've gone through a metro treatment than de-worming isn't a bad idea.

[sergeyal]

Hi to all wild discus lovers
this is my first post here , although i read this forum for awhile
I also have 8 Nahmunda Macuricana in my Qt ,2 of them red.
I treat them with jbl sphirohexol against hex and with kusuri de wormer (flubendazole based).
it worked fine in the past with my manacapuru.

I've noticed that Nahmunda Macuricana discus is very variable
among them i have 2 red ,1 "heckel bar ",1 with deep body in addition to common s.haraldi appearance.
Interesting what variations you gonna get

[jimg]

yes the fdbw will be fine, but none of my fish touched the worms, dmso instantly kills them anyway

Just a warning.... I had a lot of problems doing this treatment on domestics, major head standing,floating at the top for at least a week and juvie losses after second dose. wilds tolerated it fine.

[vera]

Just make sure they don't get "nocamera syndrome"?!;);)

+1 lol , Pat ,it is already tomorrow in Ukraine I can't wait to see yr babes , hope they will arrive on time , good luck :)

[Second Hand Pat]

They are here. Arrived 9:00 ish. One bag lost some water and this discus was breathing hard at the top of the bag. Added some tank water and dropped in an air stone in the bag. He is now level in the bag so I'm hoping he is aerated a bit better now. All the other discus are level in their bags. Hard to tell what they look like as they are double bagged with newspaper between the bags to keep them dark.

Other then a little water lost them were well packed and box was in perfect condition and warm. You guys might get a blow by blow today. First discus here and super excited.

[sergeyal]

Good luck.

Did you check amonia concentratoin in that bags?

[Second Hand Pat]

Nope, want to know? Actually might be good to check anyway.

[sergeyal]

it can be high because of the trip

[Second Hand Pat]

I would expect it to be and it's 1.0 mgL. So here the question. Do I add all the ammonia to the tank?

[ZX10R]

Is that bad if I am excited about your fish also? I must say after seeing wilds in person at Kraig's (Kingdom Come Discus) I really really wish I would of filled one of my tanks with some. Goodluck I can't wait to see pics.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Sean. The acclimation is almost done.

[sergeyal]

Do I add all the ammonia to the tank?
I've been always told not to do that , although i don't know the exact reason.

[Second Hand Pat]

They are in the tank and swimming all over the place. They do not seem a bit shy. Nice job John and very nice fish. Pictures are not great, iphone and low light. So here they are
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday008.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday009.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday011.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday012.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday014.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday015.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-firstday016.jpg

OK, bored yet. :)

[ZX10R]

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;711942OK, bored yet. :)[/QUOTE]

NO!!!! I am so jealous

[Second Hand Pat]

NO!!!! I am so jealous

I hope so ... love being a brat

[ZX10R]

I hope so ... love being a brat

That shows :p

How big are they?

[Second Hand Pat]

I would guess around 6 inches.

[ZX10R]

They look great can't wait to see pics of them when they get settled in and color up. I see you are using the same titanium heater I am using. Mine works great I have two titanium heaters and love them.

[William Palumbo]

Looking good Pat!...I like!...Bill

[BobB]

Where did you buy them?

[wgtaylor]

Hey Pat,
Those are some really nice thick healthy looking wilds John sent you. Congratulations !:):)

[Jennie]

WHOOOOT! Finally Pat! Those look really good!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks guys and Jennie, they seem to settling in nicely. Three are showing nice honey color to the base body with very little stress bar and three are slightly darken with a bit deeper stress bar. The breathing is nice and regular. A couple are even picking at the bottom.

Thanks Sean, I love the titanium heaters and they do not burn the fish. I have several.

Thank also Bill, They look even better now.

Hey Bob, got them from snookin21 or John who is a sponsor here.

Thanks wgtaylor, agreed, they nice and thick too.

Yes Jennie, about time. I'm hooked.

I will get better pictures later. Have company coming and have to make room on the camera.

[vera]

Awesome fishes Pat !! im jealous I wish these in my tank , after a stressed trip they look great , wait couple days to see them at full glory , wow !!

[Second Hand Pat]

More Pictures, these fish have some nice color.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC290247.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC290245.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC290248.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, these guys are already very nice.

[Larry Bugg]

If you think they have nice color now just wait a week, a month or 6 months. Wilds take a long time for all their color to come back. You will be amazed 6 months from now.

John does a great job and has some excellent fish!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Bugman, I have read that and so excited to see them in their full glory. They are starting to push each other around so thinking they are feeling comfortable. Which discus is that on your avatar? Looks a little familiar.

[Larry Bugg]

That is actually a Stendker Tefe from Hans. This is a domestic strain they produced to look like a wild. Very striking discus. I have Uatuma blues and Japrua greens from John and couldn't be happier. I would like some of the Nhamunda Reds. I am waiting for John to post pictures from the newest shipment.

[jimg]

Very Nice!! Good luck with them.
Just a little note; I wouldn't put an air stone in the bag they were shipped in, the co2 they release breathing in the bag lowers the ph which keeps ammonia less toxic, when the bag is opened the co2 releases and can cause the ph to rise causing ph burn or ammonia burns.

John does good with his wilds!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Bugman, that's a good looking fish. I actually had an email exchange with Hans about those and his other two stains which resemble wilds but I really wanted true wilds.

Thanks Jim, did not know that. John does do well with his wilds. He was happy to see this thread.

I am totally in love with these fish. All of them are that beautiful honey color, no clamped fins and lightly colored stress bars.

[ZX10R]

That is actually a Stendker Tefe from Hans

I love your Tefe I have the Alenquer and Santarem from Hans.

[Second Hand Pat]

I want pictures of your guys but you need 10 posts for pictures.


Hi to all wild discus lovers
this is my first post here , although i read this forum for awhile
I also have 8 Nahmunda Macuricana in my Qt ,2 of them red.
I treat them with jbl sphirohexol against hex and with kusuri de wormer (flubendazole based).
it worked fine in the past with my manacapuru.

I've noticed that Nahmunda Macuricana discus is very variable
among them i have 2 red ,1 "heckel bar ",1 with deep body in addition to common s.haraldi appearance.
Interesting what variations you gonna get

[sergeyal]

You right:)

you can see some nahmundas in "Aquarium Glaser" news page .
at least 2 of mine look very similar to Glaser nahmundas.

it seems you fish arrived in very good condition ,much better than mine.

[Second Hand Pat]

I found the Aquarium Glaser website, there are five nhamunda pictures, blue, royal blue, semi-royal blue and rose. I bet the rose is what we are calling the red.

http://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/news.php#

[Second Hand Pat]

The reds seem less settled this morning than last night. It seems they are trying to look thought the bottom of the tank. I do have a white background underneath the tank which is about a 1/2 inch from the glass. You think they are trying to figure that out?

Also I was an idiot and failed to move the cycled filter to their tank until last night. Too excited with their arrival and company yesterday. Me bad. Measurable ammonia is .25 with the API test kit and could be why they are less settled. Any suggests other than a good water change and patient.

Also tried very small bits of food and no interest in that but not worried about that.

[sergeyal]

take a look at the Ouscazz's thread called
"Just wanted to show my Nhamundá Blue"
eventually they all became red in some degree

[sergeyal]

The reds seem less settled this morning than last night. It seems they are trying to look thought the bottom of the tank. I do have a white background underneath the tank which is about a 1/2 inch from the glass. You think they are trying to figure that out?

Also I was an idiot and failed to move the cycled filter to their tank until last night. Too excited with their arrival and company yesterday. Me bad. Measurable ammonia is .25 with the API test kit and could be why they are less settled. Any suggests other than a good water change and patient.

Also tried very small bits of food and no interest in that but not worried about that.

Sorry i didn't noticed your questions before.
I think they be more comfortable if you create more shade ,so they won't be confused by their reflections from the bottom.
also intensive lights can stress them at the begining.
maybe some water cycling/conditioning products may improve w.quality or urge your cycle?

[William Palumbo]

Pat, put a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank. Wilds like that, and it will keep them from trying to "swim" thru the bottom. Live blackworms are the BEST to get wilds to start eating. Keep the light VERY dim...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

sergeyal, I can see where reflections could cause the above behavior. This morning I introduced an aquarium light on one end of the tank and placed a towel draped over sides and top on the other end for the tank for shade.

They will swim under for aquarium lights for brief periods. The filter is cycled but may not have enough bacteria for the needs of six discus. I was planning for this with extra WCs if needed and bacteria in a bottle.

[sergeyal]

Is there any aggression between them?

It's currently my main headache, there are some who need to put on weight quickly, but the dominant do not allow them free access to food

[vera]

Pat, put a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank. Wilds like that, and it will keep them from trying to "swim" thru the bottom. ...Bill
+1 , Pat dont worry , they will settle , just keep us supplied with nice pics :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, put a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank. Wilds like that, and it will keep them from trying to "swim" thru the bottom. Live blackworms are the BEST to get wilds to start eating. Keep the light VERY dim...Bill

Thanks Bill, I just saw this post. I already adding some white sand to part of the bottom so will cover the rest of the bottom. I have FD blackworms from Al and frozen blood worms. I will try the black worms first. John did have them eating blood worms.

[Second Hand Pat]

Is there any aggression between them?

It's currently my main headache, there are some who need to put on weight quickly, but the dominant do not allow them free access to food

No aggression yet. Might be too early. I have seen some mild pushing.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Vera, try and get some more pictures tonight.

I did a WC this afternoon. Those guys did not care and were playing in the current while filling the tank. They are not shy but I keep my movement slow to not spook them.

[Second Hand Pat]

I finished adding a thin layer of sand to the bottom and flipped the light upside down. Happy fish, swimming all over the tank. Seemed to be getting more natural behaviors.

[Jennie]

good news!

[Second Hand Pat]

good news!

Thanks Jennie, live and learn.

[William Palumbo]

Told ya!...Bill

[Jennie]

That's the hobby...always learning.

[Second Hand Pat]

Told ya!...Bill

You are too funny Bill and you were totally right. So question? will I always need to keep them under such low light conditions?

Here are some pictures, not great but learning. :) Fighting low light and reflections.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC300001.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC300007.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/PC300010.jpg

[R1_Ridah]

That is actually a Stendker Tefe from Hans. This is a domestic strain they produced to look like a wild. Very striking discus. I have Uatuma blues and Japrua greens from John and couldn't be happier. I would like some of the Nhamunda Reds. I am waiting for John to post pictures from the newest shipment.

Makes note to self..... look into Stendker Tefe.....

[R1_Ridah]

Very nice pick up on the 6 Reds.... kicking myself for not getting more myself. So jealous of your 6... awesome site to see them in a group like yours.

I could only imagine how much nicer they will look once settled in.

The ones I have just keeps getting better and better as time passes.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/R1_Ridah/12-30-10%20Discus/IMG_0044JPG2.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Joey, go to Han's online store, he does have some tefe pictures.

[Second Hand Pat]

Very nice pick up on the 6 Reds.... kicking myself for not getting more myself. So jealous of your 6... awesome site to see them in a group like yours.

I could only imagine how much nicer they will look once settled in.

The ones I have just keeps getting better and better as time passes.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/R1_Ridah/12-30-10%20Discus/IMG_0044JPG2.jpg

Is that a red in the middle and mine will look like. Nice fish

[Second Hand Pat]

..and what camera are you using. I got this new olympus and it can not do these low light pictures.

[R1_Ridah]

..and what camera are you using. I got this new olympus and it can not do these low light pictures.

I shoot with a Canon 7D. I just have my regular 48"Jebo power compacts for my tank so I have to shoot in high ISO. Can you increase your ISO? just note that as you increase the ISO the picture can get grainy.

Yes, the one pictured is a Red I bought from John. I picked up two and wish I would have gotten more =-(

For this picture my settings are the following;

ISO - 1250
F-Stop - F/4
Exposure Time - 1/40 sec
Focal length - 35mm

I also used my camera flash by taking it from an angle. Shot it looking down so the flash is pointing downwards.

Here's another picture of the same fish with a Red Cover. I'm very happy with the color for it being wild. As for coloration it may depend from it's environment. Our tank conditions could differ so the color could vary based on mood. So it's hard to say if yours will be the same as mine. I have noticed that they do shift from the light honey color to like a deep clay pot looking color based on the time of day and mood.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/R1_Ridah/12-30-10%20Discus/IMG_0061JPG2.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

I know how to adjust the ISO. Need to find the rest. I'm not using a flash with these reds yet. I want them nice and settled before I subject them to that. Thanks for sharing your red. Know what to expect from mine.

[sergeyal]

R1_Ridah ,is it nahmunda or another geographic morph?

you have very impressive fish
specially liked your adult uaru fernandezyepezi .
any thoughts on breeding them?

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys are finally mouthing flake food. I'm not sure if they are eating any but I will see if I pull out any food with the WC later this afternoon. They remain happy and active, good color and with no to slightly dark stress bar showing.

Bill, do you keep yours under dim lights all the time?

[William Palumbo]

They really don't need bright lights. But, once settled, they will handle lighting better...Bill

[R1_Ridah]

R1_Ridah ,is it nahmunda or another geographic morph?

you have very impressive fish
specially liked your adult uaru fernandezyepezi .
any thoughts on breeding them?

I bought as Nahmunda from the same source (Snookn21)? Do you think it's a different morph.

The Pandas I had to pass of to a friend because they were getting way too aggressive. Soon as I saw signs of aggression towards my Discus they had to go. He's going to try and breed them as we believe they could possibly be a male/female pair. As beautiful as they look, they are devilish of a fish...with their beaty red eyes and sharp teeth they can do real damage. I was going to set up another tank for them, but he really wanted to enjoy them as well. If he gets tired of them I just told him to let me know and I'll set up a tank for them.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Bill, I do not consider any of my lights bright but they do :) I will let their comfort be my guide as I am getting better at reading them.

[sergeyal]

Do you think it's a different morph?
No , just wanted to confirm that nahmundas have such a potential to became so beautiful:)

[wgtaylor]

Hey Pat,
I'm like Bill Palumbo, low light for wilds but I do have one 120 gal with wilds and plenty of floating plants on top for shade with stronger lighting for plant growth.
The wilds seem to like it a lot, and has four 4 foot light bulbs.
One method some use to get them used to lighting is to place aluminum foil under the light strip. Every couple days add a few more holes in the foil to allow more light through until all the foil is removed. They will get used to it and if you want floating plants or just part of the tank illuminated its possible. All in what you like and the wilds tolerate. Small incremental changes wilds seem to tolerate well.
Bill

[sergeyal]

I'm able to post images now:)

high body?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR25pKexdPI/AAAAAAAAD7Q/Cj_nxyvn5Bw/DSCF0403.JPGhttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GFw2Fi7I/AAAAAAAAD7o/ZbmMJSmF-fM/DSCF0416.JPG


this individual is suppose to become fully red
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TRwzVng3N1I/AAAAAAAAD5I/Cj9EsXCiBfk/DSCF0320.JPGhttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR25v66JvfI/AAAAAAAAD7Y/-nQwmWLt9vg/DSCF0397.JPG

this one has a broad central bar (and a brocken pelvic fin)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GAv3mWgI/AAAAAAAAD7k/ixRVANBhSIM/DSCF0415.JPG
typical s.haraldi appearance
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GJq4sCVI/AAAAAAAAD7s/dsX2bUxIVJ0/DSCF0417.JPG



these are manacapurus , they really nasty toward newcomers
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TPi3uRPzSPI/AAAAAAAADzQ/J-Nty_73E4U/s640/DSCF0202.JPG

[BobB]

What size tank do you have them in?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Pat,
I'm like Bill Palumbo, low light for wilds but I do have one 120 gal with wilds and plenty of floating plants on top for shade with stronger lighting for plant growth.
The wilds seem to like it a lot, and has four 4 foot light bulbs.
One method some use to get them used to lighting is to place aluminum foil under the light strip. Every couple days add a few more holes in the foil to allow more light through until all the foil is removed. They will get used to it and if you want floating plants or just part of the tank illuminated its possible. All in what you like and the wilds tolerate. Small incremental changes wilds seem to tolerate well.
Bill

Thanks Bill, I might try that. These wilds will be going in a 100 gallon oceanic with a 108 watt wave point. Which is not as bright as the light I have flipped outside down on the QT now.

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm able to post images now:)

high body?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR25pKexdPI/AAAAAAAAD7Q/Cj_nxyvn5Bw/DSCF0403.JPGhttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GFw2Fi7I/AAAAAAAAD7o/ZbmMJSmF-fM/DSCF0416.JPG


this individual is suppose to become fully red
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TRwzVng3N1I/AAAAAAAAD5I/Cj9EsXCiBfk/DSCF0320.JPGhttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR25v66JvfI/AAAAAAAAD7Y/-nQwmWLt9vg/DSCF0397.JPG

this one has a broad central bar (and a brocken pelvic fin)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GAv3mWgI/AAAAAAAAD7k/ixRVANBhSIM/DSCF0415.JPG
typical s.haraldi appearance
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TR3GJq4sCVI/AAAAAAAAD7s/dsX2bUxIVJ0/DSCF0417.JPG



these are manacapurus , they really nasty toward newcomers
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TPi3uRPzSPI/AAAAAAAADzQ/J-Nty_73E4U/s640/DSCF0202.JPG

sergeyal, they are beautiful. Is the one with the broad central bar a heckel?

[Second Hand Pat]

What size tank do you have them in?

Bob, 75 if you are referring to me.

[sergeyal]

Is the one with the broad central bar a heckel?
no , Symphysodon Haraldi for sure.

I've checked Nahmunda region in Heiko Blehers ,vol 1
he describes it as " unique melting pot for discus" and "more variants occur there than in any other place I know"
also found an images that reminds me my fish
"broad bar" may be from Terra Santa ,lago Algodoa
"almost red " :) from lago Macuricana.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Sergeyal, I did not think it was a heckel but was not sure. Also Heiko Bleher has a Nahmunda biotope on his website. I am using it as a guide for my show tank which these reds to go into after quarantine.

On a positive note these guys are starting to eat. This is day 4 and weening them from crack is taking a while. They are not eating with great gusto but that will come. The pushing behaviors are getting stronger too. Four of the six are coloring up with red on the outer edges of the upper and lower fins and seeing more red in the base color of a few.

[discuspaul]

Pat, your fish look fabulous - I'm so happy for you - and very ENVIOUS !

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Paul, I really like them too. Long time coming.

[Second Hand Pat]

Finally some halfway decent pictures. Please excuse the dirty glass.

This guy is my favorite of the group.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1010033.jpg

Group shots
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1010037.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1010034.jpg

A bit of red showing.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1010036.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1010045.jpg

[William Palumbo]

VERY, very nice Pat. Just for me, it needs to be decorated much more, and they will show their colors more...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

You mean the tank?

[William Palumbo]

Yes the tank...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, LOL...that's the QT, here's their home tank.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Discus%20Tank/IPhoneDec24007.jpg

[William Palumbo]

LOL!...My bad!...Yea, that's the tank!!!...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

VERY, very nice Pat. Just for me, it needs to be decorated much more, and they will show their colors more...Bill

Thanks Bill, your comments make me feel like I am doing right by these guys. Thanks.

[discuspaul]

Yeah, that's the tank, Pat !
They will look stunning in there !

[discuspaul]

BTW Pat, what do you have in the home tank now ? Can't really tell, but it looks like just a school of cardinals, or neons ?
Are they healthy & doing well, and your tank fully cycled, with parameters all A-OK ?
If so, what is your need for quarantining the discus ? Doesn't matter how long you quarantime those discus, if the cardinals have something they're resistant to, but the discus are not, the discus will be affected anyway, whether you put them in tomorrow, or a month from now. If the discus are resistant to something & pass it on to the cardinals, and a few of them don't deal with it, what have you lost ? The discus are the focus, are they not ?
What am I missing here ?

[William Palumbo]

BTW Pat, what do you have in the home tank now ? Can't really tell, but it looks like just a school of cardinals, or neons ?
Are they healthy & doing well, and your tank fully cycled, with parameters all A-OK ?
If so, what is your need for quarantining the discus ? Doesn't matter how long you quarantime those discus, if the cardinals have something they're resistant to, but the discus are not, the discus will be affected anyway, whether you put them in tomorrow, or a month from now. If the discus are resistant to something & pass it on to the cardinals, and a few of them don't deal with it, what have you lost ? The discus are the focus, are they not ?
What am I missing here ?

I was wondering that myself...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

First, thanks for the first post...and yes, there are some cardinals, rummy nose, BN and a couple of cories...all healthy and the tank is full cycled and about four months old. Parameters all good. If you read from the beginning of this thread these discus still need to be "cleaned up" and I am planning on using Dale Jordan's treatment and it should be done in a QT. Right?

[discuspaul]

OK - that may be a very cautious approach when dealing with wilds - can't hurt. (but necessary in your circumstances ? - you're not adding them in with other discus, after all.) But perhaps the quarantine may not be needed for as long a time as you're planning, if at all. Again, my question is: If you didn't do the de-worming, etc., who in the overall plan of things would you possibly be affecting - the cards & rm's, right ? If it were me, I really wouldn't worry about it - but perhaps some guru can tell you differently.
If you wish, do your Dale Jordan treatment in the home tank & enjoy the whole experience in that super tank of yours right from the outset. I stand to be corrected.

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, I don't know. These are my first discus and I do not want to screw it up. I'm being cautious as this is unknown territory for me. After the deworming treatment and they are doing well I have no issues with adding them to the big tank. One reason for posting this thread was to get all the input I can be successful and not be in the posting in the disease portion of the forum. So far all is going very well.

[discuspaul]

I can't fault you at all, Pat. Your caution is admirable. They're your fish & you need to do exactly what you feel comfortable with.
If I may suggest, do your de-worming in QT tank if you must, but just for as long as it takes to measure results, if any, which I'm sure is nowhere near as long as the 'up to 45 days' I believe you were planning for that quarantine. No need to punish yourself any longer by keeping those beauties away from their permanent tank for any unecessary extended period - besides, it would be nice to see pics of them in their great new surroundings sooner than later - LOL.
Seriously, best of luck, will be looking forward to your progress reports.

[sergeyal]

Hi Pat
consider adding some peat , after you accomplish medicament treatment.


Sergey.

[Eddie]

Nice group and love that tank they are going in! Should be an amazing display.

[Second Hand Pat]

I can't fault you at all, Pat. Your caution is admirable. They're your fish & you need to do exactly what you feel comfortable with.
If I may suggest, do your de-worming in QT tank if you must, but just for as long as it takes to measure results, if any, which I'm sure is nowhere near as long as the 'up to 45 days' I believe you were planning for that quarantine. No need to punish yourself any longer by keeping those beauties away from their permanent tank for any unecessary extended period - besides, it would be nice to see pics of them in their great new surroundings sooner than later - LOL.
Seriously, best of luck, will be looking forward to your progress reports.

Thanks Paul, I will. The other reason for quarantine was to get these guys eating really well. I also have some red head tapajos juvies in the home tank and they are eating monsters. Forget to list them in the post above. :)


Hi Pat
consider adding some peat , after you accomplish medicament treatment.

sergeyal, I have some IAL coming and will be adding them to a mesh bag and adding to the sump.

Sergey.


Nice group and love that tank they are going in! Should be an amazing display.

Thanks Eddie, I'm aiming for amazing. We will see how close I get :)

[vera]

Hey Pat , i love yr babes and how u arranged yr display tank , cant wait to see them in their own "house " :)
did they start eating , maybe its a good idea to give them some more time b4 u start any treatment , usualy wilds are QT and de wormed by seller prior shipment

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, Me too. They are eating but not with gusto. I do check with the John, the seller and he treated them for hex but did not deworm them.

I was happy to see that my bacteria bed has caught up. Zero ammonia and nitrites just prior to WC. I spooked them some how during the WC. They are still hurdled in the corner.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tonight I'm seeing a more relaxed group. They are showing no stress bars and they are allowing their feelers to drop down pass their lower fin. I believe I am seeing hints of more blue striations in the upper and lower parts of the body on some of them. The filter completed it's mini-cycle and today both ammonia and nitrites read zero just before the WC. :)

[discuspaul]

If you're seeing a more relaxed group after just a couple days, that probably means you're more relaxed yourself too.
Keep it up, Pat, a few more days and those guys & gals will really start to show off more color & a fully non-reticent personality ! And they'll probably be eating like hogs later in the week.
Can't wait to see them all comfy in their new home tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, could very will be :). So two questions; do adult discus continue to grow as adults and are there external gender differences?

[vera]

Great news Pat ! keep doing what u r doing it works :)
in my experience depending on age they still b growing till abt 3 years old in males and less in fem ,and u want to know the gender ..hmmm..we all do LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, thought that might be the answer. So only time is during a spawn? Guys are pointy and gals are round.

[vera]

+ in odd ways of nature females have longer tubes then males during the spawn :)
u planning to breed them Pat ?

[discuspaul]

This for the trivia mental file:

Recognizing gender difference prior to spawning - April Ross (April's Aquarium - sponsor) has learned a way of "generally" distinguishing them when they reach approx. 4" to 5" - it's not fail-safe apparently, but usually works. Can't recall all the details, but it relates specifically to the size , shape & length of dorsal & other finnage.
PM her if you wish to know, I'm quite sure she'd be happy to share this info with you.
Her knowledge though, may relate only to domestic farm-raised, and not wilds.

[Second Hand Pat]

+ in odd ways of nature females have longer tubes then males during the spawn :)
u planning to breed them Pat ?

Maybe, have to get my feet way wetter than they are now. Currently just curious.


This for the trivia mental file:

Recognizing gender difference prior to spawning - April Ross (April's Aquarium - sponsor) has learned a way of "generally" distinguishing them when they reach approx. 4" to 5" - it's not fail-safe apparently, but usually works. Can't recall all the details, but it relates specifically to the size , shape & length of dorsal & other finnage.
PM her if you wish to know, I'm quite sure she'd be happy to share this info with you.
Her knowledge though, may relate only to domestic farm-raised, and not wilds.

Thanks Paul, might do that.

[Larry Bugg]

Andrew Soh has a method he describes in his 2nd book that he says is about full proof.

[discuspaul]

Re: sexing discus -
Pat, did you notice the recent post by indica09 under General Discus Discussion - asking about how to sex discus ?
Have a peek at the first reply by VSS - he/she has a PARTIAL description of the method April uses, along with some other useful tips.
This is all for the sake of glorifying trivia - LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes, regarding the trailer?

[discuspaul]

Yup, but I believe there's quite a bit more to it than just that.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yup, have to read the book.

These guys are finally eating, woohoo. Here's some of tonights pictures.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1030046.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1030047.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1030048.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1030049.jpg

[Jennie]

Looking good Pat!!!

[William Palumbo]

I agree!...NICE!...Bill

[vera]

Fantastic group Pat !!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jennie, Bill and Vera, They just get better and better.

[2075turner]

Hey there

I have been following your thread and you mention Dale Jordan's deworming method. Can you tell me what that is? I remember seeing it in some thread but I can't remember which one. Your fishies are looking great.

Thanks for posting your progress with them.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks 2075turner, I think the pictures speak for themselves :). On the deworming I would suggest reading this thread (link below). Dale's method is about post 16 or second page. It has also been suggested to me to not use this on domestics. I'm also inquiring about other deworming methods and will be happy to report what I do.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?83604-wilds-compared-to-domestic

[Second Hand Pat]

I feed my BH mix tonight and had several pushy discus. Here's the group. Guess you can tell who was being pushed about.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1040059.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1040057.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1040061.jpg

[Jennie]

I can't wait till the main tank is ready and you get them in and pics up!

[Second Hand Pat]

Me too Jennie, I placed four layers of window screen between the aquarium light and the aquarium to dim the aquarium light when on. It will allow a slow acclimation to brighter light I hope. When they are ok with the current brightness, one layer of screen can be removed to allow acclimation to a slightly brighter light.

[Jennie]

hmmm good idea. I went and bought some colored glass(for stained glass art) and put them under my lights.. blue and red.. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Cool, pretty I bet. Picture?

[Jennie]

no, wouldn't show in pic anyway..but you can see the difference..

[majapaja]

Really nice group!!

[vera]

I love this mr (?)Dominante lol , stop teasing us Pat , we want nice pics u can do it :)

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1040057.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Vera, you no like my pictures??? LOL. They are for you.

[vera]

hahaha , me like it all and want yr fishes mine too LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Be happy to share :)

[Second Hand Pat]

It's been a week today. Yesterday and tonight I am vacuuming up poops. Dark and a bit thick. These guys are starting to eat good but not with a lot of gusto yet. They are eating BH mix, Bill SBH flakes, Ocean Nutrition Formula Two and mysis shrimp. I'm switching to every other day WC of 75%. My nitrates are 2.5 (seems low to me) after 48 hours and all other parameters are stable. I'm happy with the progress and am getting quite addicted to these guys.

[Larry Bugg]

My wilds love freeze dried black worms.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have introduced those a few times but no takers. They also float. Can you soak them a while to get them to sink?

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys look horrible.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-Day7010.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-Day7007.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-Day7011.jpg

[Dave B]

I love how they're always in such a tight formation.

Mine are much more scattered in the tank.

[vera]

Pat , u made my day!! :) yr photogrphy is better and i can see that lovely red on their fins !!

this shot reminded me the classic look my Heckels had when i first introduced FDBW lol

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/Discus-Day7010.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, they stay fairly tight unless they are feeding. Food really brings out the pushy behaviors and they spread out like in post 132.

Vera, just helping you with your discus fix until you fly home. Seems like there is a bit more red in their base body color. I'm doing some pretty serious playing with the camera and only show one out of several shots. I'm getting more critical of my own pictures also.

[vera]

Yes ,please, keep these shots coming Pat

[ZX10R]

I have introduced those a few times but no takers. They also float. Can you soak them a while to get them to sink?

I have tried everything I have read on here to get them to sink and no luck. I stopped feeding them to my fish in my big tank because it has a overflow box on it and they would go down the drain faster then the fish can eat them. So for now the fish in the tank with canister filters get the FDBW and the fish in the big tank get Live Blackworms. Fish are looking good!!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Sean, I will PM Al. Maybe he has an idea.

[wgtaylor]

Wow Pat, those reds are looking awesome :):)
Pictures are worth a thousand words (great pics).:D
Bill

[Dave B]

Are their stripes fading in and out obviously or is it just the angle of the pics and/or flash?

Mine are mostly stripes-on in general, but every once in a while I look over and see more of a solid color. Mine are blues though.

[prat]

I have introduced those a few times but no takers. They also float. Can you soak them a while to get them to sink?

I soak mine in just a tiny amount of tank water. This way the water is quickly absorbed and they dont float while you're trying to soak them. Leave them for a few minutes, squish them up, then most will sink when put in the tank. I always have some that float but all my discus even the fry have become eager surface feeders. Your fish will love them.
Your new fish are lovely! I think I'm starting to like the browns over the greens.

[Second Hand Pat]

Wow Pat, those reds are looking awesome :):)
Pictures are worth a thousand words (great pics).:D
Bill

Thanks Bill, your words mean a lot. For having never done this I am quite happy with how all this is working out.



Are their stripes fading in and out obviously or is it just the angle of the pics and/or flash?

Mine are mostly stripes-on in general, but every once in a while I look over and see more of a solid color. Mine are blues though.

The pictures reflect how these guys really are. I do not see the stress bars except when the subordinate discus are being pushed by the more dominant ones. Two of the pictures in post 132 has a few of the discus showing their stress bars.

[Second Hand Pat]

I soak mine in just a tiny amount of tank water. This way the water is quickly absorbed and they dont float while you're trying to soak them. Leave them for a few minutes, squish them up, then most will sink when put in the tank. I always have some that float but all my discus even the fry have become eager surface feeders. Your fish will love them.
Your new fish are lovely! I think I'm starting to like the browns over the greens.

Thanks prat, I have totally fallen in love with these guys. Sounds like you squeeze the air out of them. I have some floating in RO water now. I will go try that. OK, just got back and made up a new batch. Soaked them in a tiny bit of RO water, stirred and flatten with a plastic spoon and they did indeed have less tendency to float. Poured the mess into flow of the AC 110 and oh..my..gosh. The discus went crazy. By far the best feeding response I have seen yet. prat, you are my hero.

[Discus-n00b]

John hooked you up with some really nice fish, should be proud of those. Hope to watch them color up even more over the next few months!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Matt, yes, John treated me very fine. You have quite the tank and wilds yourself. You should be quite proud of yourself. Hans did you up mighty fine too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Feeding frenzy pictures.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1060027.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1060025.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1060023.jpg

OK, this video is as bad as it gets. They are pushing each other about over the FDBWs.

http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/?action=view&current=P1060018.mp4

[Jennie]

they're getting some nice color to them Pat!!! look great!

[Second Hand Pat]

they're getting some nice color to them Pat!!! look great!

Thanks Jennie, did you check out the awful video?

[vera]

Lovely video Pat , they seem settled nicely even pecking order is there :) did u set the date for deworming ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Vera, I will as soon as the DMSO comes. I pick up the clout tomorrow. Since I know they will eat the FDBW with gusto I'm doing Dale's deworming recipe. I'm also ordered the angel plus for periodic deworming.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have very happy discus. I feed them FDBW tonight and they had a blast. Poured the worms into the flow of the AC 110 and they loved catching the worms in the current. They also colored up quite red while eating and of course chasing each other around.

So do they colored up with emotion?

[Jennie]

I did, looks like you got a bossy one on your hands

[Second Hand Pat]

Actually three.

[BobB]

You don't sound like a second Pat. You sound like a Master of Discus!

[sergeyal]

So do they colored up with emotion?
yes:)

[Second Hand Pat]

You don't sound like a second Pat. You sound like a Master of Discus!

Thanks Bob, this username I used on a reef forum and it was my second time with keeping a reef tank, first time was when wet/dry and MH lighting was just catching on here in the states.

Master of discus, these are my first discus LOL. Long way to go on the learning curve.

[Second Hand Pat]

yes:)

Image the color if/when these guys breed.

[William Palumbo]

Pat, In my limited experience breeding wilds, the F1's rarely look as good as the parents. Crossing sibling/sibling, or sibling/parent, usually yields better results...Bill

[sergeyal]

What are the reasons for such difference?

[William Palumbo]

I have no idea...FAR from being an expert. Also F1's IME are slower growers compared to domestics. Why?...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, In my limited experience breeding wilds, the F1's rarely look as good as the parents. Crossing sibling/sibling, or sibling/parent, usually yields better results...Bill

LOL, I was referring to how red these wilds can be if/when when actually spawning. Regarding F1s not looking as good as their parents seems like we could be missing something either in the environment or in the nutrition. Note that this is pure speculation on my part.

[MarkPulawski]

I think because you have a wide group of genetics here producing a variety of outcomes, much like in the wild the potential for color or not likely is 10% great color, 10% bad and the rest in between. As you get to brightly colored F1's likley the genetic outcome has narrowed significantly with a much higher % of high color and with subsequent generations the % goes up....nothing scientific, just speculation on my part.



Pat, In my limited experience breeding wilds, the F1's rarely look as good as the parents. Crossing sibling/sibling, or sibling/parent, usually yields better results...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

I think because you have a wide group of genetics here producing a variety of outcomes, much like in the wild the potential for color or not likely is 10% great color, 10% bad and the rest in between. As you get to brightly colored F1's likley the genetic outcome has narrowed significantly with a much higher % of high color and with subsequent generations the % goes up....nothing scientific, just speculation on my part.

Actually that make a lot of sense.

[Second Hand Pat]

I did a WC on the home tank this morning and the sump is filthy. It will be a outside kind of job. PITA to get out of the stand but must be done before the reds go in.

[Second Hand Pat]

Interesting behavior as I'm watching these guys eat their morning feeding. Two of the discus are side by side and swatting each other with the tails, fins fully erect and the back parts of the upper/lower fins and the tail are darkish. They do this a couple times and a third fish swim over and joined in. This is the first time I have seem any color in the tail. Pecking order or maybe something else??? :)

[NanDiscus]

Interesting behavior as I'm watching these guys eat their morning feeding. Two of the discus are side by side and swatting each other with the tails, fins fully erect and the back parts of the upper/lower fins and the tail are darkish. They do this a couple times and a third fish swim over and joined in. This is the first time I have seem any color in the tail. Pecking order or maybe something else??? :)

Bitta' both, Pat. My Xingús do the same sometimes and it is always two fish of the same sex swatting, showing off, while the third is the one both want to entice. I've seen both males and females do that. Then when the third one joins in the weaker one of the two retreats and the two fish in the end will most likely be a pair.

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, that's sort of cool, a mix of both. Seems like I'm doing ok with these guys getting these behaviors. :)

Nandi, do you get these behaviors anytime or during feeding sessions?

[NanDiscus]

My fish fully matured in my tanks, came to the very last stages of it in the big tank they're in now and once they were all settled well, they did it anytime. If your fish are already at a matured age and feel comfortable in their new home, they will reveal more and more nuances of their hugely complicated behaviour. If you think you are relatively familiar with the number of different behaviour patterns of domestic fish, then multiply that by ten and that's at least what wilds have in store for you. If you have the time, just sit in the dark room with only the tank lit, stay out of sight for 15-20 minutes and just watch. You can see the communication among them using their stress-bars and after a while you will be able to tell the exact pecking order just by looking at their colours and the shade of black in their bars, even when they are resting still.
The times of feeding are not exactly the best time for the observation of our fish, they are too much in a hype to act normally. In the limited space of an aquarium things tend to get too intense in terms of chasing and fighting and they look more like the real themselves after the last bits of food are gone and maybe even half-digested.
I can't remember how big your tank is, but if you'd really like to enjoy them, you should give them a proper big tank with not a lot of w/c's and not too much current. The smaller the tank, every behaviour gets more intensive and in terms of agression it's not good. They will look ok for a while, but when things get hot you can easily find yourself with a few fish you may need to remove from the rest. With a tank big enough you don't have this kind of problem.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Nandi, the home tank is 100 gallons with a 60x18x24 inch footprint and I do hope it is big enough for each fish to have it's own space and keep the group on an even keel. I notice in the tank they are in now (75 gallon) that they will spread themselves out rather evenly across the length of the tank and come together either as a group or a two or three fish and then spread out again.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's some more pictures to bore you with and I keep forgetting to clean the glass. Me bad.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1090011.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1090009.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1090010.jpg

Also these guys are making me rethink the lighting in the home tank. When I flip the lighting fixture over and even with four layers of window screens this is what they do.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1090015.jpg

[scottthomas]

Beautiful fish you have. My wife saw me looking at these pictures of wilds and said "why dont you get some discus like those?" So, thanks for sharing and giving my wife the idea that I should get some wilds. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Scott, Happy to help you out :)

[Second Hand Pat]

I have tried everything I have read on here to get them to sink and no luck. I stopped feeding them to my fish in my big tank because it has a overflow box on it and they would go down the drain faster then the fish can eat them. So for now the fish in the tank with canister filters get the FDBW and the fish in the big tank get Live Blackworms. Fish are looking good!!!!

Sean, Here's what Al suggested for sinking FDBWs.

... If you want them to sink can soak in water and freeze in cubes. I usually just throw them in the tank in the filters outflow and the get pushed down.

I soak mine for a few mins and push air out with the back side of a spoon and then pour the worms into the flow of my AC 110 filter which is at one end of the tank. I have a small power head at the other end which pushes the floating worms back to the flow of the filter which pushes the worm back into the water column. The reds seem to really like to catch them. They will catch worms for an hour or more.

You could also use a feeding cone.

[ZX10R]

Sean, Here's what Al suggested for sinking FDBWs.

... If you want them to sink can soak in water and freeze in cubes. You could also use a feeding cone.

K so you got me I haven't tried freezing them yet. I bought 4 feeding cones and only tried using one and I didn't like them. Plus my fish just stared at them looking confused I haven't even opened the other 3.

[Second Hand Pat]

More boring pictures. Of the six fish, four have red eyes and two amber eyes.

First picture are the two with amber eyes.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1100028.jpg

This one is smaller then the others but sticks up for itself.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1100027.jpg

This fish is a bit smaller than the others and gets picked on quite a bit. Low man on the totem pole. Showing its stress bars a little.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1100039.jpg

This guy are showing red in his fins. This guy can be a bit shy.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1100041.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

So I did a tank wipedown with a scrapper last night on the QT with doing a WC. I had a paper towel rubber banded to the scrapper. The reds huddled around the DW while all this was going. After the WC I feed FDBW and they ate but were a little shy. This morning after lights on they were huddled around the DW. They normally are waiting on the corner closest to the door for breakfast in the mornings.

Will wilds adjust to doing normal tank maintainance tasks? When I introduce something into the tank I introduce slowly allowing them to leave so I do not spook them. Should I continue what I'm doing using slow, consistent movements?

[wgtaylor]

Will wilds adjust to doing normal tank maintainance tasks? When I introduce something into the tank I introduce slowly allowing them to leave so I do not spook them. Should I continue what I'm doing using slow, consistent movements?
Hey Pat
I treat mine no different than domestics until breeding. They get used to anything I would normally do and even become more tolerant than domestics. I normally move slow around all my discus, I'm old.:D If they don't get startled they do become pretty tame.
Your pics are awesome.:):)
Bill

[sergeyal]

they will reveal more and more nuances of their hugely complicated behaviour.
agree with you on that ,it seems that they have some sort of "language" and a complex social relations

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Bill, I'm slowly figuring out the camera. Good to know that slow and steady wins the confidence of these guys.

I have spend a fair amount of time observing these guys. Every movement means something. A movement towards another fish is "get out of the way". Two fish going head to head with one actively pushing and the other with it's head pointed towards the bottom is "ok, I submit". I have seem fish being pecked on by more than one fish seems to get fed up and pushes everyone else and leaves the area. Lots of similarities between these fish and horses. Pecking order behavours are very similar especially with the use of personal space. Expression of emotions are quite different, eyes and ears vs fins and coloration. OK, I will quit rambling.

[sergeyal]

eyes and ears vs fins and coloration.
how do horses express feeling with the eyes?
discus change the color of their eyes and have some types of "staring" .

[Second Hand Pat]

Horses have soft, hard, alert and scared eyes...ie. soft eyes when the horse is comforable, relaxed and/or thinking, hard when angry etc. Ears and body expression is important too.

How do discus change the color of their eyes, changing the intensity of the base color? or actually change the color?

[sergeyal]

changing the intensity of the base color? or actually change the color?
I guess it is only the intensity of the base colour being changed ,from yellowish thru orange to ruby red.
also i've noticed that there are differences in pupil size between different fish

[Second Hand Pat]

Sergeyal, I will watch for that. Does the intensity of the color change with emotion? Does the pupil size change also (in the same fish)?

On a side note, my DMSO will arrive on the 18th. Only three weeks from time I ordered it. :(

[sergeyal]

Does the intensity of the color change with emotion? Does the pupil size change also (in the same fish)?
yes ,for example when two angry fishes stand in front of each other their eyes become fire red.
i will watch for pupil size in same fishes.

i've received Australian dry black worms today , hope my discus will love them:p

[Second Hand Pat]

Mine really like them. I soak mine in water, push air out with the back side of a spoon and put them in the flow of the filter to push the worms into the water column.

[vera]

Well done Pat! , u are becoming an expert in wilds , its very interesting that u find similarities in fish and animals behaviour , very interesting subjects and observations indeed

[Dave B]

Also these guys are making me rethink the lighting in the home tank. When I flip the lighting fixture over and even with four layers of window screens this is what they do.



Keep us posted on what you do, and please experiment.

FWIW, I have 2x40w over my 120 and their behavior does not appear affected by it at all, nor do they hide from it or get startled when the lights come on. I used the screen trick and they didn't ever seem to care so it was a quick transition.

I want to have less light, but if I remove one bulb the other doesn't run at full power and is unnoticeable. I also have a 20w bulb that I'd really like to use - ideally I'd have a rotation set up so that it's just the 20w for large parts of the day and 60 total maximum, but for now I'm stuck with 80... which really still isn't a lot, but is more than I need. But I've been having the damndest time finding T8 fixtures that hold a single bulb or are 24" long... everywhere near me just has 48" doubles. It's annoying. Home Depot used to stock 24" fixtures for like 3 bucks.

Anyway, with all that said, their behavior is fine but mine have omnipresent stress bars, which is a huge difference from yours, from what I can tell. Only my dominant high body brown is stripe-free. Unless they're stressed out by the presence of my orangeheads down below them, I can only assume this is a result of the brighter light. I would be interested in knowing if yours got stripier if you upped the light over your tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, you could use the single light strips like this

http://www.petco.com/product/107313/Aqueon-Fluorescent-Single-Tube-Strip-Light.aspx

if you want less light. Also your guys could be showing their stress bars for other reasons. I want you to check your GH. I am using Dale Jordan's guideline of a target GH of 120-150 which for me is 20% RO/80% tap or 8 drops with the API kit which is 143.2 ppm. Dale's sweet spot GH is about 70.

With my guys's, here's my current lighting situation. This light is turned upside down and the reds are quite happy with that.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1110022.jpg

If I turn the light over with 4 layers of window screen, they do this.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1090015.jpg

Quite the difference. I can not leave them like that, I feel like I am locking them in jail. I will try it this coming weekend for a couple hours and let you know how they react.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well done Pat! , u are becoming an expert in wilds , its very interesting that u find similarities in fish and animals behaviour , very interesting subjects and observations indeed

Thanks Vera, I feel like I still have a lot of ground to cover :).

[Dave B]

My water falls within that sweet spot. IIRC, yours is a touch harder than mine, isn't it? (based on our conversation in November) What confuses me is that there are plenty of shade spots since I have thick fake plants up on top of the tank. If anything, the bars show more when they're under there. They're certainly not afraid of the light, though. They don't even flinch when it comes on.

I'm not going to spend $33 on a fixture that does the same thing as one I can get for $5. My tank has a canopy so I don't need one that looks nice. What sucks is that I had two of them before but threw them out when I got compact fluorescent fixtures... which I now hate and want to get rid of. Now Home Depot only has T5 fixtures instead of T8. I'm sure I can just order them from any number of places online.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes, my water is much harder. I have some indian almond leaves on order which I will be adding to the sump to help soften the water. Maybe it is not the light, maybe it's your orangeheads. BTW I have some redheads from Al and they are very active. How many discus do you have in your 120. Maybe there's not enough personal space for each discus to be comfortable.

Read post #182 by NanDiscus. Something to think about.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, lighting plan.

I have a Wavepoint T5 48 in over the home tank now. Last night I replaced the marine lamps with a pink and a 6500K lamp. The pink lamp is set to the rear of the tank and the 6500K to the front. I have 108 watts total which at this point is way to bright for these reds. So my plan is to move the plants to the front and far ends of the tanks which will allow me to darken the entire back and middle of the tank and leave the ends with enough light for the plants. Purpose of the plants is to disguse the spillways. I'm finding that the window screen layers provides a great way of dimming the light and I can remove layers as the reds adjust (assuming they will). See any flaws with this?

[Dave B]

The designer in me says that the look of having the light sources on the edges for the plants won't be as nice as the look of having a central source with shade on the edges... but function has to come before form.

The window screen is a brilliant idea that you should use to its fullest capability. From that standpoint, I think you're right on.

[Second Hand Pat]

Trick is to create an allusion of shore near the front of the tank and deeper water towards the rear of the tank. Imagine the sand deepest in front of the tank and thin in the rear of the tank. From the viewers aspect the water appears to get deeper as the eye is drawn towards the back of the tank.

I wonder if I could make that work.

[Dave B]

I'd be impressed. That's the kind of thing I'd think you'd need a real monster tank to pull off.

[Second Hand Pat]

I'd be impressed. That's the kind of thing I'd think you'd need a real monster tank to pull off.

I would be impressed too. I do not think the tank has the depth.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tonights pictures.

Individual shots
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120035.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120036.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120040.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120052.jpg

Couple of group shots
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120049.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120043.jpg

[vera]

I can see full bellies :D did they catch up with feeding now ?it seem didnt take them long to settle and show these amazing rich honey color and red fins , any special food u feed them Pat?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, it's nice to see full bellies on these guys. I have been increasing the amounts I feed. Yesterday they got a teaspoon mix of ON forumla one/mysis shrimp in the morning, afternoon a teaspoon of BH mix and two hours before lights out roughly a teaspoon of FDBWs. This morning they got SBH flake. I have some vegetable based flake I need to put from the freezer and try.

The other night I gave them a special treat of live marine shrimp. It was fun watching the discus try and catch them. Later I went to remove any leftover shrimp and I could not find any. Manner of fact these guys do not leave any food. :)

Anyone have any pellet suggestions? That is one food I do not have.

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys continue to do well, a bit shy but not overly so.

A few questions for some of you more experienced wilds keeper. First any sinking pellet suggestions? Also is there any way to determine the age of a wild discus. Last what is your WC schedule, how often and % changed. I know, many answers to this one. I am currently doing a 60% WC every other day. My highest nitrates have been 5 ppm.

[William Palumbo]

No way of knowing the age, at least not by just us looking at them. I feed TetraBits. Your waterchanges sound good to me...Bill

[jimg]

I feed bh, sera bits, angels plus garlic flake and couple different flakes. wc I do about 40% every few days with 8 in a 90 and 30-70% every other day with 2 in a 30. I think you doing fine too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks guys, I figured you would not be able to determine the age unless they were sub-adults but can't hurt to ask. Sounds like my WC are inline with you guys :)


I feed bh, sera bits, angels plus garlic flake and couple different flakes. wc I do about 40% every few days with 8 in a 90 and 30-70% every other day with 2 in a 30. I think you doing fine too.

Jim, would you suggest the angels plus garlic flake on top of BH with garlic?

[jimg]

I put 3 sections of fresh garlic to about 1.5lbs of bh. I feed bh 1x in the am then the other feedings are whatever container I grab. So I usually try to feed different things all the time. they may only get the garlic flake 1 -3 times a week. I never worried about too much garlic.
mrs discus fish might be offended if mr discus eats too much, but not me!

[Second Hand Pat]

LOL Jim...hubby would agree, can never have too much garlic...or tabasco sauce.

Finally received all the deworming products and sent a confirmation email to Dale ensuring proper units and black worm subs. So could be go for Sunday afternoon.

[jimg]

LOL Jim...hubby would agree, can never have too much garlic...or tabasco sauce.

Finally received all the deworming products and sent a confirmation email to Dale ensuring proper units and black worm subs. So could be go for Sunday afternoon.

Hope all goes good!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jim, I am going against Dale's recommendation regarding live black worms. I going to try freeze dried black worms instead. Only thing left is seeing if I can measure CCs.

[Jennie]

Pat, go to petsmart and pick up syringes or a feed store would carry them to draw from dog/cat dewormer bottles

[Second Hand Pat]

Good thinking. Have a syringe for sucking up brine shrimp. Thanks.

[Jennie]

lol! you think to hard!

[Second Hand Pat]

I know :) KISS is better.

[Jennie]

:)

[Second Hand Pat]

Another thing, would you guys recommend removing the DW while treating? Or could follow directions on the bottle, all of them.

[Second Hand Pat]

Couldn't resist more pictures.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1160001.jpg

Pushing picture, fish on the left is pushing the fish in the upper right.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1160009.jpg

See Dave, they do show their stress bars.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1160013.jpg

This is one of the shyer ones.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1160014.jpg

[Jennie]

they look better and better Pat

[vera]

he looks like the one from my avatar ! :)
nice shots Pat

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1160014.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

they look better and better Pat

Thanks Jennie, they have been showing lots of color lately.

[Second Hand Pat]

he looks like the one from my avatar ! :)


Thanks Vera, not this one. Your avatar has a red eye.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's yours.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1120040.jpg

[vera]

Just noticed that :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Did the first installment of Dale's deworming tonight. Nice, pretty green tank. So far, so good. Glad I took pictures this morning. LOL.

[vera]

Good luck Pat , hope all goes well
what do u use as dewormer ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck Pat , hope all goes well
what do u use as dewormer ?

Hey Vera, I used Dale Jordan deworming formula below. I did verify with him that his units were teaspoon vs tablespoon and asked about using FDBW vs live blackworms. His reason for using live worms with the DMSO is so the worms absord the Prazi, Metro and Flub mix and when the fish eat the worms the mix is deliveried to the fish's gut. I used FDBW vs the live worms. Note that Dale could not recommend using the FDBW as he did not know whether the FDBWs could absord the meds.

The reds looked totally gorgeous this morning and ate well so all good is far.



Oh boy.....long one :-)

Well, I usually wait three or four days to make sure I don't have to deal with any 'shipping" issues ( bacterial etc ) Then I start as follows:

- turn temp to 90 F
-1 tablet clout per 10 gals of water
- In a small dish I add, 1/8 tsp Prazi, 1/8stp Metro and 1/8 flub. and dilute with 4-5 CC's of DMSO
- in that mixed solution , I put one GOOD feeding of live blackworms and let them sit until the worms stop struggling ( about 5 minutes...because of the Prazi )
- I'll dump that entire mixture into the tank and let sit for 48hrs after which I do a large water change
I will REPEAT the same thing approx 6 days AFTER the water change and let sit for another 48hrs
-do water change
-all good :-)

The DMSO is a caring agent and will guarantee the meds are absorbed into the fishes system ( even if they do not eat the impregnated Blackworms )

I've used the above mix for tanks from 30-75 gals. I would increase slightly for larger tanks :-)

Hope this helps guys !!

[vera]

thank u Pat
thats Mega mix!! im gonna safe this formula might need it one day,
DMSO ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Vera, here you go.

http://www.herbalremedies.com/dmsodim8floz.html?utm_source=nex&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=product&zmam=1000941&zmas=32&zmac=189&zmap=195492

[snookn21]

These guys are beautiful Pat.

I enjoy seeing them every time you update pics!

I have 2 more tanks of these guys still. $60.00 ea is a great price for these Nhamunda Reds.

Also we have golden and red eye.

Keep up with the good pictures Pat.

Thanks,
John

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks John for posting. I know you are going through some rough times. Holler once you are back in the saddle and we will talk.

[Second Hand Pat]

Angry tank tonight, lots of pushing, chasing and lots and lots of color with all the emotion. Tank is cranked to 90 for the deworming treatment and it must make these guys hungry.

[Second Hand Pat]

Some of these guys were showing some nice color.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1170041.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1170046.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1170052.jpg

Group shot
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1170061.jpg

[snookn21]

Pat they were pushing each other around alot in our holding tanks. I feel you will get some breeders out of this batch. Time is everything!

I wish I could snap some pictures of ours like you snap of yours :)

Ours are still a little camera shy.

Keep up the good updates, I appreciate following our wilds!

Thanks,
John

[Second Hand Pat]

John, I may have a pending pair. There are two which hang together and seem to sort of defend a spot in the tank. These two seem to push the other four to the right side of the tank. I have seen no breeding behavior per say only that they do not seem to push each other like they push the other four. So we will see.

I finally figured out my camera to get decent pictures but it takes time, about 45 min to an hour. But I do get to observe a lot and that is fun.

[Dave B]

You are making me feel inferior. Yours have no bars at all, great color, and now you might have a pair? Damn...

Mine all behave nicely but only the browns are consistently bar-free.

I still like the striations on mine though :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, my guys do show bars when they are in the pecking order frenzy at feeding time. We will see about the pair thing, I may be getting ahead of myself on that one.

I really like the striations on yours also. Which blues did you get with the browns?

[vera]

You are making me feel inferior. Yours have no bars at all, great color, and now you might have a pair? Damn...



lol , im sure there are quite a few pairs :)
Pat , they r so beautiful i cant wait to see them in their new home !
howz treatment going

[MostlyDiscus]

Handle DMSO with care. If you get it on your skin your skin will absorb and meds you are using. Please read the flubendazole thread very carefully. If added to water instead of feeding heading may result. Ed

[MostlyDiscus]

Something about wild reds that are just AWESOME.