How much water changing?

[Mac]

I don't think I'm a "beginner" (I've succeeded in spawning and raising fry a few times), but I can't find a straight-forward answer in these forums to this basic Q: HOW MUCH WATER SHOULD WE BE CHANGING?

I see one expert here who says she does 25-50 percent daily. OMG. I do about 25 percent twice a week, using a python, in a planted tank. I've had ups and downs over a few decades, but right now the discus look fine, the water's clean, and the plants are coming back (after they died back because I had to dose a snail infestation). I'm usually tempted to leave well enough alone, but . . . would everything be even better (water clarity, spawning, plant growth) if I were more diligent? I've recently retired, and I could spend more time on this -- within reason.

Are there differences of opinion on this?

Thanks

[John_Nicholson]

LOL...you have to watch out for the experts. Most people will change 50% per day on a bare bottom tank when raising the fish. How much you change after they are grown depends on your setup and what you are feeding. As long as you are keeping the water clean you should have good results.

-john

[Greenheinie]

Get ready to hear everything from 50% a week to 90% a day. I have a planted tank and actually enjoy changing the water...50% on Saturday, 50% on Sunday, 25% on Tuesday, 25% on Thursday. When I had adults in the tank, I only did a 50% change on Sundays. Now with juvies, I'm trying to hook them up a bit more, but unfortunately can't do the 90% daily changes. If I didn't have to work, I'd consider it just to see if you can really grow discus out to mutant proportions by providing daily WC's.

[Northwoods Discus]

The answer is going to depend on your goals and the age of fish that you have. Of course if your growing out juvies it will be up to 100% twice a day. If you have adult grown fish it may be 50% two times a week. BB vs planted. etc etc. Monitoring parameters of your water will tell you if you are doing enough. The look and health of your fish will also tell you. The more you feed the more water changes needed. Stocking rate also will affect the amount. The general feeling here is if it works for you don't change it.
Bill

[discussmith]

If your fish are spawning and the fry doing well than you are doing things fine. As already said if you change feed or fish load or such, than adjustments may be needed, but again the true test is the fish themselves and not how others may be doing it. These things are guidelines and advice not gospel.

[DonMD]

Hey Mac,

There is so much discussion about changing water in planted tanks, with some people saying that they can go weeks without a change, that really you'll never find a "right" answer. It's really what works for you. If you've managed to raise fry, then I think you probably know what you're doing. I'd be interested in knowing if you raised fry in a planted tank.

Here in Fairfax, I change about an average of 20 to 30% daily in my two discus tanks, both not planted. I just enjoy coming home from work and taking care of the fish.

[ericatdallas]

I wish someone would do an objective controlled study on WCs and if there is any difference in growth. I have yet to read one. I would love to be that guy to do it but can't afford the square footage for more tanks.

[crooow]

I wish someone would do an objective controlled study on WCs and if there is any difference in growth. I have yet to read one. I would love to be that guy to do it but can't afford the square footage for more tanks.

I agree. I'm an experimental psychologist, and I spend my day designing experiments. I've always wanted to keep discus (which has led me to this great site), and I was wondering if anyone had actually done a controlled experiment? i.e. Taking two sets of discus from the same breeder, put them in two tanks next to each other, and vary the water change schedule. Seems like it'd be pretty easy to do.

[ericatdallas]

I agree. I'm an experimental psychologist, and I spend my day designing experiments. I've always wanted to keep discus (which has led me to this great site), and I was wondering if anyone had actually done a controlled experiment? i.e. Taking two sets of discus from the same breeder, put them in two tanks next to each other, and vary the water change schedule. Seems like it'd be pretty easy to do.

We should design one and maybe someone will take it on. I can do the DOE and analysis on it...

Hmm....

[kaceyo]

It was done long ago by Jack Wattley and the answer is...Yes, more wc's equals faster growth. I've proved it to myself too, as have many others here.

[Keith Perkins]

It was done long ago by Jack Wattley and the answer is...Yes, more wc's equals faster growth. I've proved it to myself too, as have many others here.

+1, it's talked about in his book Handbook of Discus.

[jimg]

It was done long ago by Jack Wattley and the answer is...Yes, more wc's equals faster growth. I've proved it to myself too, as have many others here.

Ditto!!

[crooow]

So Wattley did a controlled comparison? That's interesting. Does he talk about what he did in detail in the Handbook?

[William Palumbo]

Jimg...clean your inbox out...Bill

[jimg]

Jimg...clean your inbox out...Bill

It's mostly empty!

[jawfish]

This one was done a while back.
http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Experiment.htm

I wish that he would have gone further, also I would I have like more research why the tank only getting weekly water change develop an aversion to beef heart. Also the tanks had a low stocking density to start with so the results might not be conclusive.

Water Change are a function of feeding, stocking density and growing period. Putting numbers in a table is something that would help us all. Yes I understand that we all have our discus recipe.

Right now I'm growing 10 2.5-3 inch discus in a 45 gallon tank with daily 30% change and a weekly 70% water change. Next month they are going into a 65 gallon tank with the same % of water changes.

Cheers,

Fred

[ericatdallas]

It was done long ago by Jack Wattley and the answer is...Yes, more wc's equals faster growth. I've proved it to myself too, as have many others here.

I addressed some experimental flaws in another thread. I didn't read the experiment first hand, but didn't he use two different sized aquariums. Based on the summary of the study I think he confounded some factors.

I'll try and get a copy of the book before I criticize any further though.

[ericatdallas]

This one was done a while back.
http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Experiment.htm

I wish that he would have gone further, also I would I have like more research why the tank only getting weekly water change develop an aversion to beef heart. Also the tanks had a low stocking density to start with so the results might not be conclusive.

Water Change are a function of feeding, stocking density and growing period. Putting numbers in a table is something that would help us all. Yes I understand that we all have our discus recipe.

Right now I'm growing 10 2.5-3 inch discus in a 45 gallon tank with daily 30% change and a weekly 70% water change. Next month they are going into a 65 gallon tank with the same % of water changes.

Cheers,

Fred

The issue I have is that he only takes the 'best' fish. Maybe WC have a higher yield for quality discus?

I'm not experienced enough, but digging through the internet forum archives, I get the feeling that WC don't matter as much as people make it out to be so long as the tank is clean. I really think it's the feeding regimen. People with BB tanks are better able to estimate the amount of food to give their discus (easily spot when all food is eaten and when food is left). Also, discus have an easier time finding food.

Which is another thing I noted about the Wattley experiment. Perhaps it wasn't the increased water changes, but the ability for the fish to find their food more easily.

[roclement]

LOL...you have to watch out for the experts. Most people will change 50% per day on a bare bottom tank when raising the fish. How much you change after they are grown depends on your setup and what you are feeding. As long as you are keeping the water clean you should have good results.

-john

AMEM John! To this I will only add, watch your fish more than your water! If they are healthy and breeding; growing to your satisfaction, then you are good!

Rodrigo

[jawfish]

Hey Eric I agree...

You point out one flaw in the experiment... also On my end it creates more question than answers...

Rodrigo you hit the nail on the head... We need to watch our fish, they can tell us more than we think by their behaviour... plus isn't the reason why we get discus in the first hand !!!

Cheers,

Fred

[ericatdallas]

Which Wattley book was the WC experiment presented in?

[Keith Perkins]

Which Wattley book was the WC experiment presented in?


+1, it's talked about in his book Handbook of Discus.

Handbook of Discus

[ericatdallas]

Handbook of Discus

Okay, I bought it, I can't find the part about the water changes. I went through the water chemistry section... Did you reference the wrong book?

[JustinJDH401]

I just signed up today and also bought my first discus. I have 6 blue turquoise x pigeon blood all under 1 inch born on 2/21/11 in a 55 gallon. The breeder told me i should do about a 30% water chang every 2 to 3 days.

[ericatdallas]

I just signed up today and also bought my first discus. I have 6 blue turquoise x pigeon blood all under 1 inch born on 2/21/11 in a 55 gallon. The breeder told me i should do about a 30% water chang every 2 to 3 days.

Turqs x Pbs? Really not a good cross to have... also, if you want maximum growth, you want to do lots of feedings which means > 50% WC per day.

[Eddie]

I just signed up today and also bought my first discus. I have 6 blue turquoise x pigeon blood all under 1 inch born on 2/21/11 in a 55 gallon. The breeder told me i should do about a 30% water chang every 2 to 3 days.

Great to meet you Justin and welcome! Glad to hear you got some discus, very small though, considered fry still IMO. I think a 55 gallon is a bit overwhelming for such a small group at that size. Do you have have a 20 or 30 around to grow them out a bit first?

Also, hows your water hardness? Specifically your GH.

Eddie

[kaceyo]

Welcome to Simply. I agree with Eric and Eddie. Discus juvies need alot more food than other similar sized fish to grow properly and that means more water changes.
And a 20g or 30g tank would be much better for growout at that size and number of fish.

[Keith Perkins]

Okay, I bought it, I can't find the part about the water changes. I went through the water chemistry section... Did you reference the wrong book?

Hmm, I think it's the only Wattley discus book I own so I don't think so. I'll have a look for it.

[JustinJDH401]

I took Eric's advice on the daily 50% water change. I don't have a smaller tank at this time to grow them out and they seem to be doing well so far. And why aren't blue turquoise x pigeon bloods not a good cross to have?

And thank you Eric, Kacey and Eddie. You are the first to talk to me here so far.

Justin

[roundfishross]

PIGEON X NON PIGEON TYPICALLY = HEAVILLY PEPPERED DISCUS( NOT TO EASY ON THE EYES!)

[JustinJDH401]

They are very peppery but i still like them. It just started to show over the past few days.