Heat the room vs heat the tank, which is cheaper/better?

[aholley]

Thinking about switching from heating the tanks to just heating the room.

What is everyone opinion/thoughts?

I currently have the fish in the basement, two 75g tanks with two 200 watt heaters in each tank, and will double tanks (hopefully) within a month. The room is about 20' by 20' old house with cement block walls (all four).

I have enough styrofoam to cover the walls and ceiling and thinking I could then buy a medium electric heater for the room.

Here is my thought/questions/concerns:
1) Cost, which is cheaper

2) The outside of the foundation has foam and the walls aren't that cold to touch, but the floor is, would heating the room even work? How much is the heater going to run?

3) I keep 150 gallons of water aging for w/c, if this water is coming in from the faucet at about 39 degrees will it warm enough in 24 hours or am I going to have to supplement the heat?

I realize there probably arent exact answers to these questions, just looking for input.

Thanks

[Teh]

I would say if you find a way to heat the room cheaper then go with it because there are so many threads about heater not working properly break. I was Discus Hans and none of his tank has heater because he is heating his whole warehouse and let me tell you it is HOT inside. I was sweating.

[DiscusOnly]

Just calculate how much it cost to set up the heated room correctly compared to the cost of using individual heaters. It's not cheap to insulated and heat the room properly and you will need to take care of the extra humidity caused by the 85 degree room. With the amount of tanks you have so far, I'll say it's better just to use foam to insulate the tank instead of the room.

Van

[TURQ64]

I heated my 'room' for several decades, but now the high heat costs prohibit it as a total answer. That said, when the room was heated, it had to really be uncomfortable to keep tanks warm enough for Discus. Now I have heaters in-tank, and can't afford the electric bill...quite the conundrum, methinks...I'm changing sumps this week, and maybe a re-do will shave some cost off the operation. This topic is sooo subjective to where you live, and how expensive your utilities are...Gary

[Chad Hughes]

I heat the room.

Now, keep in mind I live in San Diego and our winter typically has a chilly average of about 50 degrees. I don't have the bone chiling temps to worry about.

You're going to have to sit down and calculate how much your electrical costs will be. This is hard to do with in tank heaters because you have no clue how often they cycle or how long they stay on. If you can, compare pre and post electric bills to give you an idea of what the added electrical cost is.

In my area, electricity is EXPENSIVE! Gas is cheap. The choice for me was easy. Heating the room would be cheaper on two fronts.

Initial investment was low. A simple natural gas room heater is about $100~150. I have 26 individual tanks to heat PLUS 550 gallons of starge water AND two 150 gallon sumps. To put heaters in all of these tanks would cost about $1000.

On the utility front, it only costs me about $60 a month in natural gas to run the fish house AND the entire house (stove, dryer, hot water tank). I can deal with that.

I heat the room to about 90 degrees. This puts the tanks at about 84 to 86 degrees depending on outside temp. Yes, the room is warm to work in but nothing a few strategically placed fans and a pair of shorts can't fix. :D I have circulation fans in the room that keep the air mixing and also create a breeze. This breeze makes a HUGE difference to the humans in the room.

Hope that helps! Good luck.

[DerekFF]

No matter how you look at it, if you live within city limits and have a natural gas line to your house....use gas. Itll beat the cost of electricity hands down 365 days a year.

[Jhhnn]

No matter how you look at it, if you live within city limits and have a natural gas line to your house....use gas. Itll beat the cost of electricity hands down 365 days a year.

Absolutely true. You'll lose money heating the whole room vs heating just the tanks if you use electricity either way. I'd suggest starting by insulating the tanks on as many surfaces as is practical, and getting the lids tight. huge amounts of heat go right out the top otherwise. Some contributors here cover their tanks with reflectix at night, too.

If I had a full open basement fish room, I'd use a pump, zone valve and heat exchanger to heat a central sump from the natural gas water heater... heat the makeup water barrels the same way, too... just a sufficiently large coil of stainless steel tubing in any container will do the job...

[DerekFF]

I suppose the exception would be if you have solar panels on your house.......then electricity MIGHT and a big MIGHT be cheaper, but again youll need to spend in the 5-10,000 range for panels enough to be worth your while

[Chad Hughes]

I can't say that I agree.

I have two solar arrays that produce 5,000 watts per hour and I still avoid using anything that uses electricity. The reason I do this is because I want my arrays to supplement as close to 100% of my electrical usage as possible. Unless your array already produces more than 100% of what you use, you'll be back in to a good size electric bill soon. In San Diego we actualy receive payment for electricity that we make and do not use. That being said, if you cut electrical use back to the point that you are receiving money back, it's possible that your solar array could actually pay your gas bill on a monthly basis. Zero $$ for gas and electric monthly? I love it.


I suppose the exception would be if you have solar panels on your house.......then electricity MIGHT and a big MIGHT be cheaper

[ericatdallas]

1) Cost, which is cheaper


For the number of tank you have, I would almost guarantee you that heating your tanks alone is cheaper. I don't know what the cost of electricity in your area is or even the ambient temperature, but think of it this way.

With the aquarium you heat it directly and you have heat loss to the room. With heating the room, you have to provide enough heat to bring the temperature of the aquarium up to 80+F (for tropical fish, more for discus) as well as the ambient temperature. So you have to heat more volume. Anytime you heat a greater volume, you're going to need more energy.

As already stated. If you are using strictly electricity then no matter what, the energy requirements will ALWAYS be more to heat a room (on a per watt basis).

If you factor in gas, it depends on the cost of gas compared to electricity.




2) The outside of the foundation has foam and the walls aren't that cold to touch, but the floor is, would heating the room even work? How much is the heater going to run?



Mileage varies by electricity cost but I keep a 1400W space heater running on full during the coldest nights in my daughter's room and based on my electricity costs I estimate about $3/day (if it ran continuously at the highest setting). My daughter's room is about 100sq ft. A 400W aquarium heater running max setting 24/7 would be less than a $1/day.




3) I keep 150 gallons of water aging for w/c, if this water is coming in from the faucet at about 39 degrees will it warm enough in 24 hours or am I going to have to supplement the heat?



39 degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius? If it's coming out at 100F (about 39C) then it will likely cool down in time.

[Jhhnn]

Insulating the walls will help keep down heating costs for the house, anyway, and is probably a good idea. Insulating the tanks makes a large difference, honest. One way to find out for sure is to buy an inexpensive Kill-a-Watt meter. They can be used to measure the electricity usage for anything with a plug, and can help pinpoint high usage items. Like this-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001&cm_re=kill_a_watt_p3-_-82-715-001-_-Product

Measure the electricity usage before and after insulating the tank, closing up big gaps in the lids.

You'll want to put styro under the aging barrel, for sure, to insulate if from the floor, and wrapping it all around with something is a good idea, too, because you'll want to suspend a heater in it so that makeup water temp is always close to tank temp... If you're handy at all, make up a switch box with a 3 position toggle sw to turn off the heater whenever turning on the pump to fill tanks... heat-off-pump. The bigger the heater, the faster it'll bring cold water up to temp. I fill my barrels with warm water, figuring that it's cheaper to heat it with gas than with electricity, just hold it at temp with suspended heaters... put an airstone in the aging barrel, too...

[richgrenfell]

Insulating the walls will help keep down heating costs for the house, anyway, and is probably a good idea. Insulating the tanks makes a large difference, honest. One way to find out for sure is to buy an inexpensive Kill-a-Watt meter. They can be used to measure the electricity usage for anything with a plug, and can help pinpoint high usage items. Like this-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001&cm_re=kill_a_watt_p3-_-82-715-001-_-Product

Measure the electricity usage before and after insulating the tank, closing up big gaps in the lids.

You'll want to put styro under the aging barrel, for sure, to insulate if from the floor, and wrapping it all around with something is a good idea, too, because you'll want to suspend a heater in it so that makeup water temp is always close to tank temp... If you're handy at all, make up a switch box with a 3 position toggle sw to turn off the heater whenever turning on the pump to fill tanks... heat-off-pump. The bigger the heater, the faster it'll bring cold water up to temp. I fill my barrels with warm water, figuring that it's cheaper to heat it with gas than with electricity, just hold it at temp with suspended heaters... put an airstone in the aging barrel, too...

Thanks very much for the link. I am in the planning stages for my fishroom, and am thinking about heat and electricity first. This item will be a great deal of help!

Rich

[Jhhnn]

Thanks very much for the link. I am in the planning stages for my fishroom, and am thinking about heat and electricity first. This item will be a great deal of help!

Rich

It's a handy tool, for a lot of things. For example, it seemed like our new freezer was running a lot, so I measured the power consumption with the Kill-a-Watt. Power consumption was way higher than it should have been. I checked the temp inside with a spiffy wide range digital thermo I then obtained from Thomas Scientific- It was -20F, way colder than it needs to be. After adjusting the freezer to hold temps between 0 & -5F, the Kill-a-Watt showed radically reduced power consumption... I got my money back for the Kill-a-watt and the thermometer in just a few months...

[DerekFF]

I can't say that I agree.

I have two solar arrays that produce 5,000 watts per hour and I still avoid using anything that uses electricity. The reason I do this is because I want my arrays to supplement as close to 100% of my electrical usage as possible. Unless your array already produces more than 100% of what you use, you'll be back in to a good size electric bill soon. In San Diego we actualy receive payment for electricity that we make and do not use. That being said, if you cut electrical use back to the point that you are receiving money back, it's possible that your solar array could actually pay your gas bill on a monthly basis. Zero $$ for gas and electric monthly? I love it.

Hey Chad. You are in SD so you tend to get more sun than probly 75% of the rest of us lol. How much did your solar panels cost you to install? i know here in central cali PG&E will give you a credit but not cash for any extra electricity sold back to them. So you can NEVER actually come out ahead on money, but in the winter months when theres no sun you can have a $0 electric bill if you banked enough credit over the summer months. But if you run AC/fans/lights/tanks then your summer months will not produce excess energy unless you really invest in some panels. Of course panels are a whole different discussion with direction of facing, angles, type and where you live all effect what youll get out of them. Also in SD the climate is no nice most of the time heaters for the most part arent needed probably 30-40% of the year lol. Your place is ideal for panels

[Chad Hughes]

I agree! SD has to be the most ideal sopt for solar. :D

I have two arrays. They are situated in a manner that cover the suns path over the entire day. I actually begin making power at 0630 and the inverters finally shut down around 1700. That's a pretty good run.

Minus state and federal rebates, the entire system (both arrays) cost about $25,000 out of pocket. I just had the entire back array replaced due to panel delamination about 4 months ago. This array was about 6 years old. All was done under warranty! Both arrays are now brand new.

Best wishes!


Hey Chad. You are in SD so you tend to get more sun than probly 75% of the rest of us lol. How much did your solar panels cost you to install? i know here in central cali PG&E will give you a credit but not cash for any extra electricity sold back to them. So you can NEVER actually come out ahead on money, but in the winter months when theres no sun you can have a $0 electric bill if you banked enough credit over the summer months. But if you run AC/fans/lights/tanks then your summer months will not produce excess energy unless you really invest in some panels. Of course panels are a whole different discussion with direction of facing, angles, type and where you live all effect what youll get out of them. Also in SD the climate is no nice most of the time heaters for the most part arent needed probably 30-40% of the year lol. Your place is ideal for panels

[DerekFF]

Yeah the 25k envestment is where most of us couldnt go lol. We can somewhat deal with the $2-300 electric bill or the cost to make a fish room run off gas to heat the room, but 25,000? Yeah a little rich for my blood for now lol. It will for sure happen one day as solar is a great way to save money. It does pay for itself. Just gotta have the money to drop upfront lol. And the time frame from which your putting out energy till the time it stops is HUGE!! Im sure once you installed it you were gleaming over your electric bill lol.

[ericatdallas]

Yeah the 25k envestment is where most of us couldnt go lol. We can somewhat deal with the $2-300 electric bill or the cost to make a fish room run off gas to heat the room, but 25,000? Yeah a little rich for my blood for now lol. It will for sure happen one day as solar is a great way to save money. It does pay for itself. Just gotta have the money to drop upfront lol. And the time frame from which your putting out energy till the time it stops is HUGE!! Im sure once you installed it you were gleaming over your electric bill lol.

Batteries may have improved some over the years but I used to work with a guy that had a choice of having the electric company run power to his house (he built a house on some remote piece of land) which would cost him $20k or he could spend $30k on solar power and wind power. He opted for the latter for multiple reasons: 1) Help environment 2) No more electric bills 3) self-reliant, doesn't have to depend on power company.

Well, after 3 years he had to replace his batteries for like $5k.

It'll take a while to recoup that initial investment and the maintenance costs. Solar arrays also degrade over time...

Both solar and batteries need to go a long way.

[Jhhnn]

One place where solar pays off quickest is for domestic hot water, and that probably is even moreso for fish keepers. Households use hot water at all times of the year, and see the most gains in summer when sunshine is plentiful and ambient temps warmer. Drainback solar systems are quite simple, and the biggest expense is in the panels and the code required double wall heat exchanger. Payback is still a longterm affair for people who currently heat water with natural gas, considerably shorter for people who use electricity. I'd have a hybrid gas/solar hot water system myself, if I didn't live in a historical district and if my best exposure weren't on the front of the house... I'm not dumb enough to even approach the historical district people with the idea... It's a great neighborhood with a lot of advantages, but it's not for everybody-

http://bakerneighborhood.org/Map.php

[zimmjeff]

up here in maine I would have to set the house on fire to get it to 85.

[Eddie]

up here in maine I would have to set the house on fire to get it to 85.

Lmao


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[Dogbert4Pres]

I would have to set it on fire in Maryland too. I just tried to get the water temp to 80 but was unsuccessful. I used a 20k propane heater to heat the room and even after turning the fishroom into a rainforest, the water cracked 79. This burned about $30 worth of propane (6+ gallons) and that for a day. Sad thing is it is warm on the east coast when I tried, no single digit days mostly in the 40s and 50s here right now.

[TURQ64]

It's because your homes are poorly insulated for the retention necessary to heat the tanks...Mine varies 4 degrees from 'room temp' to tank temp....That said, I have 12" in the ceiling, and 6" in the walls, and then there's outside wind barrier sheathing, etc...If I were to have to rely on in tank electrics, my bill jumps over 600 a month..it's a minimum conservatively of 12,000 watts worth of heaters....continually lighting up....

[brewmaster15]

I have heaters in all the tanks as a backup, but I heat my fishroom with my woodstove. Its actually dual purpose..I cut floor vents in the ceiling and that same wood stove heats our Bedrooms which are above the fishroom. If I didn't do that, I could never afford to maintain my tanks.

-al

[x2h]

while you insulate the room with foams and heat it to 90 F you might as well grow some marijuana in there to pay for the heating bill... LOL just kidding.

if you age water in the same room and it comes out of tap at 39 F, I doubt it will become warm enough in 24 hours, even in a heated room.

[PleiadesSTi]

while you insulate the room with foams and heat it to 90 F you might as well grow some marijuana in there to pay for the heating bill... LOL just kidding.

if you age water in the same room and it comes out of tap at 39 F, I doubt it will become warm enough in 24 hours, even in a heated room.

hmmm......

[Wes]

while you insulate the room with foams and heat it to 90 F you might as well grow some marijuana in there to pay for the heating bill... LOL just kidding.
Planted tank. I wonder if it grows underwater?:idea: Fish would grow bigger to. They would always have the munchies.

[qiyanfeng]

I think which way you should go depends on how many tanks you have. The more tanks, high numbers like a hatchery, you more likely rely on the room temperature to save money. You really need to calculate by yourself. If possible, just try each method for a while. I would say, there's a tank number threshold to determine what kind of method is good for you. Sometime doing both ( for example room to 75, then in tank heater to 85 or whatever) maybe the best. So, you need to try.
For water storage tank, if you don't need bacterial to help you doing with ammonia and nitrite (if your city water doesn't have it), then you can use a 1000 or 2000w submersible heater with a temperature control. couple of hours before you want to use the water, you can start to heat it. It heats very fast actually in my hand, less than 2 hours from 40s to 88. The rest time, you don't need to plug it in ( save money). Just air it with air pump. Hope it's useful.
If you can't control humidity well, heat a room to 85 or higher with that much humidity is a disaster.

[j123]

Instead of tacking up stryofoam on the walls and ceiling, I think you would be better off doing a small remodeling job on your fish room. Put up 3" or so insulation (the real kind) on the walls and ceiling and possibly some paneling on top of it. It should stay nice and cozy after that. You'd probably save the money you spent on the remodeling on your gas bill. Also, Stryofoam is a nasty fire hazard -- POOF, there goes your house.