Need some Plant advise

[Johny_Dough]

Still struggling with my Discus. I've treated for about everything. But BD and Turks still hide in the back and are very dark. They eat like pigs and don't show any other symptoms but but dark coloring. Actually full color comes out in the morning when I come to the tank for water changes and feeding.

So that leaves me with maybe the lights are to high for them. I'm running 4 x 24 T5HO on a 75 Gallon that is 30 inches deep plus 2 x 24 LED strips in the back to get the dark spots (pentagon shaped tank). Also injecting C02. Hoping going more low tech solves some problems including low O2 levels.

If I alter the lights anymore I have to change some plants to low light.

Any suggestion on warm water low light plants?


This is what the tank looks like now...

http://gallery.me.com/gregcohan/100013/IMG_0350/web.jpg?ver=12972820840001

http://gallery.me.com/gregcohan/100013/IMG_0357/web.jpg?ver=12972821130001

Really didn't mean to carry on just looking for some plant inspiration.

will post water parameters after the break

[Johny_Dough]

PH - 6.8 at night, 7.5 after running air bubbles all night
KH - 4.5
GH - 5.5
Ammonia/Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 10 (added Nitrate remover to the filter but with all the water changes I really don't think it has any effect)
WC - 50% every other day with as much vacuuming as you can do in a planted tank w/ aged water
feed - FBW and Tropical flake in AM and FBW and Beefheart Flake in PM, Never any food left lying around

[Foxfire]

Check your phosphate levels, too.

[Johny_Dough]

Thanks... I am in a constant battle with Brown algae and now Black Beard Algae is taking hold of my slow growers. I suspected high Phosphates but (at least with the test kit I have) they measured on the lowest level of the color scale. Can't recall the numbers right now. I have lost some plants. But I have added a huge Java Fern and Wisteria and Glosso which seem to be very happy in there.

I'm trying to slowly increase mu C02 to battle the algae but I really struggle with O2 levels in this tank. I think because of the odd footprint (triangle) there is less surface area to oxygenate.

Here it is from this last weekend.

http://gallery.me.com/gregcohan/100019/IMG_0391/web.jpg?ver=12990216120001

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I have seen discus in a metal halide lighted tank before so lighting may not be the issue. I think over time they will adjust to the lighting. I was thinking of adding a T5 setup to my 95 gallon wave planted/discus tank.

I was thinking that it could be stress but you dont say how long you have had them? What is your water temp? maybe raise it to 86/87 and see how they react? Also heard that using a tablespoon of epsum salt may relax them too?

Good luck and hope all works out!

[Johny_Dough]

Have 4x24 T5 HO (But the tank is 30' deep) have them on for a total of 11 hours with about an 8 hour burst with all on. Water temp is a solid 86.

Discus do seem much happier lately. Always out and chasing each other. They have full color when I walk up to the tank and when they are feeding. Just starting to think it is the Black back ground. They have been in there about 2 months now.

Some of my plants have bit the dust though.
The Red Lud in the center turned black and melted. It all sucked up in my WC vacuum this morning.

[RudeDogg1]

You dont need to touch the nitrates the plants will deal with that, Id try some decent floating plants makes them feel more secure

[Foxfire]

If a plant has died than you are missing something - your trace iron, or magnesium or potassium are typically overlooked. I'm sure your lights are ok if other plants are ok; ditto on the CO2 (active or passive?) WC often help plants. Finally, since your phosphates are near zero (that's one I'd like) maybe that is missing - I don't like root tabs because they have phosphates (Mine are always too high), your case it appears to be an issue and you might consider trying.

One aside: do you run the air stone at night? Plants need O2 like fish do at night; CO2 should be off at night, if active - otherwise, just let the bubbler handle it.

Good luck.

[Johny_Dough]

WC 50% every 3 days with aged water
Ammonia/nitrites 0
Nitrates 10-20
KH 5
GH 6
Phosphates 0ish
O2 always low (adding a spray bar- also I do bubble at night)
Lights 4x24 T5 HO - down to 8 hours daily now
Drop checker - dark green (slowly turning up CO2)
Ph- 6.8 ish

Dose daily with ADA Brightly K and ADA green Brightly step 2.

Which I think(with my heavy fish load) covers all micro and macros

In the process of lowering Heat from 86 to 82 (at the advise of LFS he thinks this is contributing to algae issue)

Started spot treating Hair Algae and BBA with H2O2 yesterday. We'll see if that helps.






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[dbfzurowski]

I looked up the stuff your dosing, one doses Potassium, other Nitrogen and phosphorus. Heavy feedings dont cover micro, only nitrates. With such a planted tank I would think you still would need to dose nitrates. So you need to dose micro elements. I use flourish liquid with addition of iron & magnesium. Oh i just read you added nitrate remover?? your plants need nitrate I would remove the remover?. If I were you I would go online and buy dry fertilizing substances: KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and chelated iron. All are supper cheap in solid form.
I follow this
http://www.rexgrigg.com/ferts.htm
and everything is great.

[Foxfire]

Your lights (if intense) are on a long time (eight hours.) You might for to check your watts per gallon and see if you are near the high end - if so, their on, I think, too long. Finally, what are your iron levels?

[Foxfire]

I looked up the stuff your dosing, one doses Potassium, other Nitrogen and phosphorus. Heavy feedings dont cover micro, only nitrates. With such a planted tank I would think you still would need to dose nitrates. So you need to dose micro elements. I use flourish liquid with addition of iron & magnesium. Oh i just read you added nitrate remover?? your plants need nitrate I would remove the remover?. If I were you I would go online and buy dry fertilizing substances: KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and chelated iron. All are supper cheap in solid form.
I follow this
http://www.rexgrigg.com/ferts.htm
and everything is great.

Nice link - I wondered about Ca and why it might be needed (for soft water aquariums.)

[dbfzurowski]

I wrote a reply to this in the morning but I think, well I'm sure I forgot to click on "Reply to Thread" lol
I am not 100%on this but Ca is used as a buffer to increase water hardness and stabilize PH. Also helps with growing fish.

[Johny_Dough]

Pretty sure the Green Brightly Step 2 has Trace and Iron. Brightly K is Potassium. Nitrates are always over 10 so I think I'm good there. With Phosphates around 0 that may be a missing element. I haven't put much thought into that one because I intially thought my Algae issue was due to High Phosphates. Never even crossed my mind to meassure Iron levels. Guess I'll need to stop by the LFS and look for a test :-) I might switch to Flurish anyway. Damn ADA ferts are way to expensive. Also thinking of Pfertz brand or just taking the time to learn dry fertz and EI.

Just adjusted lights down to 8 hours from 10. Right now I have 4x24w T5 HO and 2 strips 18W Strips of HO LEDs. That's That's 132 W about 32 inches above the substrate. If you follow Hoppy on TPT at all his chart says that is High light but I wonder with this tank as light distribution is odd based on its shape. Basicly a corner triangle. Going to see if there is any noticible difference 8 hours for a week or 2 then might drop it down more.

So far no noticible change to algae issue after treating for 2 days with 2ml per gallon of H2O2.

[Len]

So far no noticible change to algae issue after treating for 2 days with 2ml per gallon of H2O2.

That seems like a lot of peroxide to be dosing with. If you didn't turn your filters off for awhile after you dosed, you may notice an impact on your biofoiltration. Keep your eye on your Ammonia and Nitrates over the next while to see if they creep up or even spike.

Also, your phosphates should be proportioned to your nitrates at 10:1 so if your nitrates are at 10 ppm then phosphates should be at 1 ppm. Too little phosphate can also cause a growth of algae in a planted tank.

Cheers,
Len

[Johny_Dough]

Thanks Len

I turn filter off for an hour during treatment. So far no changes to ammonia and nitrite levels. I'll recheck phosphates this morning.


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[dbfzurowski]

Is this what your using?
http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ADA-GREEN-BRIGHT-SPECIAL-SHADE-500ml-Aquatic-Fertilizer-/260699043906?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item3cb2dfb842#ht_1819wt_905
if so, it only contains Nitrogen and phosphorus

[Johny_Dough]

Nope I use this one

http://www.adgshop.com/Green_Brighty_Step_2_p/103-002.htm

FYI I did measure Phosphorus this morning and it is 0. So maybe I need to find a way to bring that up.

[Len]

Nope I use this one

http://www.adgshop.com/Green_Brighty_Step_2_p/103-002.htm (Green Brightly Step 2)




That product claims to be rich in iron, so you will also want to pay close attention to what the levels are for that in your tank. Too much iron will also cause algae to grow like crazy. Iron should be somewhere around .5 or 1.0 ppm

[greengreen84]

just wondering what the growth rates of the plants on the bottom of the tank because i noticed that your tank is very deep and may find it difficult to grow at that depth with the light you have? But have you fixed the o2 problem in the tank i had something simular too with the low o2 at night with the discus gasping for air in the morning I was told to create a soft ripple on the surface of the tank and it helps to circulate ferts and stablise Co2 as well. also Try and not use that air bubbler you lose alot of Co2 and can create unstable Co2 and ph, making huge ph swings and allowing algae to grow faster since it adapts to different conditions faster than the plants and do you worm your discus I know they go darker if they have worms just a few things for you to think about lol

[Johny_Dough]

I swapped most of the micro sword out for glosso, the dwraf sag doesn't have an issue at all, There is some donwoi down there but the verditct is still out on that one. The glosso is growing much better then the Micro sword which was just a breading ground for Staghorn(s?) Algae.

Yesterday I swapped the outflow with a spray bar which seems to get better ripple across the surface with out breaking the water. Last night I ran with no bubbles so I will test O2 this morning and tonight after running C02 all day and see where that is. But I'm hoping this solves a lot of my issues. I hated running the bubble for the exact reason you stated. I was getting a PH swing from 7.5 to 6.8. daily. After putting the spray bar in the discus were noticaly out most the day and the BD showed a lot of color. The turks (which are pretty stunted anyway) occationally show blue but the reds never come out.
I did worm them once.

Haven't found an Iron test yet at any of my LFS.

[Johny_Dough]

Also my Nitrates have been consistently at 0 for days now so I may need to figure out how to dose that.

[greengreen84]

potassium nitrate (powder dry ferts) use 1/8 of a teaspoon for every 20 gallons this will give you 5ppm of nitrate or you can get nitrogen in the seachem range but your pay more for it like 10x the price sometimes, their is alot of online sellers that sell the powder stuff

[Johny_Dough]

Well I put that theory to rest. O2 levels were at 2 mg/l this morning. I really can't figure out why I have this oxygen issue. Uhhgggg.

Thanks green. I'm thinking of getting the green package from GLA any switching all my ferts to dry/ EI method.

[saltydog]

I did not see where you answered this and if you did i apologize. But you you do turn your C02 off when lights go off right? Is your top open? That is a pretty significant ph swing and is sure to stress out some inhabitants. I am certainly not a plant expert but i will say what i do works. Now i will also say that my main focus is my fish but i find that sometimes the more you do the worse off you are. In my 180 i dose a PMDD dry mix every so often and have pressurized CO2. I used MH lights for the first year and had no issues with the brightness stressing out the fish. Now i use lower lighting but rarely even have to clean my glass. Just my two cents and again i am no plant expert in fact i am pretty new to the whole freshwater thing in general....been doing it for about a year and a half but with my years in the saltwater hobby i have found it carries over to freshwater as well. Continuing to add chemicals to your tank can really be stressing things out.

[Johny_Dough]

CO2 goes on about an hour before the lights and shuts off with them. It is a Pentagon Corner tank from Clear for life so it is sealed at the top but there is a 24 x 9 size hole in the front where the light is over and 2 16 x 3 size holes along the back of each side for equipment to go in so I'm pretty sure there is enough air flow. I did fill it up pretty high last night after the WC. About 2 inches from the top. Could put a fan up there I guess.