continuous or "flush" water change system

[hawaiidiscus]

I am building a tank rack system for breeding and growing out. It will include an automatic water change system. Would there be advantage to "flush" type water changes (e.g., 30% daily all at once) versus a continuous drip system? I am thinking I could build a barrel that fills gradually then syphons and drains all at once into the tank system, pushing waste water out the overflow. This would be similar to how the aquaponics folks do their flush and drain systems.

Would having occasional bursts of fresh water (matched, of course, to parameters) be beneficial versus a continuous water change (albeit easier to plumb)? thoughts?

[Jhhnn]

Interesting question. The one thing about the flush system that could cause problems is if the water weren't at the right temp, and I don't know how to interlock that to the cycle. Constant drip systems can use domestic water, particularly if it's run through an air to water heat exchanger that raises the water temp to room ambient. The continuous drip method also allows the fill system to catch up automatically after siphoning off detritus. Water conditioner dosing is an issue in either kind of system except for people on well water.

My own system is semi-automatic, where I have to initiate each phase of the cycle- partially draining the tanks, stopping that, filling the tanks from the barrels w/ barrel heaters off, stopping that, then adding conditioner and filling the barrels from the domestic supply, at which point the barrel fill cycle ends automatically and the barrel heaters come on. I haven't figured out how to properly interlock a fully automatic system that's fed from a chloramine treated water supply like my own.

Follow the links, click on the water changing system sub album in photobucket-

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?74240-Water-changing-system

[Eddie]

I'll be investing in a flush, very similar to asian breeders.


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[hawaiidiscus]

Jhhnn-I have sediment and carbon block filter as a precursor to my RO so will use a mix of the two water supplies. Temp is probably not an issue for drip, as rate will be slow. For flush I would trickle fill a container (containing a heater) that would reach the overflow level and siphon all at once into the breeding tank. A bit more effort to build but definitely do-able.

My thoughts are that since either system will require overflows in each tank, I will start with the trickle system (simple) and can always build in a sump/flush system. My bet is that the flush will be a help with breeding, as it will simulate flooding. And with a little thought could be harnessed to automatically flush the poo out too.

Would love to hear from anyone about any known benefits of flush system. Why are the Asian systems primarily flush rather than trickle? If is is really all about stability, trickle would seem to win hands down.

[Northwoods Discus]

With a continuous system you are getting less of a water change than an all at once change because some of the fresh water is mixing and exiting with the old water. If you do an all at once 30% you are doing a complete 30% If you do 30% all day the actual water change over is much less. The math can be done to approximate the actual percentage changed. It will also depend on where water exits and enters the system.

[Jhhnn]

From what I've seen, asian breeders' systems aren't automated, but rather labor intensive manual systems. That's just the pics and vids- I've never been there to see 'em in person.

As I understand it, carbon block filters will do a decent job with chlorine, but chloramines are much tougher to get rid of. I really can't speak with any authority, however. I'm just sure it's best to err on the side of caution wrt automation that might be running for weeks unattended. Those systems need to be quite robust and well thought out so that luck ceases to be much of a factor...

The one thing I'm sure of is that 100% untreated Denver water is lethal to aquarium fish, so I want to make sure that never happens.

[hawaiidiscus]

my understanding is that chloramines will be broken to chlorine + ammonia by a good carbon block filter. chlorine will be removed by carbon, then the ammonia passes into the tank, even if through RO membrane

[Mr.BigBlock]

hawaiidiscus, what part of Hawaii are you from? I'd be interested to know if you've tested your tap water and what the results were. I just got back into the hobby after a 15 year hiatus and when I was raising discus, I'd use straight tap w/o any problems.

[Foxfire]

With a continuous system you are getting less of a water change than an all at once change because some of the fresh water is mixing and exiting with the old water. If you do an all at once 30% you are doing a complete 30% If you do 30% all day the actual water change over is much less. The math can be done to approximate the actual percentage changed. It will also depend on where water exits and enters the system.

Great point and right on the money.

[Moon]

I have a continous drip system for all my tanks. I don't have chlorine issues because my water comes from a well. The temprature is controlled with a simple shower control unit.
I initially thought of using drip emitters but decided instead to use small taps for each tank. This way I can control the amount of water entering each tank. All tanks are drilled for the overflow. The system has been operational for over a year with no problems.

[Mr.BigBlock]

I have a continous drip system for all my tanks. I don't have chlorine issues because my water comes from a well. The temprature is controlled with a simple shower control unit.
I initially thought of using drip emitters but decided instead to use small taps for each tank. This way I can control the amount of water entering each tank. All tanks are drilled for the overflow. The system has been operational for over a year with no problems.

Any pics? I would love to see your system.

[jcardona1]

I had a drip system on an old 400g tank. Here's the info from my thread on a different forum:


Finally got all the parts I need to get this thing running. So far, so good and no leaks.

I wanted a cheap and easy 24/7 changer and I think I got what I wanted. It's definitely not as fancy as Li's system but I think this will get the job done for me. This is definitely an easy project and anybody can set this up. Since my tank is in the garage, running the feed and drain lines was very easy. Guys with tanks in the house may have to get more creative. In all, I spent about $130 in the system. Probably could have done it with less but I used good quality parts to avoid problems down the road.

I contacted my city's water department and checked their water quality reports. As it turns out, my city only adds chlorine and no chloramines. But I went ahead and installed a chloramine filter to take care of the chlorine and just in case they decide to add chloramines in the future. Besides, the chloramine filter setup costs about the same as purchasing a dual canister chlorine-only filter from Lowes or Home Depot.

Now on to the setup. My feed line is coming from the washer hookup (cold line). I installed a brass Y-valve with the appropriate fitting to get it down to 1/4" tubing:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456559&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456559&d=1264565375)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456560&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456560&d=1264565375)

Here is the chloramine filter itself. This unit goes for $62 from thefilterguys.biz. They're a great company and I highly recommend them for your advanced filtration needs. Feed line on the right, tank return on the left:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456561&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456561&d=1264565375)

And here is where the water feeds into the tank. I ran this on the opposite side and corner of where the overflow box is so it can mix with the tank water before being drained.

I'm currently running 2x 2gph drip emitters. This is effectively changing 96 gallons per day - roughly a 165% water change on a weekly basis. This flow rate is temporary for now as I want to get my nitrates down. Once my nitrate levels stabilize, I'm hoping to run a 1.5-2gph flow rate:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456562&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456562&d=1264565375)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456563&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456563&d=1264565375)

And lastly, here's the drain line out of my sump and where it drains down the driveway. I simply installed a small bulkhead and ran slightly larger diamter tubing all the way out of the garage. I couldnt figure out how else to use the water given where the tank is located, so this will do for now:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456564&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456564&d=1264565375)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456565&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456565&d=1264565375)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456581&thumb=1&d=1264565874 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456581&d=1264565874)

Now for the skeptics, here's some scientific proof http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I went ahead and purchased a chlorine/chloramine test kit from filterguys. The test kit doesn't separately test for chlorine and chloramine though. The instructions say that any pink color indicates a presence of chlorine and/or chloramine.

The clear water on the left is what is coming out of the chloramine filter, NO CHLORINE OR CHLORAMINES!!! The pink tube is straight out of the tap. http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Here's proof that granular activated carbon WORKS!!!!
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456558&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456558&d=1264565375)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456556&thumb=1&d=1264565375 (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=456556&d=1264565375)