Does the aggression bother you?

[ExReefer]

I love to see a tank full of discus, but there will always be pecking order within the group. I recently sold off all my juvies and only keep four adult discus at the moment. Adults of the same size and color seem to manage the stress of aggression much better than juvies. However, even with adults, there is still a pecking order and if pairs form, the aggression can get out of control in a hurry. I’m nearly to the point of just keeping a pair of discus. Perhaps that’s why so many of you keep breeding pairs. It allows you to keep beautiful adults without the aggression that I find so stressful.

I know all cichlids display aggression, but it’s much more difficult to manage with discus because of their size. For example, I can manage the aggression in my Lake Tanganyika tank by giving them a large tank and lots of rocks and shells. To manage aggression with discus, we need tanks much larger than what people typically use and set ups with cover. Quite the opposite of sticking six juvies in a BB 55G tank.

[John_Nicholson]

Aggression is a vital part of nature so I just take it with a grain of salt and go on.


-john

[zimmjeff]

It only bothers me when it affects the health of one of the fish.

[ExReefer]

I know, but I don't find it relaxing. A tank full of fighting fish isn't much different than organized dog fighting. The only difference is one is illegal, right? I don't really think that way, but it's kind of true. Perhaps I'm just burned out with this. When I first started keeping juvies I was distracted with all the feedings and WC's. Once I got into my routine and was able to focus more on the behavior of the discus, I started to notice the aggression.

[ExReefer]

It only bothers me when it affects the health of one of the fish.

When growing out juvies, I would argue that the aggression will directly affect the health and growth of the weaker fish.

[John_Nicholson]

When growing out juvies, I would argue that the aggression will directly affect the health and growth of the weaker fish.

Your right it does but it is also natures way. Just accept it and you will be happier. It is the way it is suppose to be except we have already made it easier on the weakest....In nature they would have been eaten. In our tanks they become runts.

-john

[William Palumbo]

They are Cichlids...it's what they do. Tho unlike dog fights, they usually don't fight to the death. I have found if you overstock a bit, or have lots of decor in the tank, that lessens it...Bill

[Jason K.]

I've come to exept the fact that you'll alway's have the fighting within a group. losing a fish here and there is just part of the hobby, it's what we as discus keeper's have choosen to do so I just take it as part of that... they can really beat the s@$t out of one another at time's.

[John_Nicholson]

They are Cichlids...it's what they do. Tho unlike dog fights, they usually don't fight to the death. I have found if you overstock a bit, or have lots of decor in the tank, that lessens it...Bill

Not that it matters but dogs rarely fight to th death. Now I have never been to a dog fight and I don't feel the need to go, but I was raise in Texas.....so I know a little about it. What I find disturbing is that this country will throw away resources to fight dog fighting when there are hungry children and abused women in this country. Also you can't make a dog fight...they are like discus it is just what they do......

-john

[William Palumbo]

LOL...OK John...I don't want to fight or derail the thread...Bill

[ShinShin]

Overstocking will disperse some aggression, but creates its own set of problems. It will help elimenate stress related diseases from aggression, but will add a whole new set of stress related problems. Not all your discus will reach 100% of their potential, so let nature be. Enjoy your fish.

Mat

[ExReefer]

Your right it does but it is also natures way. Just accept it and you will be happier. It is the way it is suppose to be except we have already made it easier on the weakest....In nature they would have been eaten. In our tanks they become runts.

-john

No, in nature, the weaker fish would escape to another part of the river. That fish may end up becoming the dominate fish in his new surroundings and grow into a stud male. In a glass box, that fish has no where to go and will not reach it's growth potential.

I know I'm being extreme, but the recommendations on tank and group sizes seem out of whack in this hobby. I can't buy into the 10gal per adult rule of thumb. It's just not enough room for a 6"+ inch fish. It should probably be closer to 50 gals per adult or we should be only be keeping discus pairs. I did the BB thing and loved it at first because it was easier for me. But after a short while, I felt it was selfish to keep my fish like that just to simplify maintenance. I grew tired of watching the fish on the bottom of the pecking order trying to flee from the top dogs all day long. It seemed cruel to not give the fish more room or places to hide. I considered upgrading to a 125G, but even that isn't large enough. Giving the fish another two feet of swimming room does not solve the problem. They are still trapped with other dominate, aggressive fish.

I know many of you don't like decor because you say your fish will hide. Well, they hide to escape from the dominate fish. That's natural.

[TonyAPBTx]

Nature has a way higher mortality rate of fry and discus than does aquarium keeping. The weak discus would never make it to any part of the stream because it is weaker genetically and will get eaten/kicked out wherever it goes.

This is how a species gets stronger. The elimination of the weak genetically and the strong surviving to give the next generation the best chance.

If the genetically weak were just able to transplant, grow into stud discus (despite their weak genetics) and breed there would be a whole lot of weak gened discus all over the Amazon.

The aggression is normal and shows you that your fish are healthy, vibrant and full of energy. It is also a form of social interaction amongst your fish.

You are going against nature by keeping the weaker fish alive. Normally, weak fish like that don't live to be bullied.

[ExReefer]

I understand the social interaction part of keeping cichlids. I've been keeping cichlids on and off for 25 years. I think I'm just tired of the aggression and bullying with discus. I completely accept that it's natural, but in the wild, I don't have to watch it. In captivity, I prefer to keep it to a minimum because I find it more enjoyable to watch the fish get along for the most part. Some aggression is enjoyable to observe, but when I see a pair tanking over 4 ft. tank and the others huddling in the corner, my level of enjoyment is diminished big time. Or when I see one of six juvies getting chased around 24/7, I find it stressful to watch. I'm at the point where I'd rather just avoid it and keep a pair of discus, other smaller sized cichlids, and planted tanks.

On a side note, surprisingly my four wild adult browns get along well so far in my 75G. It's only been a month, but there is very little aggression. It could be because they are all closely sized and of the same type. It could also be that two of them have not paired off yet. If and when that happens, I think the aggression will rise to a point where I'll have to sell off the other two.

[AquaSteve]

The agression in the tank can get a bit stressful for us outside the tank, so my solution is to move a few things around.

I keep a planted discus tank and when the aggression starts to ramp up, I move a couple of plants around and the discus get sooooo curious that they forget about the agression for a.....short while.

[John_Nicholson]

No, in nature, the weaker fish would escape to another part of the river. That fish may end up becoming the dominate fish in his new surroundings and grow into a stud male. In a glass box, that fish has no where to go and will not reach it's growth potential.

I know I'm being extreme, but the recommendations on tank and group sizes seem out of whack in this hobby. I can't buy into the 10gal per adult rule of thumb. It's just not enough room for a 6"+ inch fish. It should probably be closer to 50 gals per adult or we should be only be keeping discus pairs. I did the BB thing and loved it at first because it was easier for me. But after a short while, I felt it was selfish to keep my fish like that just to simplify maintenance. I grew tired of watching the fish on the bottom of the pecking order trying to flee from the top dogs all day long. It seemed cruel to not give the fish more room or places to hide. I considered upgrading to a 125G, but even that isn't large enough. Giving the fish another two feet of swimming room does not solve the problem. They are still trapped with other dominate, aggressive fish.

I know many of you don't like decor because you say your fish will hide. Well, they hide to escape from the dominate fish. That's natural.


OK I have to stop you here and ask a question....


On long term AVERAGE any many offspring will a single pair of discus in the amazon raise that will make it to be a breeding fish?

-john

[ExReefer]

OK I have to stop you here and ask a question....


On long term AVERAGE any many offspring will a single pair of discus in the amazon raise that will make it to be a breeding fish?

-john

Not sure. Where are you going with this?

[John_Nicholson]

The answer is really very simple if you think about it a while. Just think about how nature works and state your best opinion.

-john

[ExReefer]

My opinion is that very low numbers of fry reach adulthood in nature and that's why spawns are so large.

[CORVETTE70]

Hi i'm new here but would like to chime in a little. I agree with Aquasteve if possiable change decor around as often as possiable. All cichlids are territorial and by changing the scenery they have a rough time setting up boundries for other fish. I also agree in the wild they can swim away from the agressor but they could also be eat'n by a Redtail catfish just the same...just my 2 cents.

[John_Nicholson]

Earlier you were stating that "No, in nature, the weaker fish would escape to another part of the river. That fish may end up becoming the dominate fish in his new surroundings and grow into a stud male. In a glass box, that fish has no where to go and will not reach it's growth potential".....while in the real world the answer is 2........if the number is anything over 2 the population is increasing and anything lower it is decreasing......That is how nature works. It is much, much more cruel than most people realize....so if you had a spawn of 200 fry and over the next 18 months decided to eat 197 of them...not niclt mind you but just start chewing on them while they are a live you would still be nicer than the real world.....What I am saying is to stop sweating the little stuff. It is just how nature is and you are not going to change that.

-john

[William Palumbo]

Oh yea!...Nature is cruel...She can be a real (Fill in the blank)...I think once any wounded/weak fish leaves, or is forced to leave the safety of the school...it's time is limited...Bill

[Skip]

i am watching my two pb fighting with my red turq.. cuz they are hogging the food and turq is sick of being like that.. classic battle.. biting, nipping, body slams etc.. he will be eating. while being attacked on both sides.. LOL!! talk about being a trooper! LOL

[ShinShin]

Moving $hit around will have a very limited effect (if any) on discus aggression, and to be honest with you, in most cichlid tanks, in my experience. A fish will stake out a territory most of the time in an area of "X" amout of square inches and defend it. Change a rock or driftwould, and it will still look for about the same amount of area regardless. I've done this many times when I used to breed SA Dwarfs. I could keep 2 pairs of the same or different species in a 20L and in almost every instance, each male would claim an end and extend it ~22", causing an overlap. If I would keep all rocks, wood, plants, et. in an 12" area from the ends, they still claimed an overlap of the clearing. This is just another myth, IMO, that someone told a hobbyist along time ago and it just stuck around.

Discus aggression isn't so much a matter of dominance of territory (except breeding, which is done in only one season in the wild0, as it is in dominance of the pack. MOve the aggressor and another rises to be top dog.

East Africans may be another story. I have zero experience with them.

I suggest that you either deal with it or raise another genus.

Mat

[ExReefer]

Moving $hit around will have a very limited effect (if any) on discus aggression, and to be honest with you, in most cichlid tanks, in my experience. A fish will stake out a territory most of the time in an area of "X" amout of square inches and defend it. Change a rock or driftwould, and it will still look for about the same amount of area regardless.
I suggest that you either deal with it or raise another genus.

Mat

I agree, moving decor around does not work very long. Not even an hour in my experience with discus.

I do raise other cichlids for this reason. See my sig. I can keep a colony of julies and pair of shellies in a 40B without a problem, but I can just keep one pair of Pelvichromis Taeniatus in my 57G. Both tanks have the same 36x18" footprint. The shell dwellers I keep (Neolamprologus brevis) need an incredibly small territory. It's unreal. The female stays by her favorite shell and only strays away for food.