Stocking question

[Latro]

Hi, I started my first discus tank recently. It is a display tank; I'm not really in a position to have a grow out tank separate from the display tank at the moment. I put 4 small (~2'') discus in it 7 days ago. One of them I suspect had a problem from the supplier, because he was badly discolored and stressed before even entering the tank, and died within a day. The remaining three are still alive. I got another 5 days ago, and he died in 3-4 days, I forget exactly how long. (The original 4 were from the same supplier; the last was not, since we didn't want to pay to ship 1 fish.) He seemed to be OK before adding my tank's water to the bag but became very stressed afterwards.

Anyway, I now have three small discus in this tank, all of which are lively, eat well, and are in no particular distress. It's a 36 gallon, fairly lightly planted tank which also has 4 cories in it. I originally planned to have 4 discus in this tank, but am somewhat skeptical about attemping to add another to this tank after all this hardship already. On the other hand, the most recent death did correlate with an ammonia spike to 1 ppm in the tank (which is essentially over now). Do you have any thoughts?

I'd post pictures but my post count is still too low; with a few responses I should be able to get it high enough to show them.

[moon_knight1971]

Has this tank cycled yet? How long have you been running it?

[Latro]

It was fishless cycling for 4 weeks followed by 2 weeks with several cories present in it. It appeared to be cycled when I put the discus in it (zero ammonia, zero nitrite), although I will admit that I did not subject the biological filter to big ammonia spikes as I probably should have before adding the discus. Also, I had to change the filter media once or twice during the fishless cycle, due to a foolish mishap involving laterite, which may have impeded things somewhat as well. Overall, though, about 7 weeks, and the ammonia is down again now, so I'm pretty sure it's cycled.

[CajunAg]

Welcome to Simply! Sorry to hear of your hardship. Did you do a large water change after the cycle was "complete"? This is the only way to get rid of the massive amount of Nitrates that should have been present if the tank was fully cycled. Did you test for nitrate before adding fish?

[Latro]

Welcome to Simply! Sorry to hear of your hardship. Did you do a large water change after the cycle was "complete"? This is the only way to get rid of the massive amount of Nitrates that should have been present if the tank was fully cycled. Did you test for nitrate before adding fish?
I did not check for nitrates; I didn't realize the level got all that high in just the few weeks of cycling (it was my understanding that nitrates became a problem over the long term more than anything). I had been doing 30% or so water changes weekly, though, before adding the discus, and have been doing more than that since, generally the same size but several times a week, minus the change after I detected the ammonia spike, which was larger. I'll have to check the nitrate levels later today; I'll post pictures at that time as well.

Is it possible that using stresszyme (a bacteria booster) as directed impeded my cycle, leaving this ammonia spike open as a possibility? (If so, that'll teach me to take advice from the LPS I suppose...)

[CajunAg]

The level of nitrates corresponds to how much nitrite was produced during a cycle. Ordinarily, if you start from scratch, the nitrifying bacteria will turn the ammonia added into nitrite, this level will continue to climb until it "spikes" and starts to come down. The fall of nitrites signals that nitrate is being produced, so when the nitrite level reaches 0 you should have a large amount of nitrates. All throughout the cycle the ammonia should be continually monitored and dosed to keep it around 2-4ppm, thus ensuring the nitrfying bacteria are fed, which means the resulting nitrite is consumed to make the nitrate.

It's hard to judge how much nitrate "should" be in there after a few weeks of cycling, everyone's results are different. The important part is to check, at the very least, before you add fish. If there are any nitrates present (and there should be, if not the tank might not be fully cycled), a big water change, 75% or larger, is needed. Then your tank will be ready for fish. The cory's could probably handle the higher concentrations of nitrate, for the time being, but they and especially discus can't handle much. That's why everyone does such large and frequent water changes, so the more you can do the better.

Your ammonia spike leads me to believe that your tank is not yet fully cycled, or that something unnoticed has died. If you can maintain large water changes for a few weeks at least, the bacteria should catch up and everything should level out. Don't add any more fish, and vacuum remaining food and poo as often as possible.

[Latro]

Well:
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm

Seems like my tank is indeed not quite perfectly cycled. Another 50% water change coming up I suppose. In another thread I mentioned that I use RO water in this tank. This is because the pH of my tap water is pretty high (about 7.5), it is rather hard in terms of GH (test strips are all I have for GH, but they seemed to suggest around 200 ppm GH), and it is moderate in terms of KH (3-4 dKH; I have a liquid test for this). In that other thread people were suggesting simply migrating them to tap water, and saying that they'd do fine in that tap water. This seems a little extreme to me, at a glance; any thoughts on these short term changes in particular?

I mentioned I was going to post pictures, so here they are:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/blindbravado/100_0019.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/blindbravado/100_0026.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/blindbravado/100_0025.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/blindbravado/100_0023.jpg

[Latro]

Sorry to necro my thread, but this is still a stocking question, and this way I have all the info still in one place:

Two and a half weeks later all these fish still seem to be doing pretty well. The red marlboro disturbs me sometimes with his hiding activity, but on the other hand he's usually out and about and eats quite well. The others are doing great, although the pigeon is honestly doing a bit too great, and has grown quite a bit more than the other two. It's getting to the point that he's actually quite aggressive; today he actually hurt the turq enough to make him darken and shake a bit (but he has calmed down now, and this is also a first as far as I've seen.)

Anyway, as I said in the first place, my original goal was to have 4 discus in this tank. I haven't had much success with my fourth discus so far obviously, but am wondering if you think the tank is even big enough for it. If so, how do you suggest proceeding? Sizes? Quarantining? How would quarantining with only one fish in a tank go? (I don't have a QT set up, but am in a position to set one up without too much financial trouble I think.) Or do you think I should just bite the financial bullet and move these fish into a 55 or something and get 2 or 3 more fish?

Thanks again, by the way.

[Eddie]

Personally I'd hold out and get a 55. I would also like to let you know that your current fish are of not too good quality and may not grow too much. They are stunted unfortunately, meaning they are set back in their age. Definitely look at getting some future stock from one of the sponsors.

Also, your water is fine at 7.5 ph. There is no need for RO water at all unless your PH is up in the high 8-9 range and your are interested in breeding. You want to age your water 24 hours and see what the PH does. This can be done in a bucket with an airstone, overnight.

[Latro]

Personally I'd hold out and get a 55. I would also like to let you know that your current fish are of not too good quality and may not grow too much. They are stunted unfortunately, meaning they are set back in their age. Definitely look at getting some future stock from one of the sponsors.

Also, your water is fine at 7.5 ph. There is no need for RO water at all unless your PH is up in the high 8-9 range and your are interested in breeding. You want to age your water 24 hours and see what the PH does. This can be done in a bucket with an airstone, overnight.
Are they really stunted? How do you identify that, exactly? I've read about the eye size, although I don't really know how big is big (I've seen pictures where it's obviously huge, but they don't seem to be that way). Given how heavy his markings are I wouldn't be surprised if the turq was stunted, admittedly, but are you sure about the other two? Especially the pigeon, who has grown like crazy in the last few weeks?

Also, as it turns out these three are from Angelfish USA. The first one that died was as well; the second one that died was from a LPS.

And yes, in another thread I mentioned that I had changed to my tap water; they actually seemed to like that a fair bit better.

[Eddie]

Are they really stunted? How do you identify that, exactly? I've read about the eye size, although I don't really know how big is big (I've seen pictures where it's obviously huge, but they don't seem to be that way). Given how heavy his markings are I wouldn't be surprised if the turq was stunted, admittedly, but are you sure about the other two? Especially the pigeon, who has grown like crazy in the last few weeks?

Also, as it turns out these three are from Angelfish USA. The first one that died was as well; the second one that died was from a LPS.

And yes, in another thread I mentioned that I had changed to my tap water; they actually seemed to like that a fair bit better.

The pigeons aren't as bad as the turq. They are still very small so there is time to grow them out and see how they fair. Good move on the switch from RO to tap, it will assist them in their growth.

[vera]

The pigeons aren't as bad as the turq..
+1