I think I'm fighting my water, please tell me what you think

[atitagain]

My 125 I run straight tap and prime and have run peat in my canister with my fingers crossed.

The water cycled after a water change last night and I tested everything today.

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates were perfect.

PH 8.6
GH 7
KH 5

I've started slowing doing RO water changes to a couple smaller tanks and just tested the PH tonight 7.5 on my 20. The LE was in the 20 and he seems to really be improving.

I use the Sera test kit and ran everything twice just to make sure there was no operator error on the 125.

I'm a little concerned that this tap is just stressing the fish and giving me some of the problems I'm having with my guys (or gals).

Everything I've read tells me that unless I do something with the tap getting the stuff like PH down just won't work and that I'll get bounce back which would be worse for the fish.

I've read as much as I can here but no one example was like mine and I wanted to see what input I could get from you folks.

My long term plan is to do RO/tap mix and shoot for 7.0 for a PH.

[TURQ64]

your R/O reject (waste) is a good stabilizer; it's already been throught he prefilters and carbon...

[atitagain]

Thanks Turq!

So if you could elaborate a little further that would be great. I'm a rookie trying to find some help finding that sweet spot for my water and the fish. Lat time I did this....15 years ago it wasn't this tough and my water was good.

I'm getting ready to throw in the towel.

[flyman767]

Why are you trying to lower the PH? Discus can and will thrive in a various range of Ph's. What you need to do is worry about the stability and not the value. Shooting for a PH number is like playing the lottery.. it's a unnecessary gamble that can lead to a stressed-and very sick fish.

The key is to make slow changes of the percentage of RO/tap. This will keep the osmotic pressure to a minimum. If your worried about this you can check the water via a relative inexpensive TDS meter.

Once you determined your percentages of ro/tap(KH should be a minimum of 4);aerated your water for a minimum of 24 hours, your PH should remain relatively stable.

[atitagain]

Ray, the insight is appreciated.

Reading as much as I can on Discus everything you've said in your post about consistency I've read on SD but the one area that has me concerned is that my PH is consistently at 8.6 or 8.7.

Trying to soak up as much information as I can everything I'm reading says that 8.0 is really the top of the range for Discus comfort zone. Some opinions vary but unless I'm missing something the majority of folks say that's to high. I may have mis-read it, I have been wrong before but it sounds like most peoples comfort zone is 7.0 to 7.5.

In 8.6 my fish seemed stressed. My tank cycled properly, everything seems great and a fish gets sick, one gets better and the next one sick.

I'm sticking with the water change program that everyone here use's but my luck or something I'm doing is just plain wrong!

[Jayhawk]

I agree with what has been said. I have good luck with high PH around 8.6. I use a lot of waste water from the RO unit. In my experience they will even breed in the hard, high PH water. Discus are happy in consistent, clean water.

Shane

[nc0gnet0]

Is this city water or well water? While most other will chime in that your tap is fine, IMHO that is a little on the high end of the ph spectrum. Oddly enough however, your gh and kh levles aren't all that high for that high of a PH value. I would be curious to see what your actual water chemistry is....ever consider getting it tested?

[William Palumbo]

If I remember correctly, you are in the Chicago area, and I assume using Lake Michigan water. Not sure why you would not use that for growing out and raising Discus. Breeding is another story, and that's when RO is needed...Bill

[Discus Origins]

I have Florida water which avgs 7.8 ph and GH of 8. I'm curious how you are using peat and RO water that your ph is still so high and GH at 5. I use straight RO water with my wilds and overtime with the biological cycling my ph stabilizes at 6.0 without having to add anything. I have kept domestics in RO waste water also but prefer my ph not above 8.

Check to make sure your RO unit is producing water with 0-1 GH. otherwise the membrane needs to be replaced.

Mark

[atitagain]

Jayhawk when you say you use the RO waste water what exactly do you mean.

nc0gnet0 it is city water. Never thought about getting it tested.

Bill you are correct, I'm in Carol Stream a burb outside of Chicago.

m3h3c3 the RO unit is new, I've only produced a couple hundred gallons of water but I'll check it.

I'm just trying to get a handle on why my fish keep getting dark and hiding. My snakeskin was doing outstanding! I did a decent water change and went out of town Thursday night and when I came home Friday afternoon it was black. Nothing has changed in the tank! The SS has a small fungus (?) on it's pectoral fin. It's tough to figure out, the SS has been in the tank from the beginning (3 months) and this is the second time he's been sick. I just got him back in the main tank a week or so ago and everything was looking real good.

http://www.chitown-angler.com/2fish/albums/userpics/10001/sskin.gif

I have a LE that was doing fine in a QT and then it's eyes clouded up. Again I've done nothing more than water changes.

Just trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing wrong and try to fix it. It's getting a little frustrating to think that I'm doing something that is messing with these fish! So far the only thing I can think of is my tap because that's really the only thing that's changing and now I have two ill fish.

[flyman767]

There are thousands of threads you can research on PH. It may not be 'statistically normal' with the water perimeters you've quoted; however, my city water is very similar to yours: PH-8.4(9.2 before aeration), GH-14, KH-4.

When I started in this hobby, I was told my PH was too high for discus. I kept trying to alter the water to make what I thought was 'perfect'. However, all I did was add unnecessary stress due the task of trying to achieve the perfect PH.

There are several SD members here, including myself, who've achieved fantastic results with grow-outs with similar water perimeters to yours. In fact, some have even claimed good results with a PH as high as 10.0!!

IMO..unless you are going to breed, I would let it ride. Good Luck!

[TURQ64]

I'm seeing leaves in your photo..Is this a planted tank? If so, when you stir up the substrate, what happens? My tap is 7.9, and after aeriation, it's as high as 9.1...I sure wish it would 'drop' when aeriated, but that's the nature of the cold, compressed molecules before gassing off..So, I blend R/O, R/o wasste, ans sometime tap with Safe to level out a new tank and match whatever I broke down...That's my usage of R/O reject, other's may vary.. My wilds are also in straight R/O along with peat when fitting...
I'm asking the above q's to see if maybe we're not dealing with just a ph issue...

[atitagain]

flyman767, If I told you the amount of hours I've spent reading about water, PH, hardness and TDS would would call me a lair. Something is stressing my fish and I'm just trying to figure it out. The problem is that there are about 10 million different opinions on water.

The wife and I just wanted a tank of discus like we had 15 years ago, for whatever reason I was better at it then...

I only have the one tank (well two QT tanks, but they don't count) and it's in our bedroom. It's a drag going to bed at night and seeing a new stain of stress Discus I've created. They are eating just dark and my SS picked up another fungus on his pectoral. Started medicating last night and it looks a little better already but the SS is dark!

It does have gravel but the plants aren't real and 3 good size pieces of driftwood that should be helping.

Turq, like I said earlier I trying to understand what you guys are doing to find your sweet spot. I read a little about using the brine to reconstitute the water but there seemed to be the opinion you needed to be very accurate every time with the brine.

Having to just do the one tank is (plus QT's) it isn't really that big of a problem doing an RO/Tap mix. I have 2 50 gallon brutes and the system ready to go just to want to leap before I understand what I'm doing.

I guess what I should do is start mixing some RO and tap and check the PH, heat it and give it some air and come back in 24 hours and test it again.

The only thing I can't find is if using an RO/Tap mix the water is less stable. let's just say I find the right mix and consistently use it for water changes. For lack of a better term, would this mix become corrupt faster than normal tap. Is it prone to more fluctuations or once stable you kind start living the good life and have a cocktail?

Last thought, and even if I get my cage rattled I'm hoping for some help.

Are you better off going straight RO and using something like Kents RO right still bringing the PH to 7.4 because I don't want to breed!

Once my tank is established the QT's are wrapped up and used for hospital tanks if needed.

I just can't figure it out! :mad:

[flyman767]

atitagain,

I hope you are aerating you water? With a high PH the osmotic pressure change can be significant. If so, what is your PH before and after?

Are you certain that is a fungus on the fin? I've had a few of mine get what appears to be a 'white pimple'(similar to your photo) attached to the body and/or fins. I've done PP baths; however, they seem to fall off on there own and have no real adverse effects on the health of the fish. You really don't want to start throwing meds at them without knowing for sure what your dealing with...this is a certain slippery slope to death.

[TURQ64]

Those 'R/O conditioners' are a waste of your money; that's why I get a balance from the addition of the reject and tap; they contain the minerals the R/O membrane strips..There's really no reason to shoot for straight R/O for what you have going....The stability also comes from the minerals in the water....I prefer to use water for adjustments, not chemicals and snake oils......HTH, Gary
p.s. nasties lurk in the gravel.....

[atitagain]

p.s. nasties lurk in the gravel..... LMAO, I was waiting for that one with most folks having BB tanks on the site.

Do you add the brine, aerate and test to find your desired PH? Any bounce back.... never mind you change your water faster than the speed of light j/k.

If you didn't do daily water changes would you get bounce back?

And flyman767, aerated and heated for at least 24 hours. I was introduced to a biologist tha't focus was marine illness, I send him pictures and smptomes before I do anything. He believes it's a reoccurance of the problem they had weeks ago. That's what has me ponding what the hell I'm doing wrong.

Gary would it be worth it to have fish in their desired zone. 8.6 seems to be a little high. Could that be causing some of my issues?

[TURQ64]

possibly, but my guess is that any water related stress is from swings, not the ph...it's higher than I like, but not horrible...if you can balance it to around 8 without a bunch of headaches, it might be better,but..methinks something else is adding to their discomfort...

[atitagain]

Want to take a stab at it.

When they were doing well nothing bothered them, whether the wife or my pup or I came into the room they all came right up to the glass.

Now is when I take my beating. With the gravel in the tank I get a limited look at their poop but what I've seen is black and well formed. They get flake, FBW and BW and even now are eating like they've never been feed, it's the only time they look good.

The LE in the QT is a different story. Cloudy eyes, dark and not eating. All of the fish came from the same breeder but at different times. The LE was doing great and then a week later problems.

I stumped and not sure what to do. I was talking to the wife tonight and got talk out of throwing in the towel. It's been a tough run and so far everyone's held on but I don't like killing anything I can't eat.

Not sure what else to look at......

[flyman767]

Cloudy eyes could be a sign of a bacteria infection. However, he's probably stressed because he's QT by himself. If it were me..I probably just put he back with his friends and keep up with daily wipe downs and w/c's.

[atitagain]

Alright here's a rookie question because I've never bred discus. I've got a 5" SS, two 4" turks and a PB that's a little bit larger than the turks. With everyone finally back in the tank together the PB looks like it's becoming dominate. There's a lot of pushing and shoving and the PB works both sides of the tank. Is it possible that the PB Has got all these fish stressed to the point of where the SS is black as coal and the others are a little clamped up? One of the turks looks like it was pairing up with the SS and every time the PB comes near the two the turk tries to lead it away and then backs up to the SS.

When I feed the SS gets most of it's color back but I purposely spread them out during feeding.

I'm asking only because of a lack of experience but could it be that simple? They have only all been back together for a couple weeks.

[flyman767]

There cichlids and there is always a definitive pecking order..you've got to let it play out. I've seen pecking orders change overnight. It always better to have at least 6, this way they can spread out there aggression.

[atitagain]

There cichlids and there is always a definitive pecking order..you've got to let it play out. I've seen pecking orders change overnight. It always better to have at least 6, this way they can spread out there aggression.

Agreed but with everything I've posted is now really a good time to be adding more fish?

[flyman767]

Agreed but with everything I've posted is now really a good time to be adding more fish?

Sorry..I guess I missed something. I thought your last post stated they were all back together??

[atitagain]

Sorry you didn't miss anything flyman. I should have typed out my entire thought.

I have the four back together in the tank after breaking them up do to illness. I agree that the number really isn't good at four but adding to the mix right now could just cause more problems.

It sounded right in my head just didn't convert very well in my post. Sorry