rapid breathing, hiding, inconsistent. Help please!?

[Vicfortier]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Have had the four discus for over a month. When I first got them they were very ill and treated them with quick cure and triple sulfa. I lost one of the discus due to an unknown reason, after about a week it started swimming in circles upside down, right side up, died a two days after it started. The other three seemed 100% improved other than continued rapid breathing in all discus accept the largest, which i am now having problems with. I moved them to a 60 gallon bare bottom, so i could buy 3 new discus and QT them in the smaller tank, and noticed that in fact the largest of the group was not eating and still was suffering from fin rot. That has been 2 weeks ago. I have since treated with triple sulfa again as per directions for a single treatment and gotten rid of the fin rot, but the largest has still not eaten, he continues to hide, and only rarely comes out with the others. I have seen him pick at food in the most minimal way. I have had the rest of the group eating from my hand for a week now, but in the past 2 days they have also started to hide after eating only a few bites.
Also the 3 newest fish in a seperate QT tank seem fine other than rapid breathing, which was not noted when i purchased them.




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

turning dark, not eating, hiding, cloudy eyes in the largest one.

abnormal eating habits, hiding immediately after eating from my hand, rapid breathing, and also ive noticed the are holding their top and bottom fins close to their body as opposed to spreading out -> in the smaller ones.





3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Originally when i bought them i used QuICK Cure an Triple Sulfa, seemed to work on everyone except the largest discus. Most recently i have re dosed with Triple Sulfa and have seen the fin rot go away but behavior remains the same.




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

60 Gallon tank, 1 month set up, fully cycled filters, 4 discus, 2.5-3.5 inches


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

50% daily, running for a month, bare bottom, aged tap.


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __84-86___

- ph __8.0___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __~15__

- well water __X__

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
None

I am stumped on what to do here. Any help will be greatly appreciated and i will be more than happy to answer any questions as soon as i see them posted.

[Vicfortier]

goin to bed for now, will check back tomorrow. I should note that the largest one is the one i am most worried about. He does come out after i have fed and walk away, and roams around like he wants to eat.

[Eddie]

Sounds like a case of poor quality fish.

[Vicfortier]

I would agree except the fish, when at the supplier, all were breathing normally and eating normally.

[Vicfortier]

Eddie! you have killed my thread! No one will try and answer after even you just toss it up to poor quality fish! punk. Could Iron bacteria in my water cause problems like this? or high iron in the water?

[Eddie]

Iron can be lethal, never looked into iron bacteria.

The thing is, when you start with poor quality fish, there is no other reason for them falling ill. Start with quality stock and then look into other reasons.


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[atitagain]

Are you cleaning up feces when you clean the tank?

I've been reading here for months and even without a microscope poop ( or lack of) tells a lot. I had one that was constipated once due to a poor diet and had some of the same symptoms you're describing. I had just read a thread that pointed me in the right direction, noticed it quick and Epsom salt solved the problem.

I don't know a whole hell of a lot but I thought I would throw it out there just in cause.

[Vicfortier]

I understand. But now what do i do? Kill the fish i currently have, or try and help them to become healthy? Im either stuck working with poor quality fish, or just throwing $200 down the toilet. Seriously, if you think i should kill the fish and start over then tell me and i will. If you disagree with killing them then help me. What would you do?

[Eddie]

Don't kill them just yet. We'll see what we can do. Can you get some pictures.


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[Vicfortier]

I'll get pics as soon as i can. just tryed and they all hid, dont like my camera for some reason. I did finally see some of the feces from the largest fish. it was white and thick, almost looked like a larva, white just a tiny spot of brown in the center. The smaller fish do are doing better with not hiding, it just seems to be an off and on thing, like they are easily spooked.

[flyman767]

I see you are on a well..have you had your water tested? Iron?

[Vicfortier]

I had it tested when i first got the place 3 years ago. Discus weren't even a twinkle in my eye at that point. so needless to say it got thrown away. I want to get it tested again asap. probably tomorrow will find a place to do it.

[yim11]

Did you post something about your fixtures and such turning rust colored from the water? If so, its very likely your water will not work for discus, so even if you toss these and get more you may end up with the same problem.

Seems like I recall someone else on a well getting some sort of iron filter, I'll see if I can find it but maybe try searching for 'iron filter' and see what comes up. Worse case you can always go RO and just re-mineralize.

HTHs,
-jim

[TURQ64]

Not to rain on the R/O parade, but heavy iron tears membranes up in short order....when I had a well, the membranes were more costly than a new girlfriend!...they work, but have short lives..

[yim11]

Not to rain on the R/O parade, but heavy iron tears membranes up in short order....when I had a well, the membranes were more costly than a new girlfriend!...they work, but have short lives..

That makes sense. I know I read about someone using some sort of prefilter(s?) for iron heavy water but haven't found it yet.

[Vicfortier]

Yeah, I did post about about the stains on my fixtures. I just did a search on iron filters they seem to be very hard to come by. Best one I see is from budgetwater.com. anyways, let me get up and rolling to see if I can find someone to test my water, hopefully for free.

[mmorris]

It took 2-3 weeks for the water filtration companies I contacted to give me the water test results and recommend a system. The cheapest system was $4,500. Someone then told me about a plumber's supply place that let me buy the system as a diy. I had to send in a sample and they then recommended a system that cost around $800. This way is definately more of a hastle, though, and if I had to do it over again, I would have gone with a good-quality water softener. I have to add magnesium and calcium back to my water anyway. I can take a sample to the nearest water testing facility. They charge $10 for each item I want tested (iron and turbidity for me) and the results come back in a couple of days. If you are worried about iron bacteria, lift the tank lid behind the toilet. If the walls of the tank are rust colored but smoothly covered, you have iron. If you have globs of rust color, you may have iron bacteria and your well may need a chlorine shock.

[Vicfortier]

I did a home test this weekend and found that i do have iron, 1-2ppm. I deffinatley have iron bacteria, i have globs and the bacteria even takes hold in m aging barrel and makes the walls slick and all the pumps and heaters inside slick. I have seen some backwashing filters oline for 550 - 1000 dollars that are suppose to reduce iron http://www.budgetwater.com/iron_filters.htm. But since i also have iron bacteria i would have to also do a chlorine injection system. I dont know yet what im going to do. Considering getting away from the hobby until i can work out my water situation.

[Eddie]

I did a home test this weekend and found that i do have iron, 1-2ppm. I deffinatley have iron bacteria, i have globs and the bacteria even takes hold in m aging barrel and makes the walls slick and all the pumps and heaters inside slick. I have seen some backwashing filters oline for 550 - 1000 dollars that are suppose to reduce iron http://www.budgetwater.com/iron_filters.htm. But since i also have iron bacteria i would have to also do a chlorine injection system. I dont know yet what im going to do. Considering getting away from the hobby until i can work out my water situation.

This sounds like a wise decision. Water has way to much affect on the fish so its important to get that worked out, that way you have less variables to work against.

All the best,

Eddie

[mmorris]

I did a home test this weekend and found that i do have iron, 1-2ppm. I deffinatley have iron bacteria, i have globs and the bacteria even takes hold in m aging barrel and makes the walls slick and all the pumps and heaters inside slick. I have seen some backwashing filters oline for 550 - 1000 dollars that are suppose to reduce iron http://www.budgetwater.com/iron_filters.htm. But since i also have iron bacteria i would have to also do a chlorine injection system. I dont know yet what im going to do. Considering getting away from the hobby until i can work out my water situation.
I looked at their page when I was investigating the problem but this set me off: "BEWARE of "slicksters" and "snake oil salesmen" trying to sell water softeners as iron filters. You never use a water softener as an iron filter." Well, yes, people do use water softeners for relatively low levels of iron. As I understand it, though, it has to be in the ferrous, dissolved, state before a softener can remove the iron by, I believe, ion exchange. If your water comes out of the tap clear, then it is in the ferrous state. The iron can convert to the ferric, insoluble, form pretty quickly upon contact with air and then you can see particles settling out of the water. You may also need an air injection system. I did. This draws air into your line between the well and the well pump (inside the house) so the iron can change to ferric and the iron filter can then filter it out. The iron filter goes after the well pump. My water barrel was covered in slick iron; everything that came in constant touch with the water was rust-colored and slick. That was iron, rather than iron bacteria. If it's globby, though, it sounds more like iron bacteria. Look up shocking a well with chlorine before investing in chlorine injection. In the meantime, age your wc water overnight with a heater, aerating heavily and filtering it at the same time. I think I already explained this elsewhere. The best filter I found for filtering out iron in the barrel was a diatom filter. It beat out my Eheim, hob's and in-tank filters. The aeration will change the water from ferrous to ferric, and it can then be filtered. No need to get away from the hobby just yet. :)