Very Suddenly Sick

[Second Hand Pat]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Arrived home at 2:30, this alenquer was happy, normal and begging for food. Went outside a couple of hours, look in tank fish was 2/3 dark and darted to back of tank and came to rest between a bit of wood and back of tank and sat there. I could not even see the fish breathing. I washed hand and arm, reached in and touched fish. It darted to front of tank is lying on the sand bed. Picture below.

All other fish look normal.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

No symtoms on this fish or any of the other fish in the tank :(


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Upon seeing fish in this condition, adding 1 table salt/per 10 gallon to simply be a stress reliever.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

75 gallon with 12 gallon sump. 5 discus 5 to 6 inch each.
1 cardinal tetra.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

50% every other day/ 3 months / thin sand bottom.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____82

- ph _____ 7.8

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____Between 0 and 5.0

- well water ____Y

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

Add new alenguer last week after 5 week QT.


Additional Info: Food: BH mx (with baby vet. added), BH flake, Vegetable based flake, and FDBW.

Water: Aged 80% tap/RO 20% mix.

There has been no indication of anything wrong in this tank. Whole house as been happy and hungry so at a lost on this one. This fish does not seem to be breathing but have seen it shake once (about 5:30 PM)

Last water change was last night, changed about 60/65 percent.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Dead%20Discus/P4220112.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Dead%20Discus/P4220113.jpg

[TURQ64]

Bummer..sorry to see this; he looks like toast from here....Startled, brain fart, and then dashed into something??...

[jimg]

Sorry to hear that Pat. Didn't you have one do something similar a few weeks ago?

[Jason K.]

sorry to see that pat...i've had head stander's go in a day but nothing that fast.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bummer..sorry to see this; he looks like toast from here....Startled, brain fart, and then dashed into something??...

Yea Gary, my thought too :( and do believe it's toast too. :( c**P


Sorry to hear that Pat. Didn't you have one do something similar a few weeks ago?

One of the Uatuma blues have minor HITH. I followed that up by adding vitamins (especially D) to the BH mix. Same tank however, possible relationship?

[YSS]

Sorry about continued issues. I've had many instances of something like this happening over the last few years. Anyhow, this is not the same tank you had a problem with when you were gone for a weekend, right? It does look like a darting problem and unfortunately, no one seems to know what exactly causes this. When darting was an isuse for me, it would happen out of no where and without any visible symptoms. I don't think it's because the fish got spooked. It's because something is wrong with the fish and/or water. Hope it doesn't spread to other fish. Stay strong.

[Second Hand Pat]

sorry to see that pat...i've had head stander's go in a day but nothing that fast.

Me either Jay, I was pretty shocked to walk in a see that. Maybe it's what Gary said. Also asked hubby if he had strayed anything in the home and he said no.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry about continued issues. I've had many instances of something like this happening over the last few years. Anyhow, this is not the same tank you had a problem with when you were gone for a weekend, right? It does look like a darting problem and unfortunately, no one seems to know what exactly causes this. When darting was an isuse for me, it would happen out of no where and without any visible symptoms. I don't think it's because the fish got spooked. It's because something is wrong with the fish and/or water. Hope it doesn't spread to other fish. Stay strong.

Correct, this is a different tank. I will and watchful.

[lizziotti]

Oh Pat,
I'm so sorry, how sad.

[Jason K.]

I don't think HITH would take a fish that fast... perhap's he did bash his head severly. sorry I can't help...

[jimg]

I just thought you came in one day awhile ago and found a discus dead or dying for no apparent reason?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Lizz.

jimg, yes, the weekend I was gone for a weekend to my niece's wedding and happen in a different tank. The fish was upside down barely breathing and I culled it. It's side were ruffed up maybe from BN attack. One of the other fish had some marks on it's side and several member's suspected BN attack also. Could not be BN in this case but could be a water relationship?

[jimg]

I would definitely check water maybe if you see others darting in the near future try carbon in the filters, may be toxins. may have just been spooked and hit his head as others say. I think in the other cases the bn got on them after they were down.
Sorry again, seems whenever things are going too good something has to hamper it!

[Second Hand Pat]

I would definitely check water maybe if you see others darting in the near future try carbon in the filters, may be toxins. may have just been spooked and hit his head as others say. I think in the other cases the bn got on them after they were down.
Sorry again, seems whenever things are going too good something has to hamper it!

Thank jimg, I have not seem any darting except when I have caused a spook bumping the tank. The fish has passed. I have it here with me and do not see any visible trauma. Any thing I should check?

[roundfishross]

just a thought ....have you checked to see if your tank has any stray voltage making your fish jumpy?

[moon_knight1971]

I lost my 3 inch Dickson Gold 3 days ago :-( I made the mistake of rinsing the sponge media in my AquaClear HOB too much. I performed the water change in the evening and when I woke up in the morning he was dead. None of my other juvies were effected but I did a 80% water change that morning and added Stability to the tank and have been for the last 3 days. Will do so for at least 5 more days. Sorry for your loss SHP

[Second Hand Pat]

just a thought ....have you checked to see if your tank has any stray voltage making your fish jumpy?

Ross, there would have to be something in the tank plugged it, right? The heater and pump are in the sump so seem unlikely.


I lost my 3 inch Dickson Gold 3 days ago :-( I made the mistake of rinsing the sponge media in my AquaClear HOB too much. I performed the water change in the evening and when I woke up in the morning he was dead. None of my other juvies were effected but I did a 80% water change that morning and added Stability to the tank and have been for the last 3 days. Will do so for at least 5 more days. Sorry for your loss SHP

Moon, you think you had an ammonia spike?

[roundfishross]

???? not really sure on that one. would'nt it still conduct?

[Second Hand Pat]

I don't know?? The sump is in the cabinet and pump pumps water up about 5 foot to the tank. Is water a good conductor?

[hawaiidiscus]

from experience, it will still conduct from the sump to the main tank. If you have a multimeter you can check pretty easily - ground one contact and touch the water with the other. check for voltage and amperage. Or cut your nails too short and check that way (also from experience ;-)

[roundfishross]

absolutly!! hence the old proverbial getting electricuted while standing in water...lol

[roundfishross]

yup if you have a hang nail you will get a tingle!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, I can do that but will save the nail trick for later.

Here's a closeup of the face. Look at the pits...HITH and perhaps not minor?

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P4220117.jpg

[TURQ64]

looks like a normal face to me...

[roundfishross]

how soft is your water? I have seen my discus get jumpy when the water was too soft and the ph crashed( checked it at 3.8 or so) had to add coral

[Second Hand Pat]

looks like a normal face to me...

So these are normal? Ok, thought I had something. Any other pictures suggested before the fish goes away.

[Second Hand Pat]

GH, should be about 140? I will go measure that.

[roundfishross]

GH, should be about 140? I will go measure that.

sounds fine mine will crash when around 35 ppm (my typical tap)

[Disgirl]

Sorry to hear Pat. Hope it is a single incident and no more are affected. Gary, is all that pitting on the fish's face normal? I know they have pits, but that many and uneven? Just wondering.
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

Ross, I can go measure it but pretty sure it's about that. I have tested quite a bit since having discus and it's florida well water which is known for it's hardness. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to have the water tested for heavy metals.

[roundfishross]

I would lean toward the voltage thing. are you using any dated equipment? old heaters etc...

always good to know whats in the mix, water tests can never hurt.

[moon_knight1971]

I didn't test my ammonia until yesterday so i'm not sure if I had a spike or not. Levels are good now. I know I killed all the good bacteria that was in my AC HOB. I am running a sponge filter too that has been running as long as the tank (3 months) and I figured rinsing the sponge media in the AC would be ok but guess not. I will also be adding a 2nd sponge inside the AC HOB this weekend so there will always be a back up and i will never rinse them within 2 weeks of each other.

[Second Hand Pat]

I would lean toward the voltage thing. are you using any dated equipment? old heaters etc...

always good to know whats in the mix, water tests can never hurt.

Bingo. Pump and heater I measure about 7 volts in the water. Heater only .3. Pump only about 5.0. Plus the salt I added will make that worst. :( New pump and heater plus BIG WC to remove the salt? Pump is about 18 months old and heater is 6 months old.

[Second Hand Pat]

Moon, sorry to hear that. Hard lesson to learn.

[jimg]

i don't mean to disagree but i think the voltage near the source may be normal, it's the amps that kill. I'm not that great with electric so I may very well be wrong.
I would also think the other fish would be effected too. I had a bad heater and got stings on my arm but the fish were never bothered by it.
My greens always fight and sometimes flip out for no reason when I walk by the tank banging into everything.

[Second Hand Pat]

i don't mean to disagree but i think the voltage near the source may be normal, it's the amps that kill. I'm not that great with electric so I may very well be wrong.
I would also think the other fish would be effected too. I had a bad heater and got stings on my arm but the fish were never bothered by it.
My greens always fight and sometimes flip out for no reason when I walk by the tank banging into everything.

So in talking with the hubby amp and voltage is fairly different. (no expert here). The multimeter can not measure amps. The conversion between the two requires resistance which is an unknown. So where does that leave me?? Maybe not spending 80 bucks replacing a pump.

[roundfishross]

i don't mean to disagree but i think the voltage near the source may be normal, it's the amps that kill. I'm not that great with electric so I may very well be wrong.
I would also think the other fish would be effected too. I had a bad heater and got stings on my arm but the fish were never bothered by it.
My greens always fight and sometimes flip out for no reason when I walk by the tank banging into everything.

Jims probably right, but it wouldnt hurt to have the tank grounded to rule out the problem. ground probes are cheap

[jimg]

Pat one thing i'm curious about.. the eye looks a bit bulged. is this the way it always was?

[Second Hand Pat]

In the first picture. Right? I though so to. I do not recall it looking bulged this morning. Would it still look bulged on fish now?

[jimg]

In the first picture. Right? I though so to. I do not recall it looking bulged this morning. Would it still look bulged on fish now?

Not sure, keep an EYE on the others. Could be from trauma.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jims probably right, but it wouldnt hurt to have the tank grounded to rule out the problem. ground probes are cheap

Place one end of the probe in the water and the other in the ground part of a three way plug?

[Second Hand Pat]

Not sure, keep an EYE on the others. Could be from trauma.

I just looked at the fish and the eye which appears bulged is black, like blood seeped into it. The other eye is normal.

[roundfishross]

Place one end of the probe in the water and the other in the ground part of a three way plug?

yup!http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=aquarium+ground+probe

[Second Hand Pat]

Ya know Ross, sounds like an excellent idea for all the tanks. Good source of protection.

[roundfishross]

Ya know Ross, sounds like an excellent idea for all the tanks. Good source of protection.

certainly!

[jimg]

I just looked at the fish and the eye which appears bulged is black, like blood seeped into it. The other eye is normal.

Hard to tell what happens after they die.
may have nothing at all to do with it but I was talking to John at jehmco about anti biotics one time and he was reading in a medication application book or similar he has that bacteria can enter the nasal cavity and go directly to the brain. Maybe eye bulging is another symptom of what went on...... could be way off but just thinking.

[jimg]

Ya know Ross, sounds like an excellent idea for all the tanks. Good source of protection.

+1 something I always say I will do but never do it! especially as I'm banging into the heaters cleaning the tank

[Second Hand Pat]

I will keep an eye on these guys. Yea, I already broke a heater. It was in one of the aged barrels.

Thanks everyone for all the help. I appreciate it. Time to order some ground probes.

[Eddie]

Pat, its not too uncommon. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with the fish you had which had the scrapes from the plecos. These 2 are not related, guarantee it. Sometimes fish can fall dead, instantly, more than likely internal organ failure. I've actually had a fish do the exact same thing from over feeding Metro flakes, must have destroyed the kidneys. It was a long time ago and I was feeding huge amounts of it, not a mistake I will make again. Something I wanted to ask, how much baby vitamins are you putting in the BH mix?

[Second Hand Pat]

About a drop or two per feeding. Now I defrost the BH mix in a plastic cup with a table spoon or two of RO water and add the drops. I break up the chucks into smaller pieces with a plastic spoon and then pour off the RO water into the sink. I figure some of the vitamins remain in what is left and hopefully not too much.

[Eddie]

About a drop or two per feeding. Now I defrost the BH mix in a plastic cup with a table spoon or two of RO water and add the drops. I break up the chucks into smaller pieces with a plastic spoon and then pour off the RO water into the sink. I figure some of the vitamins remain in what is left and hopefully not too much.

Here's my take on it, I'll just throw this out there because I had an instance not too long ago with one of my Red SS. I fed my normal seafood mix, but I added more vitamins in the mix than I normally would. Fish would have to process those vitamins just as humans do. There are few articles on the matter and I will dig them up but fish can probably overdose on vitamins as well. 1-2 drops of the vitamins you add to the single serving mix may be close to recommended amount per kilo of mix. I'd shy away from dosing individual pieces and add a little amount to whole mix. This is entirely my theory here but it seems very logical to me.

http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=42177

[roundfishross]

I use about two to three full droppers of poly vi-sol liquid infant vitamens per 5lbs of mix. can they be overdone?

[jimg]

That is a lot of vitamin. I use 1/2 tsp poly vi sol per 3 lbs of bh plus 2 vitamin c tabs.

[Eddie]

I use about two to three full droppers of poly vi-sol liquid infant vitamens per 5lbs of mix. can they be overdone?

Thats the thing Leo, nobody has really ever done studies on the amounts of vitamins fish absorb from supplementation. I know Andrew Soh's supplements are recommended at very low quantities. This may be a fail safe but I'll ask him about it. I am sure its possible to overdose vitamins in fish if humans can. You have to think about a fishes system, size, function. They probably need very very little.

2 droppers full to 5lbs sounds pretty average to me but who am I to say. ;) If your fish haven't had any similar issues, I would worry about it.

[Keith Perkins]

Sorry Pat. :(

[Eddie]

That is a lot of vitamin. I use 1/2 tsp poly vi sol per 3 lbs of bh plus 2 vitamin c tabs.

That actually sounds about the same. You figure a half dropper is about 1/2 teaspoon so if Leo uses 1 dropper full, that would yield a little more than you use Jim. But I wouldn't go with 2 dropper fulls per 5 lbs, just to be on the safe side. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry Pat. :(

Thanks Keith,

[Eddie]

Here's a little write-up I've read over the years. Jim Quarles was a great man.

http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6719

Another
http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6718

[Second Hand Pat]

Eddie, I could be over dousing. Problem is the BH mix is already mixed and frozen. Hence the single serving. Could over dosing have caused this problem?

Now I can thaw my last bag and add a 1/2 to 1/4 dropper (around a pound and a half of mix) and refreeze. or just make a new batch.

[jimg]

good read.. I usually went with what I thought were lower amounts for 2 reasons 1 that they need other things I know nothing about to help them absorb and utilize the vitamins i put in and 2 the taste would deter them. I will lower my amounts and rely on the natural foods a little more.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Eddie, both were a good read and the daily addition is a overkill and did not cause issues with this fish as far as I can tell. I will be adding green peas to my next BH mix.

[Eddie]

Eddie, I could be over dousing. Problem is the BH mix is already mixed and frozen. Hence the single serving. Could over dosing have caused this problem?

Now I can thaw my last bag and add a 1/2 to 1/4 dropper (around a pound and a half of mix) and refreeze. or just make a new batch.


Its just a possibility as I have experienced the same, fish go bananas and then keel over and die. If it was liver/kidney failure, that is highly possible it was from overdose of the vitamins. For the time being, I'd almost skip any vitamins until you make your next mix, just to be safe.

[Second Hand Pat]

So it could happen in a very short time frame? It's been about three weeks.

I will be glad when I am no longer a novice.

[roundfishross]

Here's a little write-up I've read over the years. Jim Quarles was a great man.

http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6719

Another
http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6718

Ahh, I see! very good read. looking back I am probably making more like 8lbs or so. and I do add extre calcium because the baby vites dont contain any. basically using Soh';s recipe tweaked a little. will cut back on the vites a little, although on the pro labels it claims it ok at 10x dosage for extended periods....???????

[Eddie]

So it could happen in a very short time frame? It's been about three weeks.

I will be glad when I am no longer a novice.

Oh, I am sure it could, even sooner that.


Ahh, I see! very good read. looking back I am probably making more like 8lbs or so. and I do add extre calcium because the baby vites dont contain any. basically using Soh';s recipe tweaked a little. will cut back on the vites a little, although on the pro labels it claims it ok at 10x dosage for extended periods....???????

Yeah, I wouldn't, just to play it safe. I mean each individual fish may be affected differently, some not at all but the occasional death is more than I would like.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks jimg, roundfishross and Eddie, I appreciate the help, did order the probes and will leave the vitamins out for now. Sigh...live and learn.

[Eddie]

Keep your chin up, we all are, every day. Sorry for the loss but we can always try to avoid another one.

All the best,

Eddie

[Discus Origins]

Sorry about your loss Pat, always tough when a healthy appearing fish takes a turn for the worse. Could be vitamins, could be voltage, could be water source but that should have affected all the fish not just the one.

Hopefully it was an internal problem specific to that one fish and not affect the others.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Gary, Jim, Jay, YSS, Lizz, Leo, Moon, hawaiidiscus, Barb, Eddie, Keith and Mark. I appreciate the concerns and help. Hope I did not miss anyone. Thanks Pat


Keep your chin up, we all are, every day. Sorry for the loss but we can always try to avoid another one.

All the best,

Eddie

Totally

[Jennie]

if voltage , why only one fish affected? makes no sense to me?

[Second Hand Pat]

It's not voltage Jennie. But I do understand why the mag drive pump trip the GFI.

[Keith Perkins]

I'd keep an eye on that GFI outlet Pat. Sometimes they just start tripping, indicating the outlet is going bad. As good as a safety feature as GFI outlets are, I didn't put any in my fishcave for fear one day one would fail without me noticing.

I hate losing fish!

[Second Hand Pat]

I'd keep an eye on that GFI outlet Pat. Sometimes they just start tripping, indicating the outlet is going bad. As good as a safety feature as GFI outlets are, I didn't put any in my fishcave for fear one day one would fail without me noticing.

I hate losing fish!

Keith, I hate losing fish too. I'm wondering if my death rate is a bit high considering the short time I have had those guys. :( Or do most discus keepers go through this.

On the GFI, my mag drive pumps always trips them and none of my tanks are on or inline with one either. They trip way too easy.

[Keith Perkins]

Keith, I hate losing fish too. I'm wondering if my death rate is a bit high considering the short time I have had those guys. :( Or do most discus keepers go through this...

Of course you're thinking your death rate might be high, you've probably thought a hundred other things at this point too. Losing a couple of fish without any idea why will do that to you. No idea what happened with your first fish, but I'm pretty sure there was NOTHING you could have done with this recent one. Seems like some strange internal abnormality just decided to rear it's ugly head. Anyone who's kept discus for any length of time has had it happen from time to time. A couple in a relatively short time I'd say was just a poor luck of the draw.

[Dave B]

Pat, you've lost two out of a whole bunch of fish that you've gotten, and we're nearing 6 months (I think, right?). Do you have any idea how many people turn over damn near 100% of their stock in the first few months when they start out? You're among a lot of very experienced and educated people here, the best of the best, and you're obsessing and learning and providing great care. Not all of us can be Eddie right away, and some fish deaths are freak occurrences just like some people deaths are. Don't beat yourself up over it. All your other fish are getting excellent care.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, you've lost two out of a whole bunch of fish that you've gotten, and we're nearing 6 months (I think, right?). Do you have any idea how many people turn over damn near 100% of their stock in the first few months when they start out? You're among a lot of very experienced and educated people here, the best of the best, and you're obsessing and learning and providing great care. Not all of us can be Eddie right away, and some fish deaths are freak occurrences just like some people deaths are. Don't beat yourself up over it. All your other fish are getting excellent care.

Thanks Dave, coming up on five months now. I just hate losing a fish and not knowing why. The next day after losing this Alenquer I noticed the tefes were all clamped up and a couple a bit off color. I did a 40% WC and no changes. Thinking a contaminate I cleaning all the WC hoses and WC barrels and setup to do a BIG WC on the tefes tank. Four hours (areate and heat water) later I did a 75% WC and had a decent improvement on all the tefes. Yesterday the tefes were back to normal.

My WC barrels were dirty. They had a brown scum coating the side and bottom. Hard to see until I wiped with a white paper towel. Could this have been the cause of the Alenquer's death? Maybe something like Jim mentions below. Either way I will be watching and cleaning those WC barrels etc. way more often.


Hard to tell what happens after they die.
may have nothing at all to do with it but I was talking to John at jehmco about anti biotics one time and he was reading in a medication application book or similar he has that bacteria can enter the nasal cavity and go directly to the brain. Maybe eye bulging is another symptom of what went on...... could be way off but just thinking.

[TURQ64]

Hmmm, I don't like the possibilities inside 'brown scum'....some brown scum is ferric; iron...bad juju for fishes...

[Second Hand Pat]

That is way I think testing the water might be a good idea. Gary, anyway of testing this myself or this a job for a water testing company?

[Harriett]

Pat,
Ditto on the learning curve losses--you are incredibly ahead of the pack on the LOW number of losses you have encountred since you first started keeping discus. The normal, honest, is so much higher for about a year or two. There is a lot to learn and you are doing fine. It is expected that there will be a loss here or there, it just happens. Good to check out the paremeters you are working on--the voltage thing may have just reached 'clnical level' and that particular fish was the most vulnerable individual and so reacted first--neurologically, they start acting nuts and slam around, causing more injury and if they hit something hard enough, they damage their teeny tiny brains and that's that. Or, something in the tank coulda spooked him and he took off, then slammed into the wall and so forth--who knows. Sometimes you cannot figure it out and you just move forward. It's all part of the continuing education over the years, you know how that works!
Vitamin wise, the following vitamins are FAT soluable and so you can overdose: D, E, A, K. the rest are WATER soluable so generally speaking, the fish just pee out the extra. [So do humans]. C in higher doeses can bloat them.
Hats off to your investigative spirit, that's what you need.
Best luck, girlie girl!!!
H

[jaykne]

Sorry to hear this Pat, but the are fish and no matter how hard you work things happen!!! Don't take it hard, you learn more and more everyday my friend!!! Soon you will be an expert;)!!!

[Cuchulainn]

Very sorry to hear this Pat.
Question. Do you know what caused the white marks on the fish, and were they there when the discus was still alive?

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat,
Ditto on the learning curve losses--you are incredibly ahead of the pack on the LOW number of losses you have encountred since you first started keeping discus. The normal, honest, is so much higher for about a year or two. There is a lot to learn and you are doing fine. It is expected that there will be a loss here or there, it just happens. Good to check out the paremeters you are working on--the voltage thing may have just reached 'clnical level' and that particular fish was the most vulnerable individual and so reacted first--neurologically, they start acting nuts and slam around, causing more injury and if they hit something hard enough, they damage their teeny tiny brains and that's that. Or, something in the tank coulda spooked him and he took off, then slammed into the wall and so forth--who knows. Sometimes you cannot figure it out and you just move forward. It's all part of the continuing education over the years, you know how that works!
Vitamin wise, the following vitamins are FAT soluable and so you can overdose: D, E, A, K. the rest are WATER soluable so generally speaking, the fish just pee out the extra. [So do humans]. C in higher doeses can bloat them.
Hats off to your investigative spirit, that's what you need.
Best luck, girlie girl!!!
H


Sorry to hear this Pat, but the are fish and no matter how hard you work things happen!!! Don't take it hard, you learn more and more everyday my friend!!! Soon you will be an expert;)!!!

Thanks Harriett and Larry, appreciate the kind words. I do allow these deaths to bother me to remind me to keep looking for possible issues. I do believe Gary pointed to a possible issue with the "brown scum" I cleaned out of the WC barrels. Florida wells are known for having iron issues. On a positive note the tefes responded beautifully to the cleaned up WC barrels. Tonight they are their beautiful, hungry, begging, normal selves.

So far as the death of the Alenquer, not really sure about that.

[Eddie]

Its nothing to worry about, just enjoy your fish. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Very sorry to hear this Pat.
Question. Do you know what caused the white marks on the fish, and were they there when the discus was still alive?

Hey Cuchulainn, I do not know what caused the whitest marks on the fish. When I first saw the fish in trouble the back two thirds of the body were dark. Just prior to death those whitest marks were visible. If you are thinking injury here is a close up of those marks. The scales do not look disturbed to me.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Dead%20Discus/close_up.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Its nothing to worry about, just enjoy your fish. ;)

Eddie, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Eddie]

Eddie, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Definitely, the first fish was/is completely fine. You had a freak death, it happens.

[Second Hand Pat]

Taking Eddie's advise and took these tonight. I feel a whole lot better. Not the place for these, oh well.

Nhamunda Reds in the home tank.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P4250138.jpg

Uatuma blues and Alenquers tank.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P4250137.jpg

Tefes still in the QT. Looking for them a 180.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P4250132.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P4250130.jpg

[Eddie]

Tefes look a million times better from the clean water. Love the Uatuma blues and Alenquers tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tefes look a million times better from the clean water. Love the Uatuma blues and Alenquers tank.

Big change in the tefes. They looked this good Sun after my Sat night scare. I love the Uatuma blues and Alenquers tank too. Those are some lovely fish. That tank got a huge WC last night.

[Eddie]

When they breed, I want some! ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

When they breed, I want some! ;)

You get first choice. ;) Better start working on that RO system.

[Cuchulainn]

Wow Pat, you have a beautiful collection of Discus there-great pics! ;)
In regards to the white spots in the poor fella that didn't make it, I thought they looked odd, and was just curious what would of caused them.

[Harriett]

They all look wonderful, really nice collection. Yup, a good example for a learning curve issue: when you empty the water changing barrels, [or horse troughs], wipe them down on a regular basis, then rinse them out well. SCUM is not a word you ever want in a sentance with DISCUS, as you know, LOL! I think it's behind you now, kiddo. PLZ put me down on the fry list right under Eddie, ok?
Best,
H

[Second Hand Pat]

Wow Pat, you have a beautiful collection of Discus there-great pics! ;)
In regards to the white spots in the poor fella that didn't make it, I thought they looked odd, and was just curious what would of caused them.

Thanks Cuchulainn, on the white spots...any thoughts?


They all look wonderful, really nice collection. Yup, a good example for a learning curve issue: when you empty the water changing barrels, [or horse troughs], wipe them down on a regular basis, then rinse them out well. SCUM is not a word you ever want in a sentance with DISCUS, as you know, LOL! I think it's behind you now, kiddo. PLZ put me down on the fry list right under Eddie, ok?
Best,
H

Thanks Harriett, those WC barrels are definitely on the chore list and consider yourself on the list if I ever get that lucky.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am very sad to report that I'm losing the smaller Uatuma blue which is in the same tank as the Alenquer I lost and created this thread for. Symptoms are the same and again very sudden. The fish is still breathing and I pulled it from the tank into a bucket of clean water with an air stone as a last ditch effort. I'm about 2 hours from being able to do a WC on the tank itself.

I'm thinking there is a water issue with my well water, perhaps iron like Gary allured to. I'm not however having issues with the other tanks. Maybe toxin in this particular tank? :( Very sad tonight.

[jpdevol]

Pat - if you have some Methelyne Blue on hand, add .5ml per gallon to the bucket. It will help with O2 uptake into the blood and cells as well as knock-back many bacteria and fungi.

[Second Hand Pat]

JP, that was the second thought I had after moving the fish over and I do not have any MB. I have seen you recommend it enough and will be pick some up tomorrow. Also does the container have a way to measure in ml? or can an empty syringe be used? I checked the fish a little while ago and it has passed.

[strawberryblonde]

Oh no! I'm so sorry Pat, you have such beautiful fish.

SB

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks SB, make me sick. Trying to google iron poisoning on the web but not finding much. Another thought is replacing the WC barrel I'm using since I'm not seeing issues in the other tanks.

[Disgirl]

Very sorry to hear this Pat. Discus can bring us such joy as well as pain. Hang in there.
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Barb, I will hang in there and figure this out one way or another.

[jpdevol]

JP, that was the second thought I had after moving the fish over and I do not have any MB. I have seen you recommend it enough and will be pick some up tomorrow. Also does the container have a way to measure in ml? or can an empty syringe be used? I checked the fish a little while ago and it has passed.

Sorry for your loss Pat.

Kordon's is the most available MB and it has no dropper. I use a syringe graduated in .10ml (I think I got it from meds when one of the kids was sick).

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks JP, any thoughts on where I should go with this other than having the water tested for metals and replacing the wc barrel?

[jpdevol]

Not yet Dear - sorry - incidental sudden death as you're experiencing is at the "edge of the envelope" regarding the usual guesswork invloved in diagnosis/treatment. I'll review again, but food and water are the primary suspects. I'd advise a microscpe , but they too are often inconclusive in such circumstances,

[Keith Perkins]

Sorry again Pat. They are such awesome fish.

[Sean Buehrle]

pat

sorry you lost that fish. you have some nice fish.

I took one out of my tank today because it was in such poor shape and have plans on going to toysrus and buying a microscope just so i can see whats in its intestines.

I cant help it, i want to know whats killin em. do you have any plans on doing anything similar with yours just in case its something in thier bellies thats doing this?.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry again Pat. They are such awesome fish.

Thanks Keith and thanks for the suggestion.


Not yet Dear - sorry - incidental sudden death as you're experiencing is at the "edge of the envelope" regarding the usual guesswork invloved in diagnosis/treatment. I'll review again, but food and water are the primary suspects. I'd advise a microscpe , but they too are often inconclusive in such circumstances,

Thanks JP, Please holler back if you think of anything. I do not want to be at the "edge of the envelope" :(


pat

sorry you lost that fish. you have some nice fish.

I took one out of my tank today because it was in such poor shape and have plans on going to toysrus and buying a microscope just so i can see whats in its intestines.

I cant help it, i want to know whats killin em. do you have any plans on doing anything similar with yours just in case its something in thier bellies thats doing this?.

Thanks seanbuehrle, I do have a scope. Culling one of the currently healthy fish in the tank now would may me sick. BUT if one of them goes down like the two previously then scoping is an excellent idea and hopefully not inconclusive. So guess skin, intestines and poop? Also will be testing the water with a water testing company.

[Eddie]

Wow Pat, something surely up. Can you move the fish to another tank (not one with unaffected fish).

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Eddie, fish already passed. Very quick like the alenquer. I did move it to a bucket with clean water and a air stone but was too late.:(

[Eddie]

Ouch, strange that they are passing so quickly, intoxication of some sort, be in food or water.

[Second Hand Pat]

Eddie, I'm targeting two approaches. Since one tank is primary affected I am replacing it's WC barrel. Second going to have the water professionally tested for metals. I suspect it's not food related as that has not changed since I started nor have I introduced any new foods.

[TURQ64]

Wow, Pat..I didn't see this yesterday..bummer, amigo. I looked around, and they do have DIY iron test kits, but at this point, a definitive look at your water by pro's sounds like the first new line of defense...
can you get some water from the barrell you are replacing tested?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Gary, on course I can. If it is the WC barrel I would want to test all of them so a DIY test might be in order. All my WC barrels are the brute rubber made, two 44 and one 33.

[TURQ64]

I was thinking more along the line of testing the water that went to the exact tank. It could be some strange relationship between the well water and the barrell composition..or just the water chemistry..around here, you could never keep Discus from personal well water....it's very 'colorful', but gross! good luck with the investigation..

[Second Hand Pat]

You mean a water sample from the the barrel prior to the death of the fish? If that is what you mean I turn water over too quickly for that.

[Second Hand Pat]

Adam (aalbina) was kind enough to offer me his iron test which I happily accepted. In exchange I will be making a donation to SD tonight. Thanks Adam.

In the meantime I have called around and so far the testing companies want to stop by, collect a sample and only test for bacteria only (four types). In Florida if you buy a house with a well the lender generally requires this test. So far this test is around $200. Additionally tests for mercury is $85 and the magnesium is $95. Ouch.

For the short term I'm replacing the one WC barrel and reducing it's role to a trash can. Today hubby bought home two additional 34 gallon cheap joe ones and honestly I'm very leery of using them. Wonder if they could be tested by allowing to sit with water and is if any brown scum develops.

[jpdevol]

Pool suppliers are pretty good at testing for metals. Unknown containers are a bit scary.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pool suppliers are pretty good at testing for metals. Unknown containers are a bit scary.

Great idea, give them a call tomorrow. Agreed on the unknown containers. Might exchange them for what I want.

[YSS]

May be try skipping aging water. Many on the forum do not age water and do fine. Not sure if you had a reason for aging. Do you have well water? If so, then no real need for aging.

[Second Hand Pat]

YSS, I do have well water and the ph goes from 7.4 to 8.2 in four hours with aeration.

[Keith Perkins]

Yea, Ph bounce is one of the biggies for aging H2O. In city water vaping of chlorine is another.

[nc0gnet0]

Pat,

How may other tanks do you have? Is the water change regimine exacty the same? It's very odd that if it is indeed a water issue, that none of the other tanks are having issues. Even the progression of the deaths seems a bit off for it to be a water issue. Proceeding with water testing is still a good idea, but, I wouldn't rule out other prossible causes at this point.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Rick, I have two other tanks. Different locations in the house. WC and feeding schedule is the same across all three. The location of this tank is in the familyroom and is the only tank with an egg crate top vs a glass top. We do not spray anything around the tank, thinking airborne pollutants. This room also has a parrot. So differenences are location and WC barrel. So that is why I am targeting the WC barrel. Docorations in the tank is sand and wood. Wood source is PC1. What.am I missing?
Pat

[nc0gnet0]

How were they handling the traffic of being in the family room?

[jcardona1]

Wow Pat very sorry to see this, especially two fish! That's really bizarre. Makes me nervous about my aging barrel now!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Rick, they actually handle the traffic in the family room pretty good. However since the group is only 3 now, they are a bit more spooky. When one of the fish do spook I just slow my movements and let the group settle. There are only 2 of us in the house. I will be adding to the group with the group I have in the QT.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jose, I would suggest rinsing and wiping your barrels out once a week. Less often with RO barrels.

[nc0gnet0]

So, you use different aging barrels for each of your tanks?

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes, I have two water changing stations. One in the closet in my utility room which is a 44 gallon and one in a workshop beside the garage which has a 44 and 33 gallons. The 44 gallon is the one used on the tank in the family room.

[nc0gnet0]

The problem is, with an issue like this you may never really know the cause. You need to start compiling a list of possible culprits, starting from the most likely to least likely possibilities. It appears to be something unique to this tank. Maybe the barrel, the wood, even the sand are possible causes, if it is indeed a contaminate issue. The water itself would be much further done the list, as to date, none of your other tanks are having issues.

It also seems to occur much to quickly to be a parasite, and even most (not all) bacterial issues. IMO, the most likely scenario is organ failure. And to make things even more difficult, the possibilty exists that the fish may have been pre-destined to have this happen, and nothing you are doing could have changed this. Have you added AC like was suggested a few pages ago?

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, AC? I read back and didn't see a reference. Are you referring to moon talking about adding a sponge to his AC? or activated carbon? found no reference to that either.

[nc0gnet0]

Activated Carbon, to remove any possible contaminates.

[Second Hand Pat]

Activated Carbon, to remove any possible contaminates.

Thanks Rick, so one of the Alenquers had a panic attack a short time ago and I instantly did a 60% WC and waiting for it's breathing to return to normal. No panic attacks since the WC. Also thinking back the other two fish passed when the tank was due of a WC and true this morning too. For me this implies a toxic build up in the tank between WCs and I lose a fish if I allow the WC to happen on the third day (as opposed to the second).


The problem is, with an issue like this you may never really know the cause. You need to start compiling a list of possible culprits, starting from the most likely to least likely possibilities. It appears to be something unique to this tank. Maybe the barrel, the wood, even the sand are possible causes, if it is indeed a contaminate issue. The water itself would be much further done the list, as to date, none of your other tanks are having issues.

It also seems to occur much to quickly to be a parasite, and even most (not all) bacterial issues. IMO, the most likely scenario is organ failure. And to make things even more difficult, the possibilty exists that the fish may have been pre-destined to have this happen, and nothing you are doing could have changed this. Have you added AC like was suggested a few pages ago?

So Rich, believe you are right with your post above. Once the fish relax I'm removing the last thing I placed in the tank which was a piece of wood. Also preparing a larger WC for later today.

[Second Hand Pat]

I did another WC tonight, about 80% and removed the piece of wood which was the newest item in the tank. The fish is still unsettled so will see what the morning brings. I hope I am on the right track.

[Second Hand Pat]

So this morning things are about the same. The affected Alenquer has good color, showing a little bar (the Uatuama blue is showing same amount of bar, the other Alenquer none). The affected Alenquer is pacing the glass so still seems unsettled to me. Perhaps removing half the wood could cause pacing also? (don't think so). All three fish did eat flake this morning so that was nice to see.

So wait and see.

[Eddie]

At this point, I'd eliminate all possibilities and transfer the fish to a quarantine tank.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

Eddie, thinking contaminates?

[Eddie]

That would rule all things out, yes.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, finally some real symbols. Tonight the Alenquer went darting quickly all over the tank and then went to surface of the water next to the wood breathing heavy. I have moved it to the QT. It will come up to me and is eating. It is showing bars and fins are very spread out. Looks uptight. I will go get a picture now.

The darkest in the tail and fins is not normal for this fish.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT2.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT1.jpg

[jpdevol]

Sorry Pat, I cannot see anything in the photos other than a very nice looking albeit "uptight" Discus:confused:

Let's hope that the move to QT brings a change and perhaps a clue.

[Eddie]

So the fish is better now, in QT?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[TURQ64]

Pat, did you ever venture into testing your well water for iron, etc??...The reason I ask is that our water coop has been pumping from a different set of wells than usual, and I'm getting Iron like I've never had before..Having to change R/O prefilters monthly instead of every three or four months.....I'm still out on the source on your wild guys..

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Eddie, so far it looks the same as last night. Breathing is normal.

[Eddie]

But is it flipping out?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

But is it flipping out?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Nope, not that I'm seen. I only saw it "flip out" twice in the other tank over a several day period.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, did you ever venture into testing your well water for iron, etc??...The reason I ask is that our water coop has been pumping from a different set of wells than usual, and I'm getting Iron like I've never had before..Having to change R/O prefilters monthly instead of every three or four months.....I'm still out on the source on your wild guys..

Gary, my well is my personal well on my own property so water source has not changed. I received the iron test a few days ago but have not tested the water yet. I was focusing on a single tank issue vs a overall water issue.

[Eddie]

So while in qt it's not reacting abnormally. Seems something in the other tank is toxic or affecting the fish.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

So while in qt it's not reacting abnormally. Seems something in the other tank is toxic or affecting the fish.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Correct so far, but it has only been in QT for 12 hours or so. Would guess more observation time of the fish in QT to verify the toxic tank idea is warranted.

I stand corrected, Just talked with hubby and this morning he observed the darting "flipping out" in the QT also.

[Second Hand Pat]

I stand corrected, Just talked with hubby and this morning he observed the darting "flipping out" in the QT also.

[TURQ64]

Well, I'm hoping for the best, and something simple for you, but I'm suspect of the well as is....I know your's is 'yours'....Gary

[Second Hand Pat]

That would bite big time Gary if so.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, some news. Not sure what it means. Asked hubby to keep an eye on the Alenquer through the day. No "flipped out" behavior. Tested the water for iron. Totally no iron in the water. Her's a picture of the fish and the iron test. The fish is still showing bars and a little darkest in the tank. I believe the darkest has lessen. On the iron test, the two samples shown the QT is on the right and the Alenquer's tank on the left.

[TURQ64]

Well, (no pun intended!)..looks like the well's up to snuff according to the test, but...jeesh, now what?

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, (no pun intended!)..looks like the well's up to snuff according to the test, but...jeesh, now what?

Great question Gary, The tank that has a problem was my reef tank and had no problem with it, the sump or the pump. New items for the tank include sand and wood. I have cleaned the sump and removed the last piece of wood added to the tank. I'm removing the last piece of wood tonight and replace it with a new piece. If this doesn't work I guess the tank goes to the trash man.

Here's a video of the fish eating FDBWs. It has a good appetite.


http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/?action=view&current=VIDEO0020.mp4

[TURQ64]

Well, some of my 29's were badly treated frag tanks, and they work fine......don't trash the tank; it's just glass.............

[Ed13]

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT1.jpg

Haven't had a chance to read through the thread, but is that a scrape above it's eye or is it pitting? Sort of looks like a group of odd scales.

[Second Hand Pat]

After I do the above and the problem is not solved what the heck is the next step. Aggrrrrrrr...............:mad: On the bright side I do believe I have saved this fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Ed, it's a scrape from the mad dash made around the tank. It had a smaller scape on the other side near the bottom of the fish and that seems have healed.

[Ed13]

Hey Ed, it's a scrape from the mad dash made around the tank. It had a smaller scape on the other side near the bottom of the fish and that seems have healed.

Thought so.

Again, I haven't read through the whole thread, but if your doubting your water source I'd look into running it through sediment and carbon filters before aging and heavily aerating. To me it's a worth it, regardless.

Hope you can get them through this and find the answers you need Pat.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, I know nothing about the general pattern and look of this fish, so I might be seeing something that's normal, but....

Do the other fish have those little black spots on their fins? They don't look particularly raised or bumpy, but if I remember correctly, black spots (on fish who aren't supposed to have them) can be a bacterial infection. There's also a parasite that presents as black spots, but I believe that's a marine parasite and not freshwater.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thought so.

Again, I haven't read through the whole thread, but if your doubting your water source I'd look into running it through sediment and carbon filters before aging and heavily aerating. To me it's a worth it, regardless.

Hope you can get them through this and find the answers you need Pat.

Thanks Ed, I'm actually planning on getting an RO unit for the wilds. Hubby and I are discussing the best place for it. Couple of engineers trying to make decisions. :)


Ok, I know nothing about the general pattern and look of this fish, so I might be seeing something that's normal, but....

Do the other fish have those little black spots on their fins? They don't look particularly raised or bumpy, but if I remember correctly, black spots (on fish who aren't supposed to have them) can be a bacterial infection. There's also a parasite that presents as black spots, but I believe that's a marine parasite and not freshwater.

Hey Toni, this fish is a wild Alenquer. Black dots in the tail can be shown when the fish is in an emotional (stressed, mad, perhaps horny) state or just as a manner of course. This particular fish is stressed as it generally shows a clear tail. I'm hoping to see the blackness in the tail disappear over the next couple of days. If it does I believe I will be on the right course with this guy.

[aalbina]

?...but if your doubting your water source I'd look into running it through sediment and carbon filters before aging and heavily aerating....

This is exactly what I do now. Chased the heavy metal issue for too long. Had the water tested at a lab and showed nothing known to be toxic at the levels the sample contained. I eventually determined that it must be episodic or event driven. I isolated one event but that didn't explain the random re-occurrences. Must be something going on under ground with my wells ( I have two) - so I went with sediment and multiple carbon blocks before the water hits my aging tank for heating and aeration for 24 hours. All has been well for almost a year.

If all is well now Pat - it could have just been an event. Your diligence and awareness saved this fish. If you hadn't been so on top of this - you may have lost more. The truth is you may never know what happened. Not knowing is what drove me to my current setup. I may not need it - but I sleep better and I'm not constantly eagle eyeing the fish.

Adam

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Adam, I'm not out of the woods yet but hopefully close. I have lost two fish and I'm bound and determined to not lose anther and yup, eagle eyeing those fish lol.

So just for fun. Is the house water run through the sediment and multiple carbon blocks filters. Or they separate and only for the WC water?

[jpdevol]

I have a dedicated filter on the utility sink that runs my Python. Attached are links from the supplier in MI that I use and may give you an idea of the types of filters possible; the third link is a SD sponsor in FL that has some nice RO units.
http://www.thewaterexchange.net/well-water-filters.htm

http://www.thewaterexchange.net/build-your-own-under-counter-filter.htm

http://www.eliteaquaria.com/Discus_RO_Units_s/44.htm

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jeff? for the links. I will check then out. Pat

[Ed13]

Thanks Adam, I'm not out of the woods yet but hopefully close. I have lost two fish and I'm bound and determined to not lose anther and yup, eagle eyeing those fish lol.

So just for fun. Is the house water run through the sediment and multiple carbon blocks filters. Or they separate and only for the WC water?

There are wholehouse units and dedicated independent units. I'd suggest an idependent unit for your fish regardless, since it won't work as hard and it'll be easier to keep track of. There are even cool little timers in order to indicate when to change the filters, some are time based and some very cool ones actually measure the gallons used.

[TURQ64]

The problem with the pre-filters is that they don't get all of the heavies, just the easy crap..That's why R/O membranes were developed...I'd stick with R/O since we're talking wild strains...JMO, but I have tried just prefiltering, and it didn't give me the results I was seeking...R/O, R/O, R/O your boat, gently down the stream....there's a lot more R/O users than you might think, but many are still in the closet 'cuz they can't take the flack....Gary

[Second Hand Pat]

Had another mad dash from this fish this morning but seems like there is less darkest in the tail. Hopefully the fish is slowly becoming detoxified in the QT.

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat......been following the thread and you need to clean the barrel perhaps use 37% H2o2 to sterilize it.

[aalbina]

...So just for fun. Is the house water run through the sediment and multiple carbon blocks filters. Or they separate and only for the WC water?

They are separate, Pat. I have filters on the house water after the well heads but I pull the WC water directly from the well head so they need to be separate. I also don't use carbon on the house water just sediment - we have carbon filtration at the sinks and in the fridge for drinking water.

[Second Hand Pat]

There are wholehouse units and dedicated independent units. I'd suggest an idependent unit for your fish regardless, since it won't work as hard and it'll be easier to keep track of. There are even cool little timers in order to indicate when to change the filters, some are time based and some very cool ones actually measure the gallons used.

Thanks Ed, will definitely be a dedicated unit for the fishes. Currently using the "house" RO unit for the WCs and that becomes a bucket operation :(


The problem with the pre-filters is that they don't get all of the heavies, just the easy crap..That's why R/O membranes were developed...I'd stick with R/O since we're talking wild strains...JMO, but I have tried just prefiltering, and it didn't give me the results I was seeking...R/O, R/O, R/O your boat, gently down the stream....there's a lot more R/O users than you might think, but many are still in the closet 'cuz they can't take the flack....Gary

True Gary, since all my fishes are wilds RO it is.


Hi Pat......been following the thread and you need to clean the barrel perhaps use 37% H2o2 to sterilize it.

Thanks Seanyuki, Many uses for HP :)


They are separate, Pat. I have filters on the house water after the well heads but I pull the WC water directly from the well head so they need to be separate. I also don't use carbon on the house water just sediment - we have carbon filtration at the sinks and in the fridge for drinking water.

Thanks Adam.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Gary, Would you mind posting your ebay RO unit link here? Thanks Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I was hoping to see an improved fish arriving home from work. Instead walked in on the tail end of a mad dash :( This fish is going to bash it's head in at this rate. So captured a video (below) of a stressed, hard breathing fish. I intend to do a salt dip on this guy during my water change. 2 tablespoon per gallon ( bucket for up to 30 min or until the fish rolls with airstone ). Thought here is to use the dip as a parasiticide. Am I shotgunning, yup. Open to any/all ideas.


http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/?action=view&current=VIDEO0023.mp4

[Second Hand Pat]

Instead of doing a salt dip I decided to do partly what John Sr (snookn21) suggested. He suggested dosing (normal not epsom) salt at 1 cup per 15 gallons or about a tablespoon per gallon. Last night I dosed half of that ( 2 cups (16 tablespoon per cup) in a 75 (~half tablespoon per gallon) ) and I monitored the tank for a couple hours.

This morning I did not observe a mad dash of the Alenquer and after talking with John just now I will do a full dose for three days starting tonight. Basically treating for externals. I'm hoping for improvement so crossing all body parts. Note that this is being used on wilds.

Also while talking with John he mentioned that he has had discus do exactly what is happening with my fish. A mad dash and dead a few hours later. :( He has no clue to the cause of this.

[Darrell Ward]

I just saw this thread, and didn't read the whole thing, but sounds like you have a "cursed tank". Before you write me off as crazy, I'll explain. I once had a tank that I had far too many unexplained deaths in. It seemed almost every fish I put in this tank died at some point for absolutely no reason. I don't know, but I think some material that the tank or the decor was made from was a bit toxic, and any fish placed in this tank was on "death row". I finally tore down this tank, and gave it to a kid to keep a snake in. I set up a different tank in the exact spot, on the same stand, and never had another unexplained death in that room.

[Second Hand Pat]

Darrel, I do not disagree, BUT the tank was used sucessfully as a reef tank prior to being remade as a discus tank AND I will replace this tank if needed and place a skull and cross bones sticker on the tank. :)

[TURQ64]

I will replace this tank if needed and place a skull and cross bones sticker on the tank. :)

Hey, I'd be steerin' a wide course on whose trademark ye be infringin' on, there, matey!

[Second Hand Pat]

What, not willing to share :)

[Sean Buehrle]

Hey Gary, Would you mind posting your ebay RO unit link here? Thanks Pat

You might want to check these guys out too. The fish club in my area has a few people who have purchased from them and they are good units.

http://www.purewaterclub.com/

I had a cheap water general from ebay and it was a good unit, I just added a DI chamber.

If you decide to go with a DI too, I suggest you buy a seperate DI housing to run in line. All RO/DI units are the same IMO. some just look cool, but cost an arm and a leg.

And dont ever trust a carbon block to remove chlorine and chloramine, Ive tested 0 tds water and it had chlorine in it several times. it especially happens in High output units.

your using well water right?, is there anyone else on your well too that could have shocked it lately? Even someone thats not on your well could have shocked thiers and seepage could be getting into your well.

If your not sure, Get a test kit for chlorine and test it. Just a thought.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks seanbuehrle, I will check them out. I suppose checking for chlorine couldn't hurt but have never heard of anyone shocking their well. Only their pool. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Started the full dose salt treatment tonight. Also felt like I was mixing salt for the reef tank. I even have a bag of marine salt so using that. The mad dashes around the tank seem to have stopped. If this works I will be dosing the suspect tank come Monday.

[Sean Buehrle]

Thanks seanbuehrle, I will check them out. I suppose checking for chlorine couldn't hurt but have never heard of anyone shocking their well. Only their pool. ;)

http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/PDF/HACE-858-4.pdf

happens all the time, especially around flood time.

[Second Hand Pat]

It's the second day of salt treatment and seeing improvements today in the Alenquer; it's bars are starting to not be visible, has quit glass surfing and started to eat flake. :) relieved sigh.

I will post some pics later when photo bucket is available.

[jpdevol]

Great news!

[Second Hand Pat]

Well guys, I think I have figured out what I have been doing WRONG. I have a 50 foot python which I use to fill my WC barrels. I use this python every 24 to 48 hours to fill my WC barrels. I realized while cleaning the silly thing that I DO NOT FLUSH the python prior to filling the WC barrel so the first WC barrel gets a nasty load of bacteria. Guess which WC barrel is always first. The one used to fill the Alenquer/U. blue tank and the suspect tank. Tank is fine. It's the idiot running the python who is filling the tank with a nasty cocktail of bacteria overload. Damn newbie.

So here is a picture and a video. Forgive the tank. Needs a vac.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/IMAG0170.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/th_VIDEO0025.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/?action=view&current=VIDEO0025.mp4)

[Keith Perkins]

Hmm, that's interesting if you're right. I've never flushed my pump outflow line before using it, but I don't routinely do WCs on the same tank first either...I don't think.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hmm, that's interesting if you're right. I've never flushed my pump outflow line before using it, but I don't routinely do WCs on the same tank first either...I don't think.

Keith, my house runs about 78 now that the warm weather has started and the room where I keep the hoses runs a degree or two warmer with the water heater in there. My problems started April 22 which is about when it warmed up here. Still sound far fetched? I hope this is it but shall see.

[Keith Perkins]

I wasn't saying anything like it sounded far fetched to me, more like I was hoping you had indeed finally figured out what was going on. I know you've been racking your brain trying to figure it out. My basement is obviously a lot colder than 78 and between that, not always going to the same place first with the water, and not having wilds I've just fortunately never experienced anything like that. Fingers crossed for you.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Keith, lets hope. I goggled bacteria poisoning and found nothing. Some others may chime in and say I have rocks in my head. I rather get it on the table as a possible issue and maybe discussion.

[roundfishross]

hey Pat, I try to bleach my hoses at least every other week to keep them from getting funky mildew inside.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Leo, bleach is definitely the right answer especially for that black mold.

So my discus honeymoon is over. Had a N. red do the mad dash in the home tank. Now that tank is brined. Anyone for marine discus. :( So I have cross contaminated myself. Ugh. If the salt treatment does not do the deed what the heck is the next step. Straight up RO. Hopefully if my bacteria theory has any validity then I have found the long term solution if I can get through the next week. Open to any suggestions/ideas here folks.

Anyone hear about sulfur bacteria?

[jpdevol]

Yikes - I had not heard of "SRB" until you posted it, but it could be a possibility and one you would want to eliminate.
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/sulferb.pdf and a slew of others too. Apparently a somewhat common problem with well water - at least always a potential problem.

Sounds like RO to me Dear.

In the meantime you could dose Maroxy. It will provide a stabilized chlorine solution of about .2ppm (normal tap is 1.0ppm). It will likely also affect the bio, so it is a hard tradeoff. You'll have to keep watch for ammonia spike and keep Prime on hand.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jeff, need to do some research. Usually if there is sulfur present there is a rotten egg smell so not sure if there is an issue but throwing all the cards on the table. I do think you are right on the RO. You recommending Maroxy for bacteria? Sounds pretty harsh so will see.

[jpdevol]

It's just something I "pulled out of my hat" (you asked for ideas). If the bacteria need to be reduced, perhaps it is better to use chlorine than an antibiotic - unless an active infection takes hold. Frankly, I did not do enough reading on SRB's to know if they can be pathonogenic. If your theory is correct - it is reasonable - then the SRB's or whatever are surely irritating the fish at a minimum.

[judy]

interesting thread! It has never occurred to me-- and I bet to most of us-- that within my python hose there might lurk a myriad of nasties if it's not kept as clean as we keep our tanks. This is Good Knowledge indeed-- thanks for thinking of it, Pat.

[Second Hand Pat]

It's just something I "pulled out of my hat" (you asked for ideas). If the bacteria need to be reduced, perhaps it is better to use chlorine than an antibiotic - unless an active infection takes hold. Frankly, I did not do enough reading on SRB's to know if they can be pathonogenic. If your theory is correct - it is reasonable - then the SRB's or whatever are surely irritating the fish at a minimum.

Sorry Jeff, I was not dismissing your idea, guess not quite ready to go there. I have a call into John Sr as curious as to his next step should there be one and to also ask about his impression of florida well water and related issues. I sat down with my hubby and asked if he would support me having a dedicated RO unit and he is. We also talked about sulfer in our water and he reminded me that we have a chorine injection system which we are currently not using.


interesting thread! It has never occurred to me-- and I bet to most of us-- that within my python hose there might lurk a myriad of nasties if it's not kept as clean as we keep our tanks. This is Good Knowledge indeed-- thanks for thinking of it, Pat.

You are welcome Judy. I have been following your threads too and keep rooting for you and Dexter

[Discus Origins]

Pat, sorry to see this...did not know you lost another after the first alenquer. I have a dedicated RO/DI unit for all my wild fish. They only get pure product water with no additives.

When I do WC using the python it's always water out first thru the hose before ever using it to fill the tanks or barrels, avoiding any kind of contamination. I think the main issue right now is getting clean water to the fish. Something isn't right from the well water to the bacteria in the hose to scum in the storage barrels.

Set up a RO/DI unit, product water only going into the storage tanks. From there use a water pump to fill tanks, nothing should ever go into your barrels except for product water. Get a unit with a flushing kit and diaphragm/stop valve so you don't have to worry about floods.

Only time I ever medicate wilds are upon receiving stock to de-worm and de-fluke. After that it's clean water and varied diet to keep them happy.

[jpdevol]

No apology needed - I would not go there either unless required:)

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, sorry to see this...did not know you lost another after the first alenquer. I have a dedicated RO/DI unit for all my wild fish. They only get pure product water with no additives.

When I do WC using the python it's always water out first thru the hose before ever using it to fill the tanks or barrels, avoiding any kind of contamination. I think the main issue right now is getting clean water to the fish. Something isn't right from the well water to the bacteria in the hose to scum in the storage barrels.

Set up a RO/DI unit, product water only going into the storage tanks. From there use a water pump to fill tanks, nothing should ever go into your barrels except for product water. Get a unit with a flushing kit and diaphragm/stop valve so you don't have to worry about floods.

Only time I ever medicate wilds are upon receiving stock to de-worm and de-fluke. After that it's clean water and varied diet to keep them happy.

Thanks Mark, I lost the smaller Uatuma blue. :( Very nice fish. Looking into a dedicated RO as we speak and have a plan in place to flush the refill hoses prior to WCs or WC barrel refills.


No apology needed - I would not go there either unless required:)

Thanks Jeff :)

Ok, talked to John Sr. today and from what I described he thinks the problem may be externals but we also discussed my well water and while my well is deeper then his (yes, he has a well also) we agreed that I most likely have sulfur in my water. Not a lot but enough to notice (brown scum in the WC barrows). The source of the sulfur is most likely the containers used for chlorine injection and those need to be cleaned.

On the tank side the QT will be weaned from the salt treatment started with WC tonight and the 75 Alenquer/U Blue tank will began it's salt treatment tonight. I treated the 100 home tank with salt last night and the N. red that made the mad dash is hiding but breathing normally. It scraped itself up last night.

I am hoping to close this thread soon and take the lessons I learned forward into everyday practice. What a journey.

[Second Hand Pat]

As of tonight all is well. The Alenquer and guys in the QT are hungry and happy. The N. red which the mad dash last night is out and eating :):) and the lonely alenquer and u. blue look good and started their salt treatment tonight. :) Anyone for marine discus.

[judy]

what an odyssey-- glad your survivors are improving!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Judy, it has been an odyssey and has made me look at every aspect of my fish keeping. I am super happy to not be walking the edge, too stressful.

I continue to watch you and Dexter. Looking forward to Dexter's continuing return to health and soon in the DT.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well. the salt treatment was not successful for the Alenquer. I found him breathing a bit heavy and swimming in the current created by the AC filter. Could gill flukes be a possibility? If so, would API General Cure be a starting point. I did add a half dose of salt which gave some relief. Saga continues...sigh.

[Discus Origins]

Pat, I like to set up my QTs with either just a sponge filter or air stone with heater. Current from HOB may be stressing the fish too much when it's already not well. You said the fish had been flashing before? Could be flukes, anti-fluke is best thing for that.

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat.........these meds are for flukes in case you may want to try it.............imo even PP bath or Formalin are good to treat Monogenean parasites.

Clout...........malachite green, dimethyl phosphonate [= trichlorfon], metronidazole.

Fluke Tabs...............trichlorfon and mebendazole

Live Bearer...........dimethyl, hydroxy, trichloromethyl phosphate [= trichlorfon]

Parasite Clear..........praziquantel, N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide [= dimilin], metronidazole, acriflavine.

hth




Well. the salt treatment was not successful for the Alenquer. I found him breathing a bit heavy and swimming in the current created by the AC filter. Could gill flukes be a possibility? If so, would API General Cure be a starting point. I did add a half dose of salt which gave some relief. Saga continues...sigh.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Mark, the fish is choosing to swim directly in the current caused by the filter. My impression is the fish is try to move more water through its gills. Yes, the fish has been flashing. Last night I noticed a couple of small darkest areas which looked like the fish had hit itself so guessing this is from a darting occurrance.

There are quiet parts of the tank with no current. I'm currently researching the LB anti-fluke.

[Second Hand Pat]

So I arrived home from work and the Alenquer went downhill big time today. I treated with Clout (not the med of choice of Jeff or Eddie) about an hour as it was the only med I have that targets gill flukes. I know it may not be flukes and only have my own observations to go by. But when you are backed in to a corner ya have to go with your best shot. So wish me luck and hopefully, maybe there will be some improvement later. :( (body parts crossed).

[strawberryblonde]

I have my fingers and toes crossed for the NADA raffle, but I can cross some other parts for you. Not sure how well all this pretzel like crossing stuff is gonna go over with my husband. He's already looking at me funny.

Does your guy have a name yet? I need a name so I can cheer him on! For now just "go Alen!!!" will have to suffice. =)

[Second Hand Pat]

Tell ya what...we will called it breathless for now and if it survives the night we will promote it to something more dignified. In the meantime I will cross some body parts for you on the raffle. Remember there is going to be another one shortly after.

[strawberryblonde]

My new tank is almost in the house, so I'll definitely thank you hugely if your crossed body parts tip the scales for me. =) I'm looking at in the back of the truck and just waiting on our well muscled neighbor to mosey on over here and help us drag it into the house.

Ok, Breathless it is. Gooooooooo Breathless!!! You can do it buddy!!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Toni, needs pics soon.

[Keith Perkins]

Oh Pat, you're really way more than do for a change in luck. The agitation and darting certainly sound like flukes and I've thought about that possibility many times throughout the life of this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard of flukes killing adult discus. Of course if they're so bothered by flukes that they're going straight into the glass at 90 per that could certainly kill them. Did you scope for flukes on your earlier victims?

[jpdevol]

So I arrived home from work and the Alenquer went downhill big time today. I treated with Clout (not the med of choice of Jeff or Eddie) about an hour as it was the only med I have that targets gill flukes. I know it may not be flukes and only have my own observations to go by. But when you are backed in to a corner ya have to go with your best shot. So wish me luck and hopefully, maybe there will be some improvement later. :( (body parts crossed).

I have friends that swear by Clout (Trichlorfon). It is typically most successful in softer (<60GH) acid (<7PH) water and at a temperature below 80F. It can be harsh, but is effective. Cross'in what I got:)

[Second Hand Pat]

Oh Pat, you're really way more than do for a change in luck. The agitation and darting certainly sound like flukes and I've thought about that possibility many times throughout the life of this thread, but I don't think I've ever heard of flukes killing adult discus. Of course if they're so bothered by flukes that they're going straight into the glass at 90 per that could certainly kill them. Did you scope for flukes on your earlier victims?

Hey Keith, The few dashes I saw the fish looked like it liberally wanted out of the water. I didn't scope. Guess I should ask if you can scope a dead discus. Sure you can. Skin, gills and stomach?


I have friends that swear by Clout (Trichlorfon). It is typically most successful in softer (<60GH) acid (<7PH) water and at a temperature below 80F. It can be harsh, but is effective. Cross'in what I got:)

Jeff, the only one in that list I have is the tank is running about 80. It normally runs about 82. Keep everything crossed. If this fish passes in the night can I place it in the frig and scope later tomorrow?

[jpdevol]

Well, I've learned from Eddie that the temperature may be the most important. Jack Wattley was a big fan of Clout and therefore most of the success stories with which I am familiar were in softer water - not to the exculsion of harder water success though.

I have actually found flukes on the scum that forms on the airlines to sponge filters when the fish showed no symptoms. I do not know what the result of refrigeration would be on the microscopy - I hope you are not faced with that situation.

Dang it - I just remebered a study that does indicate the "half-life" of Trichlorfon is reduced at higher PH; I shall find it and post it. Still, I am not discouraging you from using it. I think the important thing is ridding the parasite.

[jpdevol]

Here it is:

realize this is primarily a general pesticide; at higher PH's its activity is reduced, but studies of parasites in aquarium environments have not been studied to my knowledge.

http://psep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-peapp-ph.aspx

[Second Hand Pat]

So it loses it's activity when the ph is 7.0 or above. Great. Guess we will see in the morning. Suggestions to switching to Flubendazole? without toxifying (sp) the fish.

I think I need that vodka.

[Keith Perkins]

I hope you weren't asking me about scoping a dead fish. I mean you're the one with 3 scopes and I don't have any. :D Thought maybe you could use a smile at this point. I'm just assuming flukes are like most other parasites and survive for a while even after the host dies. I'm hoping you don't have to find out for sure.

[Second Hand Pat]

I hope you weren't asking me about scoping a dead fish. I mean you're the one with 3 scopes and I don't have any. :D Thought maybe you could use a smile at this point. I'm just assuming flukes are like most other parasites and survive for a while even after the host dies. I'm hoping you don't have to find out for sure.

I was ;) and enjoyed the light moment. I figure if the fish dies and is refrigerated the parasites should still be the tissues, even if dead and hopefully identifiable under a scope. Of course I do not know my way about a parasite.

[Keith Perkins]

I hear you on parasite identification, one of the reasons I still don't have a scope. I'm sure a quick Goggle would find flukes for you. Don't know if you have the means to do it, but if you could post a pic of anything else you found it's likely someone here could identify it if you couldn't find it on the net.

[Second Hand Pat]

I will try my best if I can but hope I do not have too.

[jpdevol]

Flukes are relatively easy to find and identify. Try a scraping of an airline (esp. one that has some calcium scale on it) and see what you get.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA03300.pdf

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA11100.pdf

[Second Hand Pat]

Flukes are relatively easy to find and identify. Try a scraping of an airline (esp. one that has some calcium scale on it) and see what you get.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA03300.pdf

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA11100.pdf

Thanks Jeff, I will try that. Also any suggestions to switching to Flubendazole? without toxifying (sp) the fish sure I need to.

[jpdevol]

Typicall water changes and charcoal to remove the Trichlorfon, then start the Flubendazole (I posted some info over in JL's thread). I do not mind a bit (else I would not be posting here), but ya'll are keeping me busy:)

Did Eddie go on vacation or something??:D:D We do often have different methods and opinions, but I miss him.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well good news, Breathless is alive and looking considerable better. Breathing rate is much slower and the fish is a little dark. So I'm allowing the clout to run it's 24 hour course and do a huge WC this afternoon and over the next couple of days.

Jeff, I know we are keeping you busy but glad you are here. I read a comment on FB that Eddie was coming to the US so he could be here but have no details.

[Keith Perkins]

Jeff - that looking for flukes on the airline is an interesting type, thanks for sharing it.

[roundfishross]

Typicall water changes and charcoal to remove the Trichlorfon, then start the Flubendazole (I posted some info over in JL's thread). I do not mind a bit (else I would not be posting here), but ya'll are keeping me busy:)

Did Eddie go on vacation or something??:D:D We do often have different methods and opinions, but I miss him.

Eddies in school in the states

Leo

[seanyuki]

You can try these methods Formalin or Potassium Permanganate bath to treat flukes.....read this article in the book Fish Disease Diagnosis & Treatment by Dr. Edward J Noga.


prophylactic treatment with a broad spectrum parasiticide, such as formalin or potassium permanganate,

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033

hth

[JL15219]

Well good news, Breathless is alive and looking considerable better. Breathing rate is much slower and the fish is a little dark. So I'm allowing the clout to run it's 24 hour course and do a huge WC this afternoon and over the next couple of days.

Jeff, I know we are keeping you busy but glad you are here. I read a comment on FB that Eddie was coming to the US so he could be here but have no details.

Hey Pat the discus is doing better with what treatment? Clout or the Life Bearer?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Javier, I used clout and the discus is breathing normal, good color and showing a little bar. It still seems a little antsy but hoping it will settle after the WC I will be doing in a couple of hours. I just offered a little flake and it mouthed without eating. But it has been off food for a few days now so not worried about that at the moment.

I treated with clout as I do not have the life bearer nor could find it locally. From what I read if I had to choose between clout or life bearer I would have chosen the life bearer over the clout.

[Second Hand Pat]

You can try these methods Formalin or Potassium Permanganate bath to treat flukes.....read this article in the book Fish Disease Diagnosis & Treatment by Dr. Edward J Noga.


prophylactic treatment with a broad spectrum parasiticide, such as formalin or potassium permanganate,

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033

hth

Francis, you are suggesting Formalin or Potassium Permanganate over the Flubendazole? or just allowing me to consider all the options.

Never mind Francis, the U of F vet recommends Formalin or Potassium Permanganate. Thanks. Researching Formalin.

[Keith Perkins]

I really like PP for a number of reasons. For flukes and external parasites it's effective, quick, easy to use, and cheap ta boot. Of course whether or not that's the root of your problem is still a question. Just my two cents on PP.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Keith, reading up on PP also. Thanks for the pdf. Where do you get PP? Hardware store?

[Keith Perkins]

Essentially yes, I got mine at a regional store called Farm & Fleet.

[Second Hand Pat]

Of course whether or not that's the root of your problem is still a question.

Yea I know. Observation only at the moment.

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat.......I get my PP from the Pharmacy like Shoppers Drugs or Safeway for $10 for 100g but these days you can buy online for $8 for 1 lb.

http://yourchemicalconnection.com/1-Lb-Potassium-Permanganate-Koi-Fish/M/B0034UCKWE.htm?traffic_src=froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

hth

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Francis. I could call the local drug store. Also did locate some Formalin locally just in case.

[Second Hand Pat]

Did a huge WC this afternoon. Wild discus get very antsy when the water level is just above their dorsal fin. The Alenquer does have some affected small skin areas. I will get some pictures up if I can get some shots.

[Second Hand Pat]

Not great pictures, especially the second one. Color is a bit faded too.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/p1010107-1.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/p1010111.jpg

[jpdevol]

I cannot identify external parasites from the photos, but I do see evidence of external parasites - small red spots around the forehead and in the area between the lateral line and dorsal base. It may have been the photo light, but there is an area on the right forehead that has the potential to be a patch of Chilodonella (Hmmmm????).

After waiting for other input, I would honestly be leaning toward a formalin bath, with a PP dip a second choice. If progress is not made (I think it will), the Flubendazole can wait for another day.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jeff, can the Formalin be applied to the entire tank? or does it need to be a bath/dip?

Found this on the Drs Foster and Smith website for FishVet Formalin-MS

Dosing instructions
Use 2 drops per gallon of aquarium water every other day until control is achieved. 1 teaspoon treats 90 gallons, 1 oz. treats 500 gallons. Remove carbon during treatment. After treatment is complete, perform a 25% water change and replace carbon filtration.

To use as a dip:
Use 20 drops per gallon and treat fish for a maximum of 50 minutes. Remove from dip sooner if fish shows signs of stress.

[jpdevol]

It can be done either way. For Flukes it is probably best to treat the main tank in a bath to rid the entire environment of Flukes. The one remaining question is are they live-bearers (one and done) or egg-layers (another treatment required per life-cycle)??

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jeff,

From http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033...

Dactylogyrus is usually attached to the gills of freshwater fish. It reproduces by laying eggs, which are often resistant to chemical treatment, therefore weekly treatment over a period of 34 weeks is recommended.

Gyrodactylus is usually found on the skin and fins of freshwater fish and produces live young, so one treatment may be adequate to control an infestation.

Any better way to pen point this?

[jpdevol]

A scope:) Sorry to be a smartass.

The 34 week period is probably for cold water environs. Aquarium life cycle will be several days to a few weeks.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ah no problem Jeff, I meant the life cycle. I am not ignoring your suggestion on scraping a airline. I just do not have any to scrape. Would scoping a snail have any uses?

[jpdevol]

The airline thing was indeed a "fluke" - pun intended - as I was just curious as to what was in it. Of course the best way is a direct swabbing of the suspected fish. A Q-tip rubbed from gill plate to pectoral base (while netted) should produce results. Then place a drop of water on a slide and swirl the q-tip sample on the drop of water. Hopefully, you will get a confirmation.

A snail may also produce results.

[Second Hand Pat]

I will do a snail first as practice...time to setup the scope.

[Keith Perkins]

Not that Jeff needs ANY support, but logic has always told me to treat the entire tank. I've never seen the point of treating a fish I suspected had flukes or something similar in a QT and then putting it right back into the same environment it got the parasites from in the first place that hasn't been treated.

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat......if you gonna treat the whole tank using PP .......better have another tank ready with clean water with airstone ,heater etc in case the discus get too stressed (lying on its side or gasping for air).......also have H2O2 handy.

BIDKA forum ......how to use PP.

Potassium Permanganate (PP)

Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) or PP for short, is one of the most useful of all medicines an aquarist can have in his/her fish medicine cabinet. PP is effective against external fungi, bacteria and parasites, including gill flukes. It is relatively safe and very effective. It can also be used as a steriliser and an oxidiser of organic compounds.

Whenever using PP it is always wise to have some Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on hand to neutralise the PP in case of an emergency. Most de chlorinators will also neutralise PP.

Some fish are sensitive to PP, for example some Lake Malawi cichlids, and these should be treated at a dose rate of 1mg/litre. For discus the standard dose rate is 2mg/litre for a minimum of four hours. Most cichlids will comfortably tolerate this dosage level. The fish keeper should at all times watch the reaction of their fish during treatment for signs of distress. Many fish, including discus, will clamp up and sit fairly still during treatment. This is normal behaviour and to be expected, however the author has also seen his fish continue with territorial disputes and the like throughout! Many dosing schedules give their dosing in ppm or Parts Per Million, 1 ppm is the same as 1mg/litre.

Before carrying out a PP treatment, or any treatment for that matter, it is advisable to wipe down all hard surfaces in the tank and to siphon out as much debris as possible, in the process performing a partial water change. This will reduce the organic payload both in the tank and in the water column and give a higher chance of treatment success.

The safest way to does PP is to do so in a tank with no substrate and very little decoration, plants and the like. PP works by oxidising the organics in the tank and is indiscriminate, so will happily oxidise the bog wood as well as any bugs we are trying to kill. PP can be used in planted tanks, though the author has had limited success using it this way.

PP when dosed at a maximum of 2mg/litre or lower will have a minimal impact on a fully mature and well established bio filter. Bio filters that have been established for less than six months may be adversely affected so the fish keeper will need to monitor for ammonia after treatment and take the appropriate action if detected. Dosing rates higher than this will almost certainly have a negative impact on your bio filter.

Over dosing with Potassium Permanganate will cause serious harm to your fish including burnt gills and damaged eyes. In some cases it will kill your fish. If you inadvertently overdose the neutralise with Hydrogen Peroxide and perform as large a water change as possible.

The author strongly recommends the use of inexpensive gram scales. These can be bought from a variety of outlets including health food stores, chemists or pharmacies and from the internet. They are well worth the investment and any scale that weighs up to 50grams with a subdivision of a minimum of 0.1gram will suffice.

A kitchen measuring teaspoon of the type used in cooking will, when gently tapped and leveled, hold approximately 7 grams of PP crystals.

The first step in administering PP, or any medication, is to know the volume of water to be treated. This needs to be done as accurately as possible, so measurements should be taken on the inside of the aquarium. If the measurements are taken in millimetres then calculating the capacity as litres is relatively easy.

The following equation will calculate the number of litres:

Length(mm) x Height(mm) x Width(mm) / 1,000,000 = Number of Litres
so
1,200mm x 380mm x 600mm / 1,000,000 = 273.6 Litres

It is important to measure to the top of the water level as there is often a gap between the water level and the top of the tank. We need to know the volume of water present not the total capacity of the tank!

Using the above example if we wanted to treat that amount of water at a dose rate of 2mg/litre we simply multiply the number of litres by 2 and this gives us the total number of milligrams (mg) we need. So in our example this would be 273.6 x 2 = 547.2 mg. We can ignore the value after the decimal point. As can be seen this is a relatively small amount of Potassium Permanganate needed, which is why using a gram scale is of great value. Trying to measure this amount using a teaspoon is virtually impossible.

The PP crystals would then be dissolved in warm water and the mixture then added to the tank. The colour of the water should remain purple or pinkish for a minimum of four hours. If it turns brown or yellowish before this time it indicates the organic load is too high. Some fish keepers will add further known doses of PP to maintain the purple colour, which is relatively safe up to a maximum total dose of 6mg/litre. However the author prefers to stop the treatment using a very small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide (see below), clean the tank and do a partial water change and repeat the treatment the next day.

Always ensure that there is adequate aeration in the tank during treatment, PP will use up oxygen in the water during treatment. Running an air stone or pointing the outlet of the filter at the surface are two ways to achieve this.

One effective way to use Potassium Permanganate is to make a stock solution. A stock solution is a concentrated mixture of PP at a known concentration. Depending on how you measure your volume will depend on the amount of PP crystals to weigh or measure out. However the method is the same no matter how one measures volume. Go to the appropriate section below that is relevant to how you measure volumes.

http://bidka.org/pp1.shtml

hth

[Keith Perkins]

Francis - the portion of the BIDKA instructions you provided are great, I use them myself and provided the same to Pat via a pdf, but I find your initial warning alarmist in nature. I've used PP maybe a dozen times on adults and juvies as small as 2" or so and as long as you follow the dosing instructions you're just not going to put your discus into distress. The only time I every experienced any negative reaction is when I went to 3 or 4 PPM on 2" juvies and it obviously irritated their gills a bit. Even then neutralizing the PP with Hydrogen Peroxide and doing a WC had the fish much more comfortable immediately and I saw no ill affects 24 hours later and my fluke problem was resolved.

I appreciate you wanting to be careful and all, but if folks just follow the directions having an extra tank set up just isn't necessary. As well as PP works, I'd hate to scare people off from using it.