my discus ok?

[zchauvin]

One of my two discus looked like he had ick on Friday so I began treating and today when I got back he had white sores on him and my second was just starting to get one. I immediately tested water and saw my ammonia was at 1ppm so I did 50% wc and added methyl one and melafix to fight ick and sores. Ammonia went to 0, any ideas?

Ph-7, nitrate-2, nitrite-0, temp-83. 30% wc every 2 days.

[Skip]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

fill this out please.. the more detailed the better. thanks

[TURQ64]

Yep, please fill out all of the form..I'd have initially went with Malachite Green over MB, but now it's different..I personally think the Melafix is crap, but maybe it'll work for you...

[roundfishross]

plus 1 on the melafix or pimafix both = crap

[zchauvin]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

I had one fish who looked like he had ick so I used old med which i found out was outdated came back home two days later to see it severely worse and my second discus begining to also show signs. Immediately began treating with new medication.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

both fish are new so just starting to eat a little, hiding alot but also may be normal, rubbing on plants, white blisters/ sores on body where skin so to speak "hangs off"





3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
outdated ick treatment which led to nothing of course, currently dosing melafix and melachite green for two days now




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
29g,8 tetras, 6 cory cats, 2 2" discus


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
30% eod, 4 months, gravel/planted, no


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 83

- ph 7

- ammonia reading 1ppm

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading <5

- well water ____

- municipal water yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

2 discus

[zchauvin]

Yep, please fill out all of the form..I'd have initially went with Malachite Green over MB, but now it's different..I personally think the Melafix is crap, but maybe it'll work for you...

it is melachite green ;) mix up and i just read the melafix fixes open soars so gave it a shot

[TURQ64]

The numbers on your water parameters are o.k. with the exception of 'where's the ammonia coming from'?..I'd stick with the MG and add some salt if you haven't already..3 tbs. or so for a 29g..follow the MG directions closely..you need to break the cycle of the protozoan..
a good dose of MG and salt isn't good for the tetra and cories..

[Eddie]

Not to contradict Gary but tetras and corys can be a bit salt sensitive, as well as having sensitivity to malachite green. Watch them.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[TURQ64]

Not to contradict Gary but tetras and corys can be a bit salt sensitive, as well as having sensitivity to malachite green. Watch them.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

ya snuck that one in during my one finger edit!..

[Eddie]

Ah, I had to re-read the questionnaire so that's where I noticed it. Been busy today so didn't get to reply to much posts in the disease section. ;)


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[zchauvin]

I have dosed 3 tbs salt already and yes I've been putting 1 drop per gallon so double what is recommended for tetras. Idk about ammonia source?? Extra food I may not see??

[Eddie]

Check your filters, any food build up. Do you use a prefilter?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[zchauvin]

I checked everything and it was caused by dead tetra. My fiance just told me yhe first red leopard died a few minutes ago. Is this going to kill the other also?? He just had one spot on his body and I have been using malachite green for two days. The red leopard was in bad shape to begin with but the blue diamond was in superb shape.

[zchauvin]

this is what my blue diamond is looking like. hes swimming around and seems ok, ive been overly stressed about this due to loss of my red leopard. any ideas guys?? I believe its ick??

6640666407

[Eddie]

No, this isn't ick, may be a combination of an external parasite and secondary bacteria. You need to move these fish out of that tank and into a hospital tank. My first move would be 4 hour bath with Potassium Permanganate. Do you have PP on hand? What other treatments do you have on hand or available?

[zchauvin]

No, this isn't ick, may be a combination of an external parasite and secondary bacteria. You need to move these fish out of that tank and into a hospital tank. My first move would be 4 hour bath with Potassium Permanganate. Do you have PP on hand? What other treatments do you have on hand or available?

:/ man I hoped I wouldn't hear that and I only have ick stuff and melafix nothing else. The fish shows all signs of ick as well, it rubs on plants and sometimes flutters its body. Also you may not be able to see in pic but has white slime material on it that comes off when hitting plants.

[Eddie]

:/ man I hoped I wouldn't hear that and I only have ick stuff and melafix nothing else. The fish shows all signs of ick as well, it rubs on plants and sometimes flutters its body. Also you may not be able to see in pic but has white slime material on it that comes off when hitting plants.

Oh, I see that. Its the fishes slimecoat. What ick chemicals did you use? Last I thought, you used Malachite Green and Salt right?

[zchauvin]

Yes you are correct, good notes. Ideas?

[Eddie]

Yes you are correct, good notes. Ideas?

Yeah, I don't use salt with Malachite Green, others feel its fine but have read articles on how they counteract each other. ;)

At this point, is this the only fish left? I'd dip the fish and return it to a new quarantine tank. In the QT tank, you will only have air and a heater. Now, the dip is the tricky part. I know Jeff (jpdevol) has been recommending Hydrogen Peroxide dips but I don't use them or advise them so you could check with him to see what he advises. Otherwise, the 4 hour PP bath is a good move if you can get your hands on it.

[Vee]

Jungle "Clear Water" is PP in liquid form and readily available in the pet section in Walmart. Cheap too.

[Eddie]

Jungle "Clear Water" is PP in liquid form and readily available in the pet section in Walmart. Cheap too.

yup, hit that 24 hour Walmart!

[zchauvin]

yup, hit that 24 hour Walmart!


Going get it now ,have a 29g for quarantine not fully cycled.will this work for just the discus?in current tank is five cory cats ,discus ,and seven tetra

[jpdevol]

In my experience this is beyond Hydrogen Peroxide, so +1 on the PP for starters. Noga (and others) do list HP as parasite treatment, but I believe the dosage required most of the time is too harsh and risks outweigh benefits.

From the picture it does look like it could be a patch of Chilodonella or Costia with a secondary of Aeromonas as Eddie indicates. Sorry, the photo is not good enough to be more than a guess. My problem is that the MG should have at least stopped those flagellates from progressing, even if it did not clear them. Perhaps it is a copepod and thrichlorfon is needed.:confused: Better pic may help - sorry.

[zchauvin]

In my experience this is beyond Hydrogen Peroxide, so +1 on the PP for starters. Noga (and others) do list HP as parasite treatment, but I believe the dosage required most of the time is too harsh and risks outweigh benefits.

From the picture it does look like it could be a patch of Chilodonella or Costia with a secondary of Aeromonas as Eddie indicates. Sorry, the photo is not good enough to be more than a guess. My problem is that the MG should have at least stopped those flagellates from progressing, even if it did not clear them. Perhaps it is a copepod and thrichlorfon is needed.:confused: Better pic may help - sorry.
No jungle clear water. Will rid ick plus work. Or specifics they have many for fungus

[Eddie]

Going get it now ,have a 29g for quarantine not fully cycled.will this work for just the discus?in current tank is five cory cats ,discus ,and seven tetra

How many discus? No need to have any filtration on the treatment tank, just air and heater.

Rid Ick is formalin and Malachite green, its decent but not my first choice. Move the affected discus to the treatment tank, watch to not gouge or scrape the fish as Formalin can be deadly on wounds. Don't think that treating with more than required will help. You ONLY want to treat for the volume of water, not volume of the tank. Good air and keep the temp at 82 max, lights off.

[zchauvin]

How many discus? No need to have any filtration on the treatment tank, just air and heater.

Rid Ick is formalin and Malachite green, its decent but not my first choice. Move the affected discus to the treatment tank, watch to not gouge or scrape the fish as Formalin can be deadly on wounds. Don't think that treating with more than required will help. You ONLY want to treat for the volume of water, not volume of the tank. Good air and keep the temp at 82 max, lights off.
I love quick replies when its 845 and petsmart closes at 9 thanks a million

[zchauvin]

How many discus? No need to have any filtration on the treatment tank, just air and heater.

Rid Ick is formalin and Malachite green, its decent but not my first choice. Move the affected discus to the treatment tank, watch to not gouge or scrape the fish as Formalin can be deadly on wounds. Don't think that treating with more than required will help. You ONLY want to treat for the volume of water, not volume of the tank. Good air and keep the temp at 82 max, lights off.

One discus, I got jungle clearwater and rid ick plus. Which one ??

[Eddie]

One discus, I got jungle clearwater and rid ick plus. Which one ??

Thought you couldn't get clear water. I'd go with clear water for sure. DO NOT MIX rid ich with clearwater or you will kill the fish immediately.

Do you use any dechlor products, if so, which one?

[zchauvin]

Got it and now moving to qt tank and no dechlor

[Eddie]

Got it and now moving to qt tank and no dechlor

Check your PMs

[Skip]

Got it and now moving to qt tank and no dechlor


umm. i think you need decholr in the water... if not.. you fish will die.. eddie was asking which one you use..

[zchauvin]

umm. i think you need decholr in the water... if not.. you fish will die.. eddie was asking which one you use..
sorry yes I do and I use aquasafe

[zchauvin]

664166641766415

[Eddie]

He look a million time better than the last pictures. I'd just add some salt for now and wait til tomorrow for the PP treatment, if its even needed. I know you are heading to bed so take a rest. ;)

[zchauvin]

He look a million time better than the last pictures. I'd just add some salt for now and wait til tomorrow for the PP treatment, if its even needed. I know you are heading to bed so take a rest. ;)

This is pics of fish after several wc, syphons, ect.. everything possible to do i did. I have been doing 25-50% wc everyday temp at 81.5-82 no lights. ph is at around 7.6. He's in 29g biocube( not cycled, story on this is that i had it for reef tank then took all apart washed real good and started cycling for fw about 5 days before using for him) my filter is off with only airstone. I have added aquarium salt to tank from start and every wc. Put whole bottle of clear water without holding pink color for more than 5 sec. so did 75%wc then used dechlor and let sit for hour or so. Then added furan-2 and will add more tomorrow then 25%wc as directed. The fish seems to be wonderful. ( full color, perky fins, clear eyes, swims constantly instead of hide.) Only thing is still no eating. Got him 7 days ago, have tried beefheart, bloodworms, and brine shrimp. The sores look much better in person than in pics but heres the shots i got.

6644066441

[Eddie]

Don't feed him, it will only pollute the water. Keep the lights of during the Furan-2 treatment and maintain the salt. Should be a full recovery in a several days.

[zchauvin]

Don't feed him, it will only pollute the water. Keep the lights of during the Furan-2 treatment and maintain the salt. Should be a full recovery in a several days.

Ok sounds good I just went scoop up other brine shrimp from bottom. should i be running filter? i have off due to the current pushing him around. should i be worried about tank cycling with him in it?

[Eddie]

Ok sounds good I just went scoop up other brine shrimp from bottom. should i be running filter? i have off due to the current pushing him around. should i be worried about tank cycling with him in it?

No filtration, just airstone and heater.

[zchauvin]

No filtration, just airstone and heater.
good deal thanks eddie much appreciated bro, ill update and pm prob around friday unless things worsen

[Eddie]

good deal thanks eddie much appreciated bro, ill update and pm prob around friday unless things worsen


Cool, keep me posted!

[zchauvin]

Cool, keep me posted!

Well Eddie with all we did the fish looked great last night as you see in the picks. This morning he looks like crap, same story. Barely moving and his skin/slime is all over tank and falling off of him. I did wc and added more salt, meds. Idk what else bro...

[Eddie]

No worries, increase the salt to 2 tbsp/10 gallons and continue with the F2.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[zchauvin]

I hope he makes it another 5 hours :/ I'm gunna do 75% wc and add 6 tbs salt plus 2 more packs f2

[zchauvin]

and what exactly do you think I'm dealing with here? Any specifics or you would have to literally test fish

[zchauvin]

well nevermind all the questions eddie. he died about ten minutes after i was home. send me your email so i can show you what he looked like. I cant upload camera picks because of size issues. the soars got huge and spread to both sides like a rash, they were black spots. Also had white spots everywheres too. I have three good pics so you can see him and figure out what it was if youd like or let me know something.

[jpdevol]

Yes you had something different. Very sorry for your loss.

If you do not mind, please post pics here so we all can learn.

[zchauvin]

Yes you had something different. Very sorry for your loss.

If you do not mind, please post pics here so we all can learn.

Anyway to resize pics to fit thread? it says my pics were to large.

[jpdevol]

You will have to use a photo editor program such as MS Office Picture Manager, HP Image Zone, etc.

[zchauvin]

664496645066451

pics

[zchauvin]

You will have to use a photo editor program such as MS Office Picture Manager, HP Image Zone, etc.

used paint :) lol heres the pics, keep in mind fish had white spots on tail even though not very visible like ick and also at very early stage rubbed on things like if having ick. This all started as two very small white splotches

[Vee]

Can anyone take a guess at what was ailing this fish?

[jpdevol]

I have a suspicion, but I need better photos - sorry.

[zchauvin]

I have a suspicion, but I need better photos - sorry.

i tried to email you the pics but it could not.. gave me a return email saying permanent failure. I tried sending through my gmail account. what are your suspicions?? ill explain exactly how it happened.. I bought red leopard skin that started getting white spots on it.. began treatment for ick but came back two days later to see slime/mucus falling off of him. next day dead. prior to day of death the blue diamond had two very very small spots. ( fish began getting slime/skin also, which went away after putting in qt tank) removed him and put into qt tank with no lights, no filtration just air stone and temp at 81-82. nitrite nitrate ammonia, all 0. prior to day of rls death ammonia got to 1. in qt tank i did 75% wc daily using aquarium salt for first two days and pp treatment. fish looked healthy yesterday with only small sore(began treatment with furan-2).( seen in pics b4 these in thread) this morning the sores had grown and slime/skin reappeared. this afternoon approx. 8 hours later fish looked horrible and sores got huge/ spread. Had black and white dots on both sides of body and died.

Edit- both fish shook rapidly and had all ick like symptoms yet malachite green did nothing. Also only the blue diamond had sores.

[Vee]

Save the photos as on photobucket and post to us.

[jpdevol]

Dang, I'd like to confirm with pics. There are other possiblilities, but my suspicion is a copepod, likely Lernea (Anchor Worm). During the life cycle of this copepod the female, after mating, burrows into the skin of the host fish and lays an egg sac. When the eggs hatch, they create a large ucler at the point of entry/exit and the larvae then become motile. They are indeed resistant to many treatments including MG. Trichlorfon does have some success. That is a weak guess based on the circumstance.

[zchauvin]

Here are pics from in show tank, qt tank after getting slightly better and then after huge breakout...

http://s1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd516/zchauvin72992/

these are all the pics i have and the best I can get them.

[jpdevol]

Sorry; I had downloaded all those pics and tweaked them best I can with no conclusions. Save the corpse (sorry to be cold) and see if you can find a microscope. If it is Lernea it is in the tank and may recur. Also, it was likely in the fish when you got it 7 days ago - perhaps call the source to confirm.

[zchauvin]

Sorry; I had downloaded all those pics and tweaked them best I can with no conclusions. Save the corpse (sorry to be cold) and see if you can find a microscope. If it is Lernea it is in the tank and may recur. Also, it was likely in the fish when you got it 7 days ago - perhaps call the source to confirm.
fish has long been flushed :/ talked to source yesterday and 1 old fish like the red leopard died and they sold the rest. i got rls 1 day before blue diamond from lfs and next day got bd right out of bad from the truck just getting there for them. idk what to do or what this may be.. i will thouroughly clean qt tank. My tetras and cory cats are all fine inside my show tank with no signs of anything. should i throw something in there just to be sure of no recurs happening? if so what do you suggest

if you want me to throw you a real slider the tank is planted and had a lily from "someones pond" put in it from lfs the day after rls introduced and day before bd. rls looked ill before lily was put in so prob not source but as i said nothing but the two discus was affected.