Need advice

[Sean Buehrle]

Disease Questionnaire - please complete
Please complete the questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste)

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Well I just recieved some new youngins. Ive had them for 3 days. 11 - 2 inchers. 8 of them are fine looking but out of the 8 only 3 are eating and keeping it down.

The other 3 that are also not eating have white poop hanging out and are hiding under a sponge filter constantly. They rarely come out. They dont look bad other than keeping thier dorsal fin down, Thier eyes look kinda dark too.

If I act like I am going to feed them the 8 do come to the top of the tank and are excited. I am trying to feed them dry flake, hikari frozen blood worms, frozen brine.

Only 3 are eating it, the others are not interested.





2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Not eating ,hiding, white poop. dark looking eyes.





3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

1 hour ago I added some epsom salt to the water. 2tbs per 10 gal.




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55 gal/ The tank has been set up for 4 weeks. I cycled the filter with pure ammonia did 3-100% water changes and have done 75% changes last 3 days.



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
AT least 75 % change every day. bare bottom tank. yes I age the water 24 hours,with a powerhead blowing bubbles. I use prime.


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____

86
- ph _____
7

- ammonia reading ____ 0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____ Theres always some in my tanks, expected. I do large water changes so I dont really check it like I should.

- well water ____NO

- municipal water ____YES

Im a stickler for water. I check ammonia and nitrite every morning, they are always zero. I sometimes check it before I do a water change just to see whats goin on.

7. Any new fish/plants added recently. The fish are new, no plants, BB tank


Im not new to discus, Im thinking the fish are still stressed from shipping, but the white poop and hiding has me a little worried. also Ive never seen a baby discus turn down brine shrimp.

1 hour ago I put 2tbs per 10 gal of epsom salt in the tank and I must say that they have perked up, all except 1 are in the middle of the tank and acting alot better. less stressed and seem curious.

Still not eating and the white poop has me worried.

[Hsunami]

took my 8 discus About a week to adjust to my 55 gallon tank. Try adding some some plastic decor, or silk plants to create hiding spaces.

Just give'em some time to adjust

The poop question i'll leave that to others. I'm no expert on that.

-Kevin

[Eddie]

Dont stress yet, 3 days is minimal. No need to add any Epsom salt. Also, maybe keep the lights off for a while so the fish get comfortable. Were the fish shipped to you?

[Sean Buehrle]

Dont stress yet, 3 days is minimal. No need to add any Epsom salt. Also, maybe keep the lights off for a while so the fish get comfortable. Were the fish shipped to you?

yes they were shipped. 11 in one bag. maybe half gallon of water in there and the water did stink. I acclimated them for an hour and they seemed pretty groggy for about 12 hours. no lights cept the window.

OK on the salt ILL leave it overnight and remove it with a water change tomorrow.

[Sean Buehrle]

update

today I got home and on two of the discus I can see small white threadlike things hanging out of the rear ends of two of the fish. they look like some sort of worms to me. they are about the size of a piece of sewing thread and almost an inch long.

[Skip]

that is not a good sign :(

[Eddie]

Pictures please


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[Sean Buehrle]

Pictures please


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This is as good as i can get on a picture, junk camera

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv225/seanndenise1/DSCN0247-1.jpg

[Eddie]

Can't tell too well but looks like tapeworms/cestodes. Prazipro will handle it. Looks like these are dead worms being pushed out.


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[Sean Buehrle]

The fish isnt really a good specimen. The others look alot better and are twice his size. looks as though he has been sick for quite awhile and has issues with nutrition.

[Sean Buehrle]

eddie,

I do have some prazi pro as a matter of fact. being that theres epsom salt in the water at 2 tbs per 10 gal can i just add it or do a big water change first.


Can't tell too well but looks like tapeworms/cestodes. Prazipro will handle it. Looks like these are dead worms being pushed out.


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[Eddie]

Probably been robbed of nutrients from the beginning.

I'd change water and add it, usually 24-48 hours is sufficient.


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[Sean Buehrle]

Thanks man

Ill let ya know how it goes.

[ericatdallas]

Whoa. Who did you buy the fish from?

I hate to think anyone would send you fry that had that kind of size disparity from the same brood. There's always something wrong with them in some way if they are the same age and have that kind of size difference.

I'm not very good at judging discus yet and even worse at judging juvenile discus but that one you can clearly tell is messed up even without the worm hanging out it's butt...

[Sean Buehrle]

Whoa. Who did you buy the fish from?

I hate to think anyone would send you fry that had that kind of size disparity from the same brood. There's always something wrong with them in some way if they are the same age and have that kind of size difference.

I'm not very good at judging discus yet and even worse at judging juvenile discus but that one you can clearly tell is messed up even without the worm hanging out it's butt... well its not proper room etiquette to slam someone on the boards. I will definately let the person know and if you must know I would be happy to tell you in a pm. I got them really cheap to have a go at growing them out and I am happy with most of the others even though I know that they are loaded with worms now. Im looking at it as a challenge. I will probably give 3-4 away as soon as I get em better, they will never be good looking fish. the one in the pic I noticed has a screwed up gill plate too. his eyes are too large and he just looks bad, he should have been culled.

[Sean Buehrle]

When using prazipro.

should I do a 100% waterchange then add more prazi.

Or just leave the same tankwater with the original dose of prazi for 48 hours.

And is this just a one time thing or should I do it again after the 48 hours.

And can/should I dose them with metro while Im at it.

Thanks

[Eddie]

You can leave the water for 48 hours. ;)


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[Hsunami]

hows ur discus coming?

[Sean Buehrle]

hows ur discus coming?hello

well they do look alot better after doing a couple 100% water changes these past two days. They are showing some promise as far as wanting to eat. Ive been teasing them with my finger in the tank and they are swarming it. Ive been holding a variety of frozen foods in the tank and they are goin after it pretty well but most just spit it out.

Im hatching some baby brine in hopes they will eat them even though its an extremly small food for fish thier size.

Ive purchased every available fish food and its a no go in terms of a likeable food. even though im totally against live foods Im contemplating ordering some live worms just to get them some nutrition going and deal with any consequeses later.

There are 2 fish in there that I should just destroy but havnt done it yet. I probably will today at water change time. Im going to look at thier innards and see if i can match up any known diseases to microscopic pics of diseases on this site.

Whats most likely going to happen is a hail mary with the ones that are eating going to a sterile tank and the rest Ill leave and give em some time.

sucks, : )

[Eddie]

Give them some time, Prazi can throw the fish off food.


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[Sean Buehrle]

Give them some time, Prazi can throw the fish off food.


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Will do

[Eddie]

How are they doing?


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[Sean Buehrle]

How are they doing?


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hello

5 of them are doing good. 3 are showing promise as far as eating goes. 2 more I did a seal team six on.

I decided to take the 2 small sickly ones out and gave them a quick end because they were just sitting at the top of the tank and really looking bad.

The way I see it is that they were a threat to the others that were improving and since they were so far gone It was better to cull them.

The 3 that Im saying have improved are at least trying to eat. They get down there with the others and are picking at food and I can see that thier bellies are bulging a little bit after feeding time, so they must be getting something. there is 1 in there that is kinda being a bully and chasing everyone off. and they are all keeping him busy because they all sneak back in to get some food.

At water change time yesterday I noticed 1 fresh worm in the tank that 1 of them passed, the reason im saying a fresh worm is because it was a darker colored worm and it wasnt mushy. The worm looked like a mix between a blackworm and a leach bout an inch long half the thickness of a pencil lead, grey in color.
Ive seen others in the tank floating around that were a white color, mucousy looking too.

Some are picky eaters,and some will even eat flake food. When im home I keep quite a variety of food in there for them to pick at and remove the rest at night when the lights go out just to keep good water quality.

Im looking for a good beefheart recipe to make and would appreciate it if you could point me to one that most fish like. I have been thinking about getting some of hans's food but have been holding out till I get some fish from him this summer.

most of The poop in the tank looks good, its dark colored and solid, LOL good looking fish poop.

They are not cowering in the corner at waterchange time either, they are acting a little better.

Over all, they are doing better but I dont think they are cured. Ill just keep blasting them with water I suppose.

Thoughts?

[Eddie]

Live tapeworms are still pale in color so I'm not sure where that dark worm came from. Was it reddish?


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[Sean Buehrle]

Live tapeworms are still pale in color so I'm not sure where that dark worm came from. Was it reddish?


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It was grey colored and I could see thru its body, it did look like it had some sort of food inside it. I had it on a microscope slide and I held it up to the light and it definately had food inside of it. it was darker colored on its insides as I looked thru its body with a bright light. when I get another one ill take a pic of it. I have access to a camera that has a macro shot on it now.

[TURQ64]

I'm second guessing for eddie here, but I would guess he was wondering if it was darker for ID purposes; if it's dark, it could be callamanus, but not if it's clear-ish...Gary

[Sean Buehrle]

I'm second guessing for eddie here, but I would guess he was wondering if it was darker for ID purposes; if it's dark, it could be callamanus, but not if it's clear-ish...Gary

nope it was greyish looking but had brown inside of it.

Im wondering if I should worm em with something else too. something like levamisole.

[Melissa]

nope it was greyish looking but had brown inside of it.

Im wondering if I should worm em with something else too. something like levamisole.

I was thinking you may want to try levamisole... Maybe they have more than one kind of worm giving them problems eh? Prazi is only for cestodes, right Eddie?

[Eddie]

I was thinking you may want to try levamisole... Maybe they have more than one kind of worm giving them problems eh? Prazi is only for cestodes, right Eddie?

Yup, that is right.


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[Sean Buehrle]

Yup, that is right.


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Ok I'll look at the shops tomorrow and see what's available.
Any brand name stuff that's usually in pet shops I should be looking for ?. I'm kinda thinking that too. There are a couple of them that are way fat and not really eating. I'll bet those buggers are just loaded with
Em. were gonna find out. Thanks guys.

[Eddie]

You won't find deworming products in the lfs. You can get levamisole from most farm feed stores.

If your fish eat flakes, the deworming flake from Angel Plus is excellent.


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[Sean Buehrle]

Im pretty sure goin the flakes route would not work, they are pretty picky it seems.

Hey would you guys tell me which of these would be better to buy.

The powder or the tablets. It says the amount of ingredients in both. I just dont know which would be easyer for the amount to gallons ratio.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/586.html

Thanks for the help guys.

[Eddie]

The powder!


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[Sean Buehrle]

Hey

Ive been looking all over the place on here for the correct dosage for this levamisole and there is conflicting info on the subject, mostly because of the amount of levamisole in the powdered form compared to the tablet form.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/586.html

The powder contains 7.5 grams of Levamisole and im completely stumped on how to use it.

I dont have it yet but expect it in 2-3 days.

Thanks alot.

[Sean Buehrle]

well I treated them for 24 hours on the levamiasole.

Its been 3 days since the treatment and the only thing that has changed is that the ones that were not eating and looked a little bloated are not bloated anymore.

They still pick at food and spit it out. they are always hiding.

I did not see any worms at all. I did see more white stringy poop though.

I treated my tank with 2.5 grams of 7.5 % levamiasole per 20 gallons. Its about the best dosage I could find anywhere that was clear.

The tank got milky looking after about 6 hours and the fish were clearly stressed, so I think they got a good dose of it.

Some of these fish clearly want to eat, but just spit everything out. Im thinking they are hooked on blackworms, and Im here to tell you Im not buying any. I completely believe they carry parasites and do nothing but damage healthy fish. Thats a topic for another day though.

Im wondering if I should just ask around if anyone wants them and letting them know they are sick, or just destroy them.

Its only a matter of time beforer the others get sick too, and it will be a total loss.

[jpdevol]

The initial pics show cestodes IMO. They should be cleared now. If they have continued to shun food and have white string feces, flagellates are also a possibility or perhaps a GI infection from the Cestodes. In either case, I would now dose Metronidazole in the water at 40mg/gal.

[Sean Buehrle]

Im thinking so too.

Im going to go buy a smaller tank tomorrow to do the metro treatment in and blaze my tank with chlorox and start over with it. break out the ammonia and cycle some new filters.

Im going to rely on massive water changes to avoid ammonia/nitrite, no filters, just an airstone.

And look at this as a lesson learned.

Thanks for all the help.

[jpdevol]

I don't know that the total disinfection is necessary, but that is your call. You can get a "jump start" on the filters if you order "active" filters from Angelfish+ http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSponge.htm

[Sean Buehrle]

Ok so ive finally got my 100% metro from angels plus and gave em the first days dose and I find this laying on the bottom of my tank today.

Its either a worm they dropped or possibly was in with the hikari frozen bloodworms I fed them earlier today.

Most of the fish are alot better and eating, they have normal looking poop but 2 are still in the same shape.

I took this pic of what was in the bottom of the tank tonight. its about .75 inches long and about half the diameter of a pencil lead. its brown and sorta looks like a small leach. what do you guys think.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv225/seanndenise1/IMG_0003.jpg

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv225/seanndenise1/IMG_0002.jpg

[Sean Buehrle]

I also have a question on the metro dosage from angels plus. this is what is on the container but it seems like a very weak dosage. it is 100% metro though.

Dose at 1/4 tsp per 40 gallons. Re-treat every 24 hours for 10 days. Do a minimum 25% water change before each retreatment.


Should I up the dosage?

My temp is at 92 right now.

[Sean Buehrle]

Bump

[Hsunami]

hope someone can help you sean. Good luck with your fish. bump

[judy]

follow the package directions. if it is 100% metro, it is very strong stuff.

[Sean Buehrle]

Ok thanks judy. I called the guy at angels plus and he gave me some advice to jack my heat up to 97 for 10 days. He said flagellates thrive at 96 but die at 97. Im trying to figure out how to get water that hot. .

Ive been looking at titanium heaters but havnt pulled the trigger yet.

The fish are eating and i found some info on food dosage so i whipped em up some bloodworms and they ate it pretty quick and seem ok.

They really are doing better and i can easily notice growth on some of them. So things are looking up for for
Them.
Im looking for some 55gal barrels this week so i can really blast em with as much water as i want in the future and for any future additions.

Things are looking up, im glad i had everyones help here, thanks.

[judy]

I really wouldn't crank the temp that high. I've read flagellates can survive even 98 degrees... whether that's true or not, I don't know. Warmer water will speed up the fish metabolism for sure, though, and perhaps help it recover more quickly, but higher than 94 and you're just asking for trouble, I think (that's opinion based on no facts at all, just an uneasy feeling that much more heat can't be good...). And of your guys ared oing better with your present treatment regimen, maybe just stick to that and see how it goes for a week or so...

[ericatdallas]

Sean, I think I had the same thing in my tank. Did you see it in the gravel? It didn't seem to like light. It didn't seem to adversely effect the discus or other fish but it was creeping me out. I put it up on this site but no one was able to definitively ID it and so I went to a few other sites also with no luck.

What did I do? Well I just removed all the fish and 'nuked' the tank. I knew worms didn't receive salts very well so I put a bunch of epsom salt (5 tablespoons per gallon) and sodium chloride in there (also 5 tablespoons per gallon). Then I put untreated water (so chlorinated) and turn the heater off. It killed all the worms because within a few days, I saw their bloated tubular bodies sticking out of the gravel. I then emptied the tank. It hasn't reoccurred.

I decided to go with levamisole, but I was waiting for it to arrive and thought I would try something simpler in the meantime. I decided not to treat and left the tank empty for about a month with just plants and a pleco. It seems to be fine and no sight of the worms.

My thread is here, Anyone know what kind of worms these are? planaria? (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?85989-Anyone-know-what-kind-of-worms-these-are-planaria&)

Here's what mine looked like,

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64917&d=1297914133

[Sean Buehrle]

Sean, I think I had the same thing in my tank. Did you see it in the gravel? It didn't seem to like light. It didn't seem to adversely effect the discus or other fish but it was creeping me out. I put it up on this site but no one was able to definitively ID it and so I went to a few other sites also with no luck.

What did I do? Well I just removed all the fish and 'nuked' the tank. I knew worms didn't receive salts very well so I put a bunch of epsom salt (5 tablespoons per gallon) and sodium chloride in there (also 5 tablespoons per gallon). Then I put untreated water (so chlorinated) and turn the heater off. It killed all the worms because within a few days, I saw their bloated tubular bodies sticking out of the gravel. I then emptied the tank. It hasn't reoccurred.


My thread is here, Anyone know what kind of worms these are? planaria? (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?85989-Anyone-know-what-kind-of-worms-these-are-planaria&)

Here's what mine looked like,

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64917&d=1297914133That worm does look similar, I only seen two and its a bare tank. Im really thinking that they came from the hikari fbw because the worming has been done for a week or so.
the camellanus worms kinda are pin shaped while the worms we seen were more like a leach.

I dunno, at any rate most are doing pretty good now.

[judy]

leech is exactly what I was thinking...

[mmorris]

I'm so sorry to read of your troubles, Sean. What did the seller have to say when you told him about this?

[ericatdallas]

That worm does look similar, I only seen two and its a bare tank. Im really thinking that they came from the hikari fbw because the worming has been done for a week or so.
the camellanus worms kinda are pin shaped while the worms we seen were more like a leach.

I dunno, at any rate most are doing pretty good now.

I don't use hikari FBW (or any frozen food for that matter), but I did add new plants in... The one above looked exactly like yours when it was moving. I took that picture right after I emptied the bucket so it was hanging on for dear life. It managed to stay stuck on the bottom of the bucket.

[ericatdallas]

Hey, take a look at this video... I think the color is off (from the camera) but the movement and shape are identical (to mine) at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnCshgWf_Ig

[Sean Buehrle]

I'm so sorry to read of your troubles, Sean. What did the seller have to say when you told him about this?

He just said he would look into it and take care of it. Not only were the fish sick with parasites they were stunted to a certain degree. Out of 11, 3 have a decent shape but nothing to brag about. After all the meds i purchased the cost went up considerably. I treated them with salt,prazipro twice, levamisole and am still feeding them metro.

Today they are eating like pigs. They even eat flake food which ive never owned a discus that would.

Ive never really had to deal with any sick discus before and this was a mindbender for me. Which is why you wont find me in here giving much advice beyond suggesting a bigger waterchange.
Im really glad the people in here were around to help. They gave me some good info and the fish pulled thru.
Thx for asking.

[Sean Buehrle]

Hey, take a look at this video... I think the color is off (from the camera) but the movement and shape are identical (to mine) at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnCshgWf_Ig

That looks the same as mine too but mine was dead. My fish are eating prettygood now. Im considering buying some of that medicated food eddie suggested from angels plus, just to make sure they are worm free.

Ill tell ya this, it really takes the fun out of it when you have sick fish, but it is an experience to learn from at the same time.

Tonight i found a actinic bulb on clearance at petsmart for 6 bucks.
Along with the 10k bulb in my light it looks pretty sweet.

[Disgirl]

That is a leech! Ick! Probably came in with live food or plants.
Barb