I am going to lose my hair!!!

[christian1971]

I thought I would check with DrsFostersmith about the filter and water changes. The tech stated that for discus a 10-20% water change per month was good. Too much a water change is detrimental to the beneficial bacteria. What the ***k

[zchauvin]

I thought I would check with DrsFostersmith about the filter and water changes. The tech stated that for discus a 10-20% water change per month was good. Too much a water change is detrimental to the beneficial bacteria. What the ***k

Lol I know of someone who does that, the lfs by my house. You know the one full of stunted black pitiful discus. Yeap.

[moon_knight1971]

Ya take that with a grain of salt. Depending on the age of your discus, water changes can go from daily -weekly. Monthly is just asking for problems lol

[zchauvin]

2nd that and hope they don't get sick or your raising them because then that shot to 2x daily wc

[Darrell Ward]

20% water change per month in a closed tank is unacceptable for any creature, discus or not.

[ericatdallas]

My wife used to work at a LFS when she was a teenager and for a while, everytime I changed the water 80% she says, "aren't you worried about the bacteria". She still kind of looks worried when I change 75-80% but just stays quiet.

It's just what was passed on down from previous employees/supervisors. I would recommend you ask breeders what they do... chances are, if they are breeding and making money selling a particular fish, they know all the best practices and all the minimums you can get away with.

I also never trust anyone that gives a matter-of-fact piece of advice without regard to the situation. You might get away with 10-20% a month in a very large tank, low bio-load, planted.

[zchauvin]

My wife used to work at a LFS when she was a teenager and for a while, everytime I changed the water 80% she says, "aren't you worried about the bacteria". She still kind of looks worried when I change 75-80% but just stays quiet.

It's just what was passed on down from previous employees/supervisors. I would recommend you ask breeders what they do... chances are, if they are breeding and making money selling a particular fish, they know all the best practices and all the minimums you can get away with.

I also never trust anyone that gives a matter-of-fact piece of advice without regard to the situation. You might get away with 10-20% a month in a very large tank, low bio-load, planted.

so you think a say 300g tank with alot of plants and say 10 discus would be fine doing wc of 30g would be acceptable every 30 days??? im not the smartest but i wouldnt want to live in my food/crap for 30 days.

[ericatdallas]

so you think a say 300g tank with alot of plants and say 10 discus would be fine doing wc of 30g would be acceptable every 30 days??? im not the smartest but i wouldnt want to live in my food/crap for 30 days.

Like I said, I don't give advice in absolutes when there are a lot of variables. What's a "large" tank and what's a low bio-load? Who says I think 30G per Discus is a low bioload? Maybe I think it's 100G per Discus. What you can get away with depends on your plants and your artificial filtering. It's about knowing the load and your system.

Do I think there are setups that it's okay to keep adult Discus and only change 10-20% water? Yep, sure do. Do I think it's ideal. No, fresh water is always going to be better. But someone who is concientious of the right balance and understands the risks is preferable to someone who blindly follows advice. Most city aquariums recycle their water with minimal actual new water. Their filtration is a lot more sophisticated than ours though.

Use the philoosophy of Atlanta's aquarium, "All Georgia Aquarium exhibits are closed systems in which the water is filtered, treated, as required, and returned to the exhibit. The Aquarium recycles and reuses as much water as possible within the limits of providing our animals with the best care."

Reuse the water as much as possible within the limits of providing the best care. That's the key.

With proper filtration, your fish aren't living in their crap. It can be mechanically removed. My planted tank had 0/0/0 in the Ammonia/Nitrates/Nitrites even though I dosed with the latter two on a regular basis.

[zchauvin]

Gotcha :) I hoped you weren't simply suggesting that a minute wc was acceptable :))

[ericatdallas]

Gotcha :) I hoped you weren't simply suggesting that a minute wc was acceptable :))

If you use a drip system, a minute WC is acceptable given a sufficient rate :)

[strawberryblonde]

With proper filtration, your fish aren't living in their crap. It can be mechanically removed. My planted tank had 0/0/0 in the Ammonia/Nitrates/Nitrites even though I dosed with the latter two on a regular basis.

Very true! It all depends on the bio load, how thickly planted it is and what your mechanical filtration is like. I'd absolutely LOVE to have a lush, planted tank one of these days that only needs minimal WC on a monthly basis. I've seen it and done it in the past, but it's not going to happen for me any time soon.

I don't depend on advice for my WC regimen. I test my water params twice a day at this point and adjust WC's according to the numbers in the tank. On the other hand, it's good to use the advice found on these forums as a general idea of how much and how often to change water. A sort of average of sorts. =)

SB

[ericatdallas]

Very true! It all depends on the bio load, how thickly planted it is and what your mechanical filtration is like. I'd absolutely LOVE to have a lush, planted tank one of these days that only needs minimal WC on a monthly basis. I've seen it and done it in the past, but it's not going to happen for me any time soon.

I don't depend on advice for my WC regimen. I test my water params twice a day at this point and adjust WC's according to the numbers in the tank. On the other hand, it's good to use the advice found on these forums as a general idea of how much and how often to change water. A sort of average of sorts. =)

SB

Nothing wrong with following advice... it's blindly following advice without understanding the caveats and then passing that advice as gospel I criticize. I can't be the only one that received the advice, "For discus, you MUST have a RO filter". Once your start investigating, you realize that it's not necessarily true in most circumstances. Then when you ask the person that gave you that advice, you realize they have no experience with Discus at all but they heard it from a friend that heard it from another friend that read it on some forum from a guy who heard it from a friend that spoke to a breeder that has a friend that...

[zchauvin]

Nothing wrong with following advice... it's blindly following advice without understanding the caveats and then passing that advice as gospel I criticize. I can't be the only one that received the advice, "For discus, you MUST have a RO filter". Once your start investigating, you realize that it's not necessarily true in most circumstances. Then when you ask the person that gave you that advice, you realize they have no experience with Discus at all but they heard it from a friend that heard it from another friend that read it on some forum from a guy who heard it from a friend that spoke to a breeder that has a friend that...
Haha perfectly put

[strawberryblonde]

True true Eric. That was my whole point in saying that I take all the advice and research and then use it as an average of sorts when it comes to things like WC regimens. =)

I actually read that RO/DI for discus thing too and chased down the info because I just couldn't believe that it could be true. Getting into discus keeping is scary and confusing enough as it is. Rigid advice only makes it that much more difficult to figure out what you should do to have a healthy tank full of fish.

SB

[Jhhnn]

One thing I'm sure of is that no amount of water changing will harm the bacterial filter bed, provided it's done with properly conditioned water. Actual bacteria population will definitely be higher in a dirty tank, however, bet on it.

Another thing I'm sure of is that domestic discus will thrive in Denver tap water- KH ~85, GH ~145, PH 7.6-8.0. I may step up to a RO unit when and if I advance to breeding- not because they won't breed in tap water, they already try, but because hatch rates are supposedly better in softer water with lower PH. I'll know when I get there, right?

I also think it's a disservice to potential discus keepers to under emphasize water changes as a way to maintain discus health, particularly wrt growing discus. They need a lot of food to become the big beautiful specimens everybody wants, and that drives water quality thru the floor rather quickly. Live plants would help, I'm sure, but even with them and very advanced techniques like ozone, changing water is never a bad idea. Plan on doing a lot of it to be truly successful, and you may get by on less than expected.

[ericatdallas]

I also think it's a disservice to potential discus keepers to under emphasize water changes as a way to maintain discus health, particularly wrt growing discus. They need a lot of food to become the big beautiful specimens everybody wants, and that drives water quality thru the floor rather quickly. Live plants would help, I'm sure, but even with them and very advanced techniques like ozone, changing water is never a bad idea. Plan on doing a lot of it to be truly successful, and you may get by on less than expected.

I hope you weren't suggesting I'm under-emphasizing WCs? I made a casual remark which zchauvin responded to. I had to carefully qualify my statements at that point. Note, I stated "adult" discus in my response as well.

However, with that said, I think it's a disservice to an individual to not give them the benefit of the doubt by providing all the information and letting them make their own decisions.

Even in nature, there is a regular WC (rain) although you could view that as an advanced form of filtration.

[Jhhnn]

I hope you weren't suggesting I'm under-emphasizing WCs? I made a casual remark which zchauvin responded to. I had to carefully qualify my statements at that point. Note, I stated "adult" discus in my response as well.

However, with that said, I think it's a disservice to an individual to not give them the benefit of the doubt by providing all the information and letting them make their own decisions.

Even in nature, there is a regular WC (rain) although you could view that as an advanced form of filtration.

Not at all. People will obviously make their own decisions, regardless of what's said here. I just know that tending to the basics has served me well since coming back to discus 2 years ago, and I see changing a lot of water, staying well within the safe zone of water quality as a big part of that. The fish I've bought from Kenny, fish that came to me healthy, have stayed that way, grown quite large, and thrived with little to no fuss whatsoever. Could I do less of it? Probably, but I've gone to some trouble and expense to make it easy, and have no regrets doing that. I just try to emphasize what's worked for me, what I actually learned from some of the more diligent water changers here, like Eddie, and from the literature. Done well, changing water & siphoning off debris is never the wrong thing to do with growing teenage discus or adults, imho.

I intend to keep the discus I have for many years- I'm really very interesting in finding out how long they'll live under very good conditions, and how much pleasure I'll derive from that... 7-8 years, maybe longer? who knows?

[Darrell Ward]

How people choose to keep their fish is their business. It's their money. However, water changes do more than give the fish "clean water". It also replaces valuable minerals that fish need and "use up" in a closed system. This is the reason pure RO water needs to be remineralized in some form. Normal filtration alone is not going to do that.

[Bud]

hmmm....I thought I read somewhere,(or maybe heard it from a guy,who heard it from a guy,who..........:) )that the amount of bacteria in the water pales in comparison to the amount in the sand/gravel,hydro sponges,prefilters and internal sponges(and or course bio media).I change 100% a day,using advise of the successful keepers on this forum,and my fish are growing very fast!Think Ill stick with that regimine.