Glass smashing with fear

[Scott293]

These are my new yellows. Pics taken 1 hour after adding to my tank last night. They have more color this morning.

http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/...Yellows006.jpg
http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/...Yellows004.jpg
http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/...Yellows001.jpg

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started. These are new 3" yellows that I just purchased yesterday. I know this is early but they acted the same way in his tank. He had about (20) 3" fish in a bottom tank and I was amazed how they could all hide behind and under a sponge filter. He said they are skiddish because they don't like that bottom tank. I laid on his floor and had to look at them as they swam with fear from behind one filter to behind the other filter, with no light on top of the tank, just the light in his room. Now in my tank, this morning they have more yellow color and are actually looking pretty nice. But they are so skiddish I'm afraid they wont come out of it. I am going to ask for some help on this forum on how to get them out of that because I had some discus like that back in the 80's that I couldn't get to stop hiding. I fed them a little frozen worms this morning and they had no interest. They are where I can see them now and one of them came out from behind the filter and ate a little off of the bottom of the tank. As I was typing earlier I heard bump bump bump and turned to see them both flying around the 40 gal tank running into the glass. No idea what got them startled. I think I am going to be happy with these fish if they stop this skiddish thing. The rest of my fish eat out of my hand and are always at the front of the tank screaming feed me. These two are in a quarantine tank.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds) At this point they are only skiddish. It looks as if they will cautiously eat then run back to their hiding spot. This is early observations and I have not seen their fecal matter yet. They look healthy based on their appearance.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment. I am afraid to start the medications for a quarantine process as of yet because I am wanting them to settle in a bit.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish Tank size is 40 gal high that has been cycling for 1.5 weeks. (2) fish



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water? I change 25% twice per week in my other tanks but this tank has not been changed yet. I have one sponge filter and a Fluval 405 in this tank with a bare bottom. This is water that has been aged as it had no fish. The filters were started on another tank to get biological buildup first.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __82___

- ph __6.8___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __0-5__

- well water __not well water__

- municipal water __municipal straight from tap__ I don't even de-clorinate the tap water because it seems to have no harmful effect on my fish but it may have an effect on other organisms that I do not want there. Just my theory. I would rather condition my fish so that they love straight tap water. Breeding pair and eggs, that's a different story. I do not have a hardness reading on my water but as much ro as he was using I expect mine is not the same.

7. Any new fish/plants added recently There are no plants in this tank and these fish are new as of last night at 8pm. I did lower the ph in the tank to the ph that they were used to which was 6.8. They came from well water 50% and ro the other 50% which he said he aged.

[Scott293]

Here is a video

http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/j439/scott293/?action=view&current=VID00007.mp4

[TURQ64]

I didn't see any 'glass smashing with fear' in the video, but they just look 'new' to me. I will say that all of the reflections going on confused me, so I'd bet it's doing the same for them...JMO

[Scott293]

That was one of their best most at ease journeys out from behind the sponge filter. Believe me if I would have peeped a noise or bumped something you would think they are trying to smash through the glass. It looks like I need to wipe down the front of my tank. Those Flip video recorders are really nice.

[roundfishross]

is the tank bottom painted? if not that can make them uncomfortable.

[Scott293]

is the tank bottom painted? if not that can make them uncomfortable.

Yes the tank bottom is white

[Fern]

I think the problem is the Fluval filter. At the beginning of the video it appears they are struggling pass a flow of water. So naturally they are going to find a peaceful place to hide, behind the sponge filter........too much water circulation in your tank.

[judy]

"4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish Tank size is 40 gal high that has been cycling for 1.5 weeks. (2) fish "

if that tank has only been cycling for 1.5 weeks, it is not even half way through its cycle. I hope you will immediately start doing 90% water changes twice a day to get these fish through that cycle... even with your filters pre-seeded there will be a cycle. it may or may not be severe.


"- municipal water __municipal straight from tap__ I don't even de-clorinate the tap water because it seems to have no harmful effect on my fish but it may have an effect on other organisms that I do not want there. Just my theory. I would rather condition my fish so that they love straight tap water. "

There is no such thing as a fish that loves the chlorine in straight tap water. Their stressed behaviour may well be early signs of chlorine poisoning, which is ultimately fatal. How hard would it be to put an eyedropperful of Prime into the tank when you change your water?

This explanation from another site is concise and accurate: "Chlorine Poisoning: Free chlorine, present in most tap water, is toxic to fish. Chlorine affects the gills and causes death by asphyxiation. Chlorine can be removed by boiling the water, letting the water stand for a few days, vigorously aerating the water, or by adding a water conditioner."

[Skip]

How many fish un tank..?
Hiw did u lower ph?

[Skip]

Sometimes it takes a wrek for them to settle and minimum of 6 fish in a group.. They feel safe in groups

[ericatdallas]

Scott, I use sodium thiosulfate. I can give you a jug pre-mixed if you are in Dayton area, no charge. I think each jug will treat something like 25,000 gallons and cost me like $3 or $4.

[jpdevol]

The fish were stressed in their previous location and continue to be stressed now. My worry; a chronically stressed fish will eventually become a sick fish.

I do think you need to rethink your water routine. Test the GH, it is likely 200ppm+-, it will be difficult to keep a stable 6.8PH with that GH. If you can't mix RO, it may be best to let the PH go to its normal level, rather than having it fluctuate. Ditto on aging and/or Chlorine removal. I'd guess that your tap water will test approx. 1ppm Chlorine, although it will dissipate over time depending on aeration ( a swimming pool is 1.5ppm)

If they want to hide, give them some hiding spots. Several large plastic plants with built-in weights (I like corkscrew Val.) That and low light should make them more comfortable. Given history, it will take time for them to lose skittishness.

[Scott293]

I think the problem is the Fluval filter. At the beginning of the video it appears they are struggling pass a flow of water. So naturally they are going to find a peaceful place to hide, behind the sponge filter........too much water circulation in your tank.

Thanks to your suggestion I put a diffuser on the Fluval filter which cut it down a little

[Scott293]

"4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish Tank size is 40 gal high that has been cycling for 1.5 weeks. (2) fish "

if that tank has only been cycling for 1.5 weeks, it is not even half way through its cycle. I hope you will immediately start doing 90% water changes twice a day to get these fish through that cycle... even with your filters pre-seeded there will be a cycle. it may or may not be severe.

90% water changes? Lets just start a new cycle every day...

Stressed behavior early signs of chlorine poisoning???? Did you not read what I wrote above Judy? They were acting this way in 50% ro 50% well water with daily water changes where I purchased them LAST NIGHT getting them home here less than 24 hrs ago. I have not changed my water in 3 days and there is no chlorine in it at all. Before acusing me of killing fish with ignorance please read first Judy.


"- municipal water __municipal straight from tap__ I don't even de-clorinate the tap water because it seems to have no harmful effect on my fish but it may have an effect on other organisms that I do not want there. Just my theory. I would rather condition my fish so that they love straight tap water. "

There is no such thing as a fish that loves the chlorine in straight tap water. Their stressed behaviour may well be early signs of chlorine poisoning, which is ultimately fatal. How hard would it be to put an eyedropperful of Prime into the tank when you change your water?

This explanation from another site is concise and accurate: "Chlorine Poisoning: Free chlorine, present in most tap water, is toxic to fish. Chlorine affects the gills and causes death by asphyxiation. Chlorine can be removed by boiling the water, letting the water stand for a few days, vigorously aerating the water, or by adding a water conditioner."

90% water changes? Lets just start a new cycle every day...

Stressed behavior early signs of chlorine poisoning???? Did you not read what I wrote above Judy? They were acting this way in 50% ro 50% well water with daily water changes where I purchased them LAST NIGHT getting them home here less than 24 hrs ago. I have not changed my water in 3 days and there is no chlorine in it at all. Before accusing me of killing fish with ignorance please read first Judy.

I don't always give them tap water without conditioning it. I use Start Right by Jungle which removes chlorine and chloramines. I do the straight tap water once every 2 weeks. I should have clarified that. Again, when I do that it has no apparent effect on the fish. I watch for them to be breathing quicker which would be a sign of asphyxiation.

[Scott293]

How many fish un tank..?
Hiw did u lower ph?

Just the two fish. I know that is not enough in a grow tank and I plan on getting some more yellows. I lowered the ph with with a Jungle product called pH decreaser. I looked to see what it is and couldn't find it.

[Scott293]

Sometimes it takes a wrek for them to settle and minimum of 6 fish in a group.. They feel safe in groups

I guess I'll have to get the little gangstas some company soon. But if I remember right, when I had this experience years ago, I thought I had put some skiddish fish in with not skiddish and they all got that way in just a day or two. The ones that weren't skiddish freaked out with these maniacs flying around the tank.

[Scott293]

Scott, I use sodium thiosulfate. I can give you a jug pre-mixed if you are in Dayton area, no charge. I think each jug will treat something like 25,000 gallons and cost me like $3 or $4.

That would be awesome Eric. I'll take you up on that some time. This stuff I got costs that much for 8 oz

[judy]

sorry, what you wrote sounded like you just dump tap water in the tank without conditioning it.
re "90% water changes? Lets just start a new cycle every day..." water changes do not cause new cycles. Nitrifying bacteria don't live in the water, they live in the filters and on tank walls. plants and ornaments. Breeding owners will change 100% of their water daily or twice daily. The two large changes would ensure no ammonia build up while the cycle happens.
Rather than using a product like that to decrease your Ph, you would be far better off just leaving them in stable Ph,even if you feel it is high. Many of those products cause what's called "Ph bounce"-- they drop the Ph rapidly and it bounces back up within a day due to the water chemistry referred to by JPdevol..

[Scott293]

The fish were stressed in their previous location and continue to be stressed now. My worry; a chronically stressed fish will eventually become a sick fish.

I do think you need to rethink your water routine. Test the GH, it is likely 200ppm+-, it will be difficult to keep a stable 6.8PH with that GH. If you can't mix RO, it may be best to let the PH go to its normal level, rather than having it fluctuate. Ditto on aging and/or Chlorine removal. I'd guess that your tap water will test approx. 1ppm Chlorine, although it will dissipate over time depending on aeration ( a swimming pool is 1.5ppm)

If they want to hide, give them some hiding spots. Several large plastic plants with built-in weights (I like corkscrew Val.) That and low light should make them more comfortable. Given history, it will take time for them to lose skittishness.

That's my worry too. I want to nip this in the bud as quick as I can. My ph is 7, which is not bad, but I knew going into this, because I asked, the water that these fish came from was at 6.8. I adjusted my water to them and then spent 2 hrs acclimating them. I was trying to make this the least stressful that I could on them. I know my water is probably going back to 7 in a day. But it would be a more gradual change for them. (I just checked and it's back at 7). I did add some plants like you suggested. The light is either on or off. I am trying to find a way to cover it or part of it. They were used to a tank with no light on the bottom row. I am thinking maybe I should just turn their light out for a few days and see if that helps.

[ericatdallas]

I've seen two different schools of thought on hiding places... some people say, "no worries" and other people say, "let them get used to it." So this is from my personal (in)experience...

I had juvie discus that were constantly hiding and I thought, okay, they're intimidated so let them... well it got to the point where they would hide and not get food. They ended up getting stunted.

Take two: new discus also started hiding. I let them in a BB tank with hiding places. They got over it.

There are a lot of variables... many of them having nothing to do with hiding places that can cause discus to get stunted and become stressed. Although I lean on the side of not letting them hide but eliminating things that could startle them...

Like: reducing lighting, painting side of tank, no sudden movements around them, putting them in a more quiet low traffic area, etc.

[Darrell Ward]

That's my worry too. I want to nip this in the bud as quick as I can. My ph is 7, which is not bad, but I knew going into this, because I asked, the water that these fish came from was at 6.8. I adjusted my water to them and then spent 2 hrs acclimating them. I was trying to make this the least stressful that I could on them. I know my water is probably going back to 7 in a day. But it would be a more gradual change for them. (I just checked and it's back at 7). I did add some plants like you suggested. The light is either on or off. I am trying to find a way to cover it or part of it. They were used to a tank with no light on the bottom row. I am thinking maybe I should just turn their light out for a few days and see if that helps.

A PH difference from 6.8 to 7.0 is really nothing to worry about. I would just leave it at 7. Hell, I would have "dropped and plopped" these fish. Healthy fish should adjust to minor changes without problems. I would just leave the light off for a while, and give them a few days to adjust. Adding more fish to form a true group may help as well. For future reference, it's never a good idea IMO to buy any discus acting a bit weird. Good luck.

[Scott293]

Well I put some plants in the tank and apparently they think the plants are big monsters. If they come out from behing the filter far enough to see the plants there goes the glass bashing again. Dang I feel sorry for these little guys. I just put some more frozen worms in there and they are ignoring it. I think with the tank light out they might not see them. They both ate a little this morning. I would test the hardness of the water, but again they acted like this in his water. The rest of his fish were not this way. I even mentioned that, and he said they didn't like that bottom row tank. I think if I was to take the chance and put them with my other fish they would never get to eat, being with those discus/piranhas.

This tank is pretty much in a low traffic area. It's about 10' from my computer desk in my computer room. I can watch them while I sit here writing. One of them will venture out after about an hour of hiding and the other one will follow slowly. And in no time one of them moves a little quick and then there they both go darting around until they both make it back to behind the filter. I guess I better find something to put around 3 sides of the tank. I mean the two long sides and one short side leaving one end open. I can't tell that it's anything outside of the tank that is scaring them though.

[strawberryblonde]

There can be a lot of startling, darting and smashing in the first couple of days. I found that it only takes ONE jumpy fish to cause an entire herd of them to go dashing for cover when they are in new surroundings. LOL

So these adorable little guys of yours have a lot of new adjustments to make, huh? I think adding a couple of plants is good, though if they didn't have them in the old tank it might take a few days for them to get used to the oddly shaped monsters in the water.

Keeping lights off is a great idea! I turned my lowest level light on for short periods for the first three days and then shut it back off to give them a few hours of rest before turning it back on. Even lighting from your office might be enough to do the trick for now.

Food....<sigh> Mine were very picky about eating the first 3 days and if they got startled by my one flighty fish, forget about it, the herd was in the back of the tank taking cover behind my sword plant and the food was long forgotten.

Thankfully, it all wore off fairly quickly. I just kept doing my thing...walking past the tank, vacuuming the carpet, changing the water, playing with the dog in the same room and by the end of the week they were all sitting at the front of the tank eyeballing me and begging for food.

Oh, oh, oh! The other thing that really seemed to help was to turn on the tv and leave the sound fairly low, then turn it up a bit next time I walked to the kitchen, then back down again and so on and so forth. I did that for 2 days. At first they all hid each time the picture changed on the tv and then they eventually gave up the hiding and just ignored it.

These days the dog "helps" me with WC's and that includes sticking her nose on the glass to watch them, wagging and banging her tail against the cabinet and occasionally barking at them (usually when she can't find them in the tank). The discus don't budge from the front of the tank even with all her antics!

So hang in there and keep gradually introducing them to lights, sounds and movement and hopefully they'll come around.

SB

[Scott293]

I hope you are right SB

[Scott293]

OK, I put velcrow on the top of the tank and wrapped a doubled curtain with velcrow on the top around three sides of the tank leaving one small side open. That seems to have helped. They are not behind the filter now. They are in the corner across from the filter which is now the farthest from the open end. I will leave it like this for a few days until they get comfortable with this. Then I will open one long side, depending on how they are acting I might try the whole front. We'll see, I will keep you posted

[Scott293]

Well, They are still about the same. I changed 25% of the water yesterday and today. Since I can't sit here watching them I am not sure if they are eating. The short open side of the tank is not facing my way. They had food on the bottom of the tank when I left for work this morning and still had it there when I got home. The tank light has been off all day but the light in the room has been on.

[hedut]

Yes the tank bottom is white

are you sure you paint it or just cover? if you paint it should not appear like that. from what I see is you need more fish, Juvi should be better in group at least four fish.

[Scott293]

Yes I want to add fish but my other fish are not skiddish at all, not in the least bit. These are in a quarantine tank and I am a bit worried about putting my healthy fish with them. Even if all are healthy, even my fish would freak out with these two darting around in the tank running into the glass and hiding. Then my fish that I add to their tank would get that way. There were at least 20 of these guys in the 150 gallon tank where I purchased them. The whole tank was this way. It makes me think that adding fish is going to just make even more paranoid skitso fish.

The bottom of my tank is painted, the sides are covered with a curtain, white on the inside and no light gets through the thick fabric. Front and back and one side are covered, leaving only one small side open and they are still way in the back hiding behind the sponge filter. I got them Saturday night and they seem barely better if any.

[hedut]

And one more thing make sure that, that fish tank not at traffic place

[judy]

if all is well with the water parameters and the fish are healthy, perhaps they just need time... discus can go quite awhile without food. it could take a couple of weeks before they calm down, and they will probably start eating before then.

[Scott293]

OK, I fed some FRW and they came out and ate very cautiously but they did eat. When they noticed me peaking they went back behind the sponge but I can see they are gaining a bit of comfort. I agree, I think it's just going to take some time. My other discus have all eaten like piranhas a day after adding them to my tanks.

We have a cat that would not let a human touch her, so when we got her we'd wrap her in a towel so she couldn't shred us to pieces and we would pet her as she growled and tried to bite. Just about 4 days of that and she started easing up, and now she's the biggest lap cat you'd ever seen. Can't do these fish that way. I have to play this game on their terms.

[Scott293]

OK, They are doing fine now. They are eating out of my hands. I think these are going to be some pretty fish. I'm anxious to see them grow up.

[jpdevol]

Congratulations! Job wel done.

[strawberryblonde]

Woot woot! I'm so happy that it all worked out for you. =)