Why advertisers are allowed to be moderators in this forum?

[Astolfo]

isn't it unethical?
:confused:

I know I am going to get all kinds of $hit because I am a “newbie”, or this or that but at the end I think my concerns hold solid ground.

Yes, this site makes money by their sponsorship, but it is regular users that are the enablers.

I have noticed not just one or 2 threads closed when bad sellers/sponsors have been put out for everyone to see when they did not fulfill their side of the bargain.

This forum for the most part is an amazing source of information which I really value, but at the same time I find pretty dubious and troublesome when a sponsor is also the censor of what can be said and what can’t about other sponsors.

When a seller does not live up to their side of the bargain why protect them? Why is it that it is wrong to have people/buyers to present their side of a transaction that in many cases was initiated in this forum?


Why is it that posting a negative experience, backing it up and producing the evidence is a “bad” thing to do, have the buyer alienated and then thread closed by a moderator with definitely vested interest in one way or another?

My experience with the only transaction from a sponsor here was good and I said so; and nobody complained when I posted it, not even knowing if it is true or not.

Pretty scary if you ask me, and makes me weary of buying from the sponsors because if only the good stuff is allowed how do you know that you are buying and spending your hard earned and saved money with the right business?

If I were a reputable business, that draws clients from this site I would be pretty disappointed at the way customers (mine or not) get treated by the moderators and some people in this site.

[Skip]

Yep.. Ur kind off on ur virw point.. But I am driving at moment .. I will let others answer

[nc0gnet0]

Why should the fact that a member is a sponsor preclude him/her from being a moderator? Don't you want the best of the best in such positions? It is not like the moderators wield irrevocable power, that falls to Al himself. In regards to your example, IMO, having a sponsor monitoring a thread which deals with a complaint about another sponsor is more likely to yield a more evenly thought out response, as most sponsors have been on both sides of a deal gone bad. I have seen too many customers that thought they had been on the wrong end of a bad deal spout off before they had to have the chance to cool down. Such ill concieved posts can cause irreparable harm to a sponsors reputation, and soon, you won't have any sponsors, and then, you won't have any Simply Discus Website. Simply put, the open forum is not and should not be a place for unhappy customers to try and get thier pound of flesh from sponsor they are unhappy with.

Now, I can ask, why should a member that has been here less than 45 days be allowed to be critical of a system that has been implemented over the course of several years? :)

[Skip]

If u are really bothered.. Ask al.. He has final say

[zimmjeff]

alright fokes lets not hurt him. yet.

[ericatdallas]

Skip, watch the road, Simply Discus will be here when you are home, don't text and drive! ;)

[Skip]

lol multi tasking! Duh! winning!

[ericatdallas]

By the way, something isn't unethical just because the potential for abuse exists. To be unethical, you have to show that someone actually did something inconsistent with certain standards.

It would be unethical if sponsors indiscriminately deleted criticism of any or all sponsors. That's not the case at all from what I've seen. Not long ago, before you dropped by, a sponsor left because Al opened the forums to allow for a certain level of controlled criticism. I think he just wants any criticism to be controlled and professional. Not a free-for-all virtual assassination of someone's business. I don't want to speak for him as I'm sure he'll eventually answer though.

There's also a livestock review section. You just shouldn't be criticizing someone without first trying to work out your conflict offline. Then you should provide something relevant other than, "He sucks! Don't buy from him because he is a big A-hole!" Something more like, "I bought 8 fish from him and 4 arrived dead. He wouldn't answer my calls, my e-mails, or my PMs. Very poor communication. The other four fish are alive but are pooping tapeworms."

I don't think it was an unfair question to ask though. A new member certainly can provide perspective that people that have been here longer may not have seen. If a system is broken, then it's possible that all the people frustrated with it have left and only the clueless ones have stuck around. When I first came here, I wondered if Al was too draconian in his rules, but I've learned that he's fair in what he's asking for. Keep in mind, this forum doesn't have to allow freedom of expression. As a private virtual property, Al can choose as he pleases what he allows on this board. With that said, I think he allows for a lot of lattitude consistent with US/democratic ideals of expression.

[roclement]

Alstolfo,

I think you have a very valid point that holds true to other kinds of forums/comunities, like all the reef forums I belong to that are non-profits, etc. The Sponsors here that are also mods have been members of the community first, sponsors second and are people we all know, that participate in the threads, help when needed, and first and foremost love this community.
They also volunteer their time to moderate so in a sense they keep the forum running.

Al (the owner here) is very good about dealing with conflicts and he has final say in everything but rarely has (as far as I remeber) needed to over rule the mods for unethical behaviour. This is a tight community that defends itself, we all know each other and enjoy chats, helping, and sharing our fish stories and experiences.

Welcome aborad, you will have fun!

Rodrigo

[nc0gnet0]

I don't think it was an unfair question to ask though. A new member certainly can provide perspective that people that have been here longer may not have seen.

I should clarify that I did not make the statement that I did with the purpose to imply that a new member can't or shouldn't ask such questions, thus the reason for the smiley (hard to apply a tone of voice in this medium). It was intended to get the OP to look at things from a different perspective.

[Astolfo]

I simply posted this question because mostly I have come across users getting blasted by other members for posting what it appears to be honest complaints and then have the posts closed. And yes I do not agree with those just "you suck", "you etc..etc" but I was commenting more on those posts where the buyer had made real attempts to resolve the issues privately and produced the proof he/she had made an honest effort to resolve the issue, without getting any answers from the "seller", and then get blasted to then get the post closed by a moderator.
For me, the main purpose of joining a forum like this with my REAL name from the very beginning is to join a group of people that enjoys the same hobby I do, be honest and open without the need of a fake name.

@ nc0gnet0: trying answer your question. Frist, I do not know who is who, how things "work", or don't, owe favors, like or dislike anyone (yet); and I notice that a few members' comments are incredibly arrogant in nature which conflicts with the nature of any hobby. Second, I can learn about members by their answers and that will help me to which advise and opinions to respect. Nothing more telling than an answer to a simple, honest and well intentioned question.

[Skip]

Several of the closed post are because alot of people that do not have personal dealings with the seller start to chime in.. Either pro or con... So it gets closed.. And I never seen a mod close a thread that has reputation in question

[ericatdallas]

And yes I do not agree with those just "you suck", "you etc..etc" but I was commenting more on those posts where the buyer had made real attempts to resolve the issues privately and produced the proof he/she had made an honest effort to resolve the issue, without getting any answers from the "seller", and then get blasted to then get the post closed by a moderator.



The fact you can still read the thread shows that no one here is censuring anyone. You also stated it was the user getting blasted by other members (but not the moderators). This is going to be typical of any forum, where the users have their own opinion. In my limited time here, I've seen the users side with the member before. So it works both ways. I don't know what thread you are speaking up, but my bet is that the moderators closed it because it was getting out-of-hand, it wasn't productive any more, or the user didn't follow the rules. This is no different than any other forum. In fact, I saw a complaint here over one vendor here and the same person posted it in two other forums. Guess what? In all three forums that person had his thread locked because it wasn't productive any more and it caused divisiveness amongst the users. Locked but not deleted.

If you have a specific thread in mind, post the link, I'm sure one of us will be happy to identify what the reason was. I'm almost positive it was locked not because the thread was negatively targeting a sponsor but more for some other inappropriate action.

Even if I'm wrong, maybe you'll be brining something up to us that we weren't aware of and may have to scrutinize more :)

[kevin joseph]

eric your to smart for your own good. you would make a great moderator!.... and let us cuss each other out after we have to many drinks and decide argue about discus. im always so much smarter after a few drinks. i wish i remembered all my genius thoughts the next morning though.

[Bill63SG]

im always so much smarter after a few drinks.

+1.Just got out of the hottub,and you are a genius.

[brewmaster15]

isn't it unethical?
:confused:

I know I am going to get all kinds of $hit because I am a “newbie”, or this or that but at the end I think my concerns hold solid ground.

Yes, this site makes money by their sponsorship, but it is regular users that are the enablers.

I have noticed not just one or 2 threads closed when bad sellers/sponsors have been put out for everyone to see when they did not fulfill their side of the bargain.

This forum for the most part is an amazing source of information which I really value, but at the same time I find pretty dubious and troublesome when a sponsor is also the censor of what can be said and what can’t about other sponsors.

When a seller does not live up to their side of the bargain why protect them? Why is it that it is wrong to have people/buyers to present their side of a transaction that in many cases was initiated in this forum?


Why is it that posting a negative experience, backing it up and producing the evidence is a “bad” thing to do, have the buyer alienated and then thread closed by a moderator with definitely vested interest in one way or another?

My experience with the only transaction from a sponsor here was good and I said so; and nobody complained when I posted it, not even knowing if it is true or not.

Pretty scary if you ask me, and makes me weary of buying from the sponsors because if only the good stuff is allowed how do you know that you are buying and spending your hard earned and saved money with the right business?

If I were a reputable business, that draws clients from this site I would be pretty disappointed at the way customers (mine or not) get treated by the moderators and some people in this site.

Astolfo,
A moderator's job here is to enforce the forums rules and to assist the owner of this forum in decisions on this forum... we have a moderator forums where we discuss all things in group format....and as the owner of this forum I have last say on policies, and decisions. I find nothing unethical about our system here and we as a group always try to be fair. I chose Moderators based on character and I stand by their character 100%. As others here have said, moderators come from this community.... and not all moderators are sponsors... as a general rule our moderators do not even comment in buyer seller issues , unless there are forum rules being broken. When this happens, a thread may be closed or removed for discussion by our moderator staff and I or my fellow admins make the final decisions.


I have noticed not just one or 2 threads closed when bad sellers/sponsors have been put out for everyone to see when they did not fulfill their side of the bargain.
please do not lump bad seller transactions together with sponsor transactions..These are not synonymous here. This forum isn't a play ground for people to flame each other and sling mud...It has designated areas for feedback and ratings and rules govern these. This forum is moderated and we close any thread we feel is against forum rules or has run its course. As the forum's owner I stand by my right to run this forum as I think is best and in a manner that is generally accepted as a very fair system. If you do not agree with how the forum is run, that is fine with me... but when you log in you agree to accept it.


When a seller does not live up to their side of the bargain why protect them? Why is it that it is wrong to have people/buyers to present their side of a transaction that in many cases was initiated in this forum?...My experience with the only transaction from a sponsor here was good and I said so; and nobody complained when I posted it, not even knowing if it is true or not.

Pretty scary if you ask me, and makes me weary of buying from the sponsors because if only the good stuff is allowed how do you know that you are buying and spending your hard earned and saved money with the right business? Your comment is way off base here.... We don't protect any sponsors nor any sellers that have shown themselves to be unethical...and I have removed sponsors for their actions when necessary/ We have gone out of way to give people ways to share their experiences.... We have an i-trader rating system and live stock review section...This info is posted everywhere...It is for people to post the good and the bad transactions.... Its probably the fairest rating system you can ask for, but it depends on hobbyists using it.


If I were a reputable business, that draws clients from this site I would be pretty disappointed at the way customers (mine or not) get treated by the moderators and some people in this site. I have no idea what you are talking about here...
If you have an actual situation where you think something unethical was done by a moderator here..... then by all means bring it up to an Admin..

I'll be honest....My First impression when I read this thread was not too favorable....It would be nice if people actually gave admins here some respect and tried talking to them about their concerns..some do...I take those individuals as sincere... but when I see threads like this posted I tend to see a person not looking to understand the hows and whys of the forum, or to resolve an issue...I see a person looking to stir things up....muddy the waters, and in short act like a forum troll. I have no patience for these kinds of members.. Given you are new here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and go at this as if you are sincere.

Astolfo, You are welcome to discuss this issue with me in private if you are sincerely concerned here...which is how it should have been done initially. I have no problem with discussions of this nature...often members only see a fraction of the facts and theres much more to any issue.
Regards,
Al

[White Worm]

Hard to believe you have gathered all the experience needed in the short 30 days you have been registered here to decide that our sponsors are using censor powers above their rights and are out to restrict our opinions. I have been to other forums and only belong here because of the fact that the moderators here keep a respectable level of freedom with an equal amount of restrictions. After 5 years here, I have found that the balance created by Al (owner) has given Simply the best group of advice givers and the best quality discus available in the U.S. and abroad not to mention a high quality community that shares discus information. If anything, the moderators and sponsors are held to higher standards as the experts and there has been many removed because of inappropriate dealings or behavior. Stick around a little longer and you will see that Simply is not like other sites where moderators and members are permitted to wrecklessly slander others. Al has a strict list of rules here and if someone doesnt feel the need to follow them, he will swiftly and fairly communicate his requirements.

[April]

I was a mod from day one. Sponsor later. I think there's enough mods here if there was. A conflict of interest they would not get involved. Also we as sponsors have to be very ethical and work hard to remain sponsors. Al doesn't allow anyone to be a sponsor until he checks out references and feedback etc. As stated some have been removed. Al spends hours and hours of his own time to be sure we as sponsors and mods are the right fit.

[William Palumbo]

Would seem to me, if a moderator was a sponsor, he/she would have to personally uphold a higher standard, so I can not see any conflicts of interest. You have to be in good standing to be a moderator, and in good standing to be a sponsor...you have to be twice as good! All said, the forum runs well, and is the BEST Discus forum out there. Period....Bill

[ericatdallas]

I think overall, the OP has justifiable concern... In the end, it doesn't matter whether sponsors abuse their power or not (IMHO). This site is a great source of information. It's up to each individual to be dilligent in selecting a seller. I don't shop with the sponsors because I think they're the only reputable sellers that exist online. The ones I shop with have the balance of right price, right reputation, AND an added benefit of supporting a group of individuals who support this forum.

[brewmaster15]

I think overall, the OP has justifiable concern... In the end, it doesn't matter whether sponsors abuse their power or not (IMHO) Eric, I understand your POV... but I disagree.. It does matter very much.... It would matter to me as the owner of the forum, and to The Admins (Paul and Ryan) which help run it, the other moderators that put their heart into it, and the members that trust all of us involved in running this site... and lastly I think just the suggestion that a moderator who happens to be a sponsor has acted or would act inapproriately because they hold both positions doesn't sit well with me.. Why tarnish someones character like that? ..These individuals in question... Kenny, April, Dan, and Chad have done absolutely nothing ever to even have the doubt Raised.... On Contrary They have gone out of their way over the years to help this forum be the resource and community it is....so I think it does matter... and If I were any one of these people this thread would be seriously offensive to me.

People are free to have their opinions ...but If anyone here wants to suggest that Kenny,April, Dan or Chad has actually abused their power here without so much as a shred of proof....I'll be the first to put that individual in their place...and I am sorry, but there isn't is human being that doesn't have the potential to act unethical... but that doesn't mean they do. Instead of hypotheticals... I think people should judge by actions...and I have seen absolutely nothing here that would make me question any of our Moderators...whether they are also a seller/sponsor or not.

Regards,
al

[ericatdallas]

Eric, I understand your POV... but I disagree.. It does matter very much.... It would matter to me as the owner of the forum, and to The Admins (Paul and Ryan) which help run it, the other moderators that put their heart into it, and the members that trust all of us involved in running this site... and lastly I think just the suggestion that a moderator who happens to be a sponsor has acted or would act inapproriately because they hold both positions doesn't sit well with me.. Why tarnish someones character like that? ..These individuals in question... Kenny, April, Dan, and Chad have done absolutely nothing ever to even have the doubt Raised.... On Contrary They have gone out of their way over the years to help this forum be the resource and community it is....so I think it does matter... and If I were any one of these people this thread would be seriously offensive to me.

People are free to have their opinions ...but If anyone here wants to suggest that Kenny,April, Dan or Chad has actually abused their power here without so much as a shred of proof....I'll be the first to put that individual in their place...and I am sorry, but there isn't is human being that doesn't have the potential to act unethical... but that doesn't mean they do. Instead of hypotheticals... I think people should judge by actions...and I have seen absolutely nothing here that would make me question any of our Moderators...whether they are also a seller/sponsor or not.

Regards,
al

I guess I always get in trouble for speaking in hypotheticals... :) I wasn't implying that it happens or, that I want it to happen, that it could/should/would, or anything like that. My basic point was that, as a user of the forums (any), -IF- it happens, it's irrelevant because it's up to -THAT- user to use common sense and due diligence to select a vendor.

With that said, knowing the reputation of this forum and the people in it, I fully trust it as a reliable reference for a vendor/seller/sponsor.

I do agree with you (as should be reflected in my earlier post) that it's not appropriate to accuse anyone of wrongdoing without reason. The possibility of wrongdoing does not necessarily mean there is wrongdoing and it would be absurd to say it does. It also matters because many people trust in the credibility of this forum, the sponsors, and the users to make decisions that have very real impact in people's lives (their happiness and their wallets).

So to be clear... my statement was purely to emphasize that an intelligent buyer should ask questions and it's reasonable to have concerns but should investigate their options no matter what the reference. That's not the same as suggesting wrongdoing exists based on incomplete facts or lack of situational awareness.

[brewmaster15]

I guess I always get in trouble for speaking in hypotheticals... :) I wasn't implying that it happens or, that I want it to happen, that it could/should/would, or anything like that. My basic point was that, as a user of the forums (any), -IF- it happens, it's irrelevant because it's up to -THAT- user to use common sense and due diligence to select a vendor.

With that said, knowing the reputation of this forum and the people in it, I fully trust it as a reliable reference for a vendor/seller/sponsor.

I do agree with you (as should be reflected in my earlier post) that it's not appropriate to accuse anyone of wrongdoing without reason. The possibility of wrongdoing does not necessarily mean there is wrongdoing and it would be absurd to say it does. It also matters because many people trust in the credibility of this forum, the sponsors, and the users to make decisions that have very real impact in people's lives (their happiness and their wallets).

So to be clear... my statement was purely to emphasize that an intelligent buyer should ask questions and it's reasonable to have concerns but should investigate their options no matter what the reference. That's not the same as suggesting wrongdoing exists based on incomplete facts or lack of situational awareness.

Eric, I understand....but I felt the need to address this thread again, and your post just fit with what I had wanted to say...No Problem there at all.

-al

[LizStreithorst]

Well said,Brew. You are the boss here and you run the forum very well. Just look at it!!!! You have made good choices in both your sopnsors and mods. If the sponsors show themselves to be unworthy, they are out of here. I've never seen a sponsor/mod abuse his or her power. If it happened, I'm sure that he would be outta here, too.

[Skip]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/njneere/Funny/eating-popcorn.gif

[Scott293]

Hey folks it's all good!! I enjoy this forum and have no interest in looking for another if there is one. Certainly seems to be a good bunch here. Keep on keepin on

[mmorris]

I've never had a problem with sponsors moderating. I would like to see a couple more of the sponsors/moderators helping out with questions though. If they are on the forum moderating, surely they can answer a few questions.

[William Palumbo]

I've never had a problem with sponsors moderating. I would like to see a couple more of the sponsors/moderators helping out with questions though. If they are on the forum moderating, surely they can answer a few questions.

+1...Seems some only post when they have something to sell...Bill

[brewmaster15]

Bill and Martha,
Agree, It would be great if sponsors did post more....but Its not a requirement to be one....and I'd have a hard time enforcing it if it was. I've talked with many of them regarding it and for many are just too busy...Many work and sell here so its like having 2 jobs, and they have family.Which I can understand now more than ever since I started selling Freeze Dried Blackworms. I find I have less time for posting than I had before...though I still try to interact daily... It just takes alot of time to do a thing right.

WE have many people here that are not sellers and are very good about posting and helping...others..its what makes this a great community.I am happy that are sponsors are able to provide quality product, good prices and are ethical in their dealings.... From the Forum's point of view...thats their main role in all of this....anything further is great...anything less, not good.

hth,
al

[mmorris]

Bill and Martha,
Agree, It would be great if sponsors did post more.... for many are just too busy...l
You know, of course, I was referring to sponsors who are moderators.

[Melissa]

lol multi tasking! Duh! winning!
Oh yuck you totally just said winning...

So you're one of those peps out on the road endangering my babies lives every time we go out on the road eh? Txting and driving is not cool dude. Certainly not something to joke about either. About a year ago we got T-boned by some chick texting, she ran a red light and it totaled our car. I like you warlock, but just not as much anymore LOL!

[brewmaster15]

You know, of course, I was referring to sponsors who are moderators.

Martha, why should it be any different for these than non-moderator sponsors?... Moderator;/sponsors are not only selling, and have jobs, but they are moderating for the forum and helping me run this site..... I'm good with that.

-al

[mmorris]

I assume a moderator is expected to spend time on the forum, and if a moderator/sponsor is too busy to post, then do they have the time to moderate? I think someone's interest in being and willingness to become a moderator implies a vested interest in the forum over and above advertising. Of course, you couldn't, and wouldn't, want to force a moderator/sponsor to post advice. A moderator/sponsor would have to personally feel the responsibility. The larger the ratio of expert to novice the better.

[Skip]

Dis mama... Well I am a guy... So right off the bat we drive better.. U Member it was a lady walking and texting that fell into the fountain at that mall... Not a guy. Esp on a long str8 road to dallas it gets boring quick.. But my smart phone has voice text input... Works wonders!.. I talk..it types!.. But in city of austin it is illegal to text on phone.. Not interstate ;)

[brewmaster15]

I assume a moderator is expected to spend time on the forum, and if a moderator/sponsor is too busy to post, then do they have the time to moderate? I think someone's interest in being and willingness to become a moderator implies a vested interest in the forum over and above advertising. Of course, you couldn't, and wouldn't, want to force a moderator/sponsor to post advice. A moderator/sponsor would have to personally feel the responsibility. The larger the ratio of expert to novice the better.

Martha,

Being a Good Moderator and being an experienced discus keeper don't have much in common. A moderator is here to enforce the forums rules, and help me with decisions and ideas. You may not see them doing this....but they do...as I said we have an area of the forum where we do much that you don't see.

I pick Moderators that I believe are level headed, ethical and can work within the guidelines I set....and I am comfortable with this...its been close to 10 years now....what we have here works and works well.


if a moderator/sponsor is too busy to post, then do they have the time to moderate? Reading and monitoring things doesn't mean posting.. but when the need arises Moderators deal with the issue or bring to our attention in our moderator forum....or they call me...

The system we have works... Its why we have such a great forum. Period.

Time to move on...

Thread closed.