My "Beginner's Guide..." sticky

[discuspaul]

Since posting my 'Beginner's Guide' in this section approx. 2 months ago, there have been a large number of viewer/readers, and that's good - I certainly hope it has helped to get some newbies started off on the right track, or at least thinking about giving it a go.
Since it was a closed thread though, readers didn't have the facility of commenting, or asking questions, on any points that were perhaps not as clear as they might have been.
My purpose here is to invite any newbies who have questions as they go through the paces of moving into discus-keeping, to please not hesitate to contact me, either within this thread, or by PM.
I'd be glad to help out in any way I can.
Similarly, if any of you gurus out there have any comments to make, or to take issue with any of my remarks, I'd be happy to hear about that as well.
I did my best with this guide, but of course I recognize and appreciate that the world is full of differing opinions, views, and experiences.
Sincerely,
Paul

[oscarzx]

How does one go about dosing fertilizers & doing their WC for discus?

I have a 90 gallon heavy planted tank, I dose everyday with different fertilizers. I do 1 50% WC every Sunday and repeat the cycle. Will this be a problem for discus? I plan on keeping 6 discus in my 90.

[discuspaul]

I don't see that as a problem. You're doing WCs once weekly, so that shouldn't have much effect on negating your fertilizing efforts. And I believe I can safely say that it won't be a bit disturbing to your discus, who really appreciate the frequent addition of fresh, clean water.
Hope this answers your question.

[oscarzx]

Thanks Paul, If i come up with more question I will post them here... awesome thread!

[hillmar78]

Hey Paul....
I need some advice, and its good that you live in the same area as myself ( I'm in vancouver).
I just started getting serious into Discus for about 6 months now, and fishkeeping in general for about 10 months, so I'm pretty new to the whole thing.
The issue I have atm is with the RO water that is coming out of my sink ( that everybody here in Vancouver faces). I'm doing 3 water (50 percent water) changes a week. I'm going through 6 tbs of Equilibrium and 3 tbs of Alkaline buffer, and it is costing alot of money since equilibrium and alkaline buffer is expensive. On top of that the water conditioner, and stability is added. I'm going through these buffers faster then I can stock them ( it is a planted tank so salt cannot be used) So the question I have is can I get away with 2 50 percent water changes ???!!!
Thanks alot Paul,
Tank stats.....
Currently 7 Discus, 12 cardinal tetra, 1 bn pleco, 8 cory aggazi
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
5 nitrate
ph 5.5(from the tap) 6.5 ( in tank with buffers)
GH 5 degrees
KH 4 degrees
Tank specs
90 gallon planted tank
filtration- rena filstar xp3
- eheim pro 2028
- 1 large hydro sponge
- 2 mini bio sponge
substrate- white silica sand
heating - 2 fluval E300 heaters, 1 300W titanium heater
special note: running 500ml of Purigen

[discuspaul]

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, Hillmar. Do you have an RO processor system on your sink ?
I haven't come across pH of 5.5 coming out of tap water in the Greater Vancouver Area - soft water yes, in & around the 6.5 to 7.0 pH range, but not that low. And are you ageing your water, and is it moving up to 6.5 with gassing off ?
In our area, there should be no need to be using Equilibrium and buffers - why are you doing that ?
And there should also be no need to use Stability as well. Where did you get the advice to do that ?
It seems like you're unecessarily complicating things for yourself by trying to alter the pH, which in itself is rather a no-no for discus.
Try testing pH of the water, unaffected by any filtration system, straight out of the tap, let it sit overnite & test it again. Let me know what the results are and we'll go from there, ok ?
In the final analysis re: your water changes, it's not going to matter a great deal whether you do 2 or 3 - 50% wcs a week, although 3 would likely be better than 2. The important thing, I believe, is to get you weaned off the use of those chemicals/water altering agents. My apologies if this sounds somewhat harsh as a response.

[Latro]

Products like Seachem's Flourish (mostly consisting of metal ions like iron and so on) give a recommended dosage in terms of volume per gallon per week. How is this affected by water changes? Should you add more of them at each water change in addition to the main weekly dose?

[discuspaul]

Latro, that's a very good question, which I'm not sure I can answer with any degree of accuracy. Don't know which Seachem Flourish product you're referring to, but I assume it may be Comprehensive Supplement - (perhaps not) - in any event, the liquid ferts (I use them as well) don't provide a great deal of plant nutrients at their recommended dosage at the best of times imo, and yes, you will get some dilution or removel of those elements with water changes, particularly if they are frequent ( e.g. daily, or every 2nd day). Nonetheless, we discus keepers have to carry on, don't we, if we're to keep a planted tank.
If you do only 2, maybe 3, wcs a week, your fertilizing should still be doing some good, and if you're like me, you'll just need to experiment a little with the amount of dosages (increase them by say -50%) to see what works best for you in the long run.
Hope this helps.

[hillmar78]

Hey Paul,
No I completely agree with what you are saying but the problem is I used my API test Kit on 2 day old tank water with a PH reading of barely a 6 ... I mean my test kit couldn't read any lower. GH at 0 , KH at 0 . And what I've heard is that GH of 0 and KH of 0 is VERY dangerous to any fish for osmoregulation and with 0 KH the water had absolutely no buffering capability and could cause a PH crash. ( I got this from researching the internet) I was skeptical of my reading so I brought my tank water that was 2 days old to Islandpets to confirm my readings and they told me I'm at double 0 for KH and GH with a PH of 6. Still not believing their results I took the same water to Petsmart for a reading and again double 0 for KH and GH with a PH of 6. So I'm a little confused at what to do, but all I know is that it takes ALOT of equilibrium and Alkaline buffer to get to a few degree's in a 90 gallon tank with double 0 readings......


edit:
I just tested my 4 day old aged tap water in my tub and got a PH reading of 6.5 ! So now I've come to a conclusion that my 2 small pieces of driftwood in my tank has caused this low PH, I'm guessing with my 0 KH value and no buffering capability in the water, the PH just went skyrocketing down.

[discuspaul]

I'm still waiting to hear whether or not you have any type of water treatment system in place for dealing with city water coming out of your tap ?
In your post above you mentioned your test(s) on pH readings - when did you do that ? How long ago did you get the readings of Gh and Kh of "0" which were apparently confirmed by IPU and Petsmart ? Was it on one occasion only?
I have difficulty envisioning readings over an extended period of time of "0" for both Gh and Kh of water coming out of your tap here in Vancouver, creating the potential for a pH crash. I'm far from an expert on water chemistry, but it seems that all your comments as to pH of 6.0 at origin, moving to 6.5 after ageing and in your tank, point to a normal situation insofar as the stability of your pH is concerned. I haven't noted anything you have said to indicate a "skyrocketing down" of your pH due to lack of buffering capability of your water.
Your overall comments have me confused over your situation.
I still feel you should refrain from using all of the products you have mentioned above, except for the conditioner for wcs, and any fertlizer products you are using.
Please give me more info re: my questions above, and I'll try to help with this concern you have.

[2wheelsx2]

I believe he's talking about our low TDS water Paul. There are a couple of solutions to hillmar's problem (sorry don't know your first name). You can buy Equilibrium in bulk (I got mine through a group buy on BCA), or you can reduce your Eq use or eliminate it all together. Eq can be replaced by using Epsom salts for Mg, Plaster of Paris or calcium carbonate for Ca, and K2SO4 for K and CSM+B for the trace. You can buy GH booster from Aquaflora through Canadian Aquatics which will have Mg, Ca, some K and CSM+B. and then add some extra K. I use a combination of all of the above. Hopefully, that's not overly confusing.

[discuspaul]

Thanks for the post Gary - That's more than once you've come to my rescue and I appreciate it. I was hoping someone with more knowledge than I in this area (which is certainly not my forte), would chime in to help out.

Having said that, I think we still don't know all the facts in Hillmar's case, and ime the low TDS in our soft water doesn't greatly affect our success, one way or another, in raising and keeping healthy discus here in Vancouver, without the use of additives, buffers, or whatever. As you know, these fish in the wild inhabit generally very soft/ acidic water with low TDS and thrive. As a matter of a belief I have as to good, safe management methodology in this hobby, I have always felt there was a benefit to avoiding 'unnatural' or unusual means of altering the water chemistry we have to work with. But perhaps that's being too altruistic and unrealistic.

[2wheelsx2]

You're probably right there. I don't add as many additives in my discus tank as I do with my other tank for the plecos. I just change more water in my discus tank. I do add about 1/2 of the recommended amount of Equilibrium in the tank along with some Epsom salts though. My concern with our soft water is the plants' uptake may cause a even more reduced TDS situation that may be untenable. In an unplanted tank, the only exchange would be fresh water in/waste out, but in a planted tank, there are ion exchange processes which are not accounted for by just having fish and water and it makes me more comfortable to have the added insurance of some buffers in the water.

As for the wild comparison, in an open system, no matter how low the tds is, there is constant influx of new water with more mineralis entering to the system, so the effect of low tds with continuing reduction in tds may be negligible compared to a closed system. For a discus aficionado who changes water every day, this situation is emulated. Unfortunately, due to work and family circumstances, I'm not in a position to do daily water changes at this time in my life. This would seem to match with the conventional wisdom of a larger volume of water maintaining better stability. And of course, an open system would be the largest body of water available.

Having said all that, I do agree we need more facts in hillmar's case, such as plant uptake (resulting from CO2 injection/Excel, lighting intensity and period, ferts dosed and frequency, plant density and diversity, etc.).

[discuspaul]

Thanks for the insight and I agree with your comments.
With the large and frequent WCS we do for our discus though, even if that's only 2 or 3 times weekly, I personally feel we are not truly dealing with a closed system, and that we are somewhat emulating the wild with the relatively constant influx of new water, with at least some new minerals entering the system to replace those being taken up by the plantings (albeit in a much smaller body of water).
But our thoughts in this regard aren't doing much to help hillmar's situation, are they ? LOL
Hopefully he can get something out of your suggestions above which will provide a remedy to his problem and alleviate his concerns.

[oscarzx]

Paul one question, doing a ONE 50% WC every sunday is good as we stated earlier.. Now my question, does the water have to be warm or can I just dump cold water *treated of course* into the tank.. any insight on this? I hear a lot of myths of different things that can happen.

Can you clarify this for me please, thanks a lot.

[Melissa]

I know your question is addressed to Paul but i figured I would share what I was told once and the rule of thumb I live by is- you don't want the new water you're dumping in the tank to be more than 3 degrees off in either direction, warmer or colder... Now there are some exceptions like with breeding to stimulate spawning... Or maybe it would depend on the size of the water change you are performing. With something like a 50% water change for example, I would try to match the temperature of the tank as closely as possible as to not shock the fish. HTH

[discuspaul]

Thanks for responding to that question, DiscusMama (is it Melissa?). Appreciated - I do agree with your comments.
When doing WCs, I can approximate the temp in my tank by less than 2 degrees F, usually just one degree, simply by the feel of the temp on my fingers.
I've heard many aquarists claim the temp difference can be quite large, by as much as 10 degrees F or more, and even if doing a 50% WC, you won't alter the tank water temp (when refilled) by more than roughly half that much, with no ill effects on the fish. But with discus of course, I for one don't like to take unnecessary risks, so I prefer to keep it as close as I can - for the fish's comfort if nothing else.

[oscarzx]

Alright, just wanted to make that clear.. I'll definitely have to keep tabs on that. Thanks guys!

[discuspaul]

BTW all you good folks out there - please don't hesitate to chime in anytime with your thoughts, views, or experiences, even when the question is directed at me, as DiscusMama just did - I don't mind at all, in fact I rather like it.
I certainly won't be offended - we all know that several heads are better than one anyway - don't we? LOL
Besides that, there are a number of areas in this hobby where I could learn a lot as well, and I dearly wish to do just that. Keep 'em comin' !!!

[oscarzx]

BTW all you good folks out there - please don't hesitate to chime in anytime with your thoughts, views, or experiences, even when the question is directed at me, as DiscusMama just did - I don't mind at all, in fact I rather like it.
I certainly won't be offended - we all know that several heads are better than one anyway - don't we? LOL
Besides that, there are a number of areas in this hobby where I could learn a lot as well, and I dearly wish to do just that. Keep 'em comin' !!!

I don't know man.. I think discusmama should be banned for interrupting.... LOL

[discuspaul]

One more thing as an example - & in the same vein as my comment above, Gary (2wheelsX2) commented earlier on a tough question for me, and I learned something new as well, just as I have learned something new almost every week for the past year when he has posted his comments. When Gary speaks, you should listen - I have learned he knows quite a bit about every facet of this hobby ! (And that's from listening to what he says, on at least 3 different forums that we are both members of). Forgive me if this embarasses you, Gary.

[hillmar78]

Sorry it took me awhile to get back to you all...
Currently I'm running a low tech system with 110W CF. Plants are 3 pots of java fern, 5 pots of assorted anubias, and driftwood with anubias attached. I usually only put a little liquid fert once a week.
As for GH and KH readings..... I've always had readings of double 0, but when I first started the hobby I thought it was a good thing. Then after a few months I went aragonite substrate after finding out that double 0 is not a good thing but the aragonite shot the ph pretty high. So I went siilca sand with equilibrium. 2 weeks ago I had 2 unexplained deaths, a L240 just died, and 1 out of 24 of my cardinal tetra died a few days later. So I tested my water and had a very low PH reading 5.5-6.0 ( it was just barely coloring up in the lowest range).... took the tank water to petsmart and islandpets where they said I had a hint of GH (from my equilibrium dosing) but 0 KH and a ph of 6. Petsmart tried to sell me a PH up tablet and islandpets tried to sell me the alkaline buffer. I went with the alkaline buffer, and ever since I've been dosing both alkaline buffer and equilibrium I have had a pretty steady PH of about 6.5~7.0 . I actually dropped by April's aquarium today, and when I arrived I saw a huge bucket of equilibrium on the ground ( kinda put me at ease that I'm not alone) , she said it was normal to use buffers for our water and actually a few of the discus are showing spawning characteristics after dosing equilibrium.

[2wheelsx2]

There are pluses and minuses with Java Fern. Plus is that it grows in all kinds of conditions other plants can't grow in. Minus is that its uptake and growth rate may be more than you like.

At 110W CF, you're definitely in the low light category.

Using aragonite sand is an easy solution, but with pure aragonite, there is just too much surface area and the dissolution rate may be too high. If you got any of the aragonite sand left, throw a couple of handfuls in the tank to mix with the silica sand. That's essentially what April does, but she does it with bare bottom. Another passive way to buffer the pH/KH is to use whole pieces of tufa rock, which is aragonite/calcite based and will slowly dissolve over time, allowing you not to have to keep adding stuff. The beauty of the passive method is that it's hands off, and with the tufa rock, you can actually monitor the dissolution rate by looking at the size of the rock.

Those test kits are pretty crude in the measurements. I plan to get a Hanna TDS meter soon to really monitor my hunches and track what's working and what's not in terms of water buffering.

And @Paul....aw shucks. I try to listen to what people teach, and if it has a solid argument, I try it and monitor the effects. Sometimes things work and sometimes don't and over time I accumulated a bunch of things which work for me and I try to pass that on.

[hillmar78]

I'll definitely try to mix a little aragonite in my silica sand.... and see how that holds up!! Probly save me from dosing alkaline buffer.
Thanks.