Disease Brain Storm

[Hsunami]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started


so. . . about 2 days ago i found one of my discus swimming side wise on the bottom of the tank unable to regulate his air bladder. I took him out immediately and put him in a qT tank with 1 Teaspoon of Meth Blue and 2 Teaspoon of Salt. Went put in he immediately went drop to the bottom of the tank like a food pellet. After writing to jpdevol about it i medicated him with Kanamycin. 1 teaspoon and left it as that and went to sleep.

Next morning (Morning) i checked on the fish he was still breathing but was still on his side and i was advise by jpdevol to dose 4000mg of Kanamycin. Which was 4 Teaspoons (So i added 3 more teaspoons since i had 1 in there already) in my 10 gallon tank. The full dosage was only in there for 12 hours so after i did my 50% water change i added in another 2 teaspoons.

Next morning again. . . (Today) he was dead. . . .

Anyone know of something that can cause this? This Fast

He was swimming and eating perfectly the previous day and that morning, no hiding, no visible injuries, no dart, no nothing.

The fish had zero external injures and i could not see any kind of brusing in the fish.

While in the QT tank he kept lieing underneath the tip of the heater (not sure if this means anything).




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)


Laying on bottom of the tank



3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

1 Teaspoon of Meth Blue
2 Teaspoon of Salt
1 Teaspoon of Kanamycin

Then was told to add 4000mg of Kanamycin the next day

Then added 3 more teaspoons. . .

After 12 hours did a 50% water change and added in another 2 teaspoons.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55 gallon

7 Discus, 2 inch to 2.5 inch


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Water change 95% every night (Once a day) Fed (5x a day)
Tanks been up for 4 months now
Barebottom Tank
Age Water: 60% is aged 40% is tap


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __86-87___

- ph __7.6___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading _0___

- nitrate reading _5 (after big water change) then 10 (Before water change). Theres always 5 nitrate in my tap water

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

Nope, Only 2 heaters and 2 sponge filters inside.

[Skip]

Salt is measured by tablespoons per 10gallon.... Not teaspoon...
Why did u throw all that meds at .fish in such a short time

[Hsunami]

o salt is tablespoon? LOL opps. . . .

What part of the meds are you refering to?

[Skip]

All meds.. What was root of problem u were medicating

[Hsunami]

so it wasn't the part where the fish dropped like a stone to the bottom of the tank? and when i went to get the fish with the net he didn't even bother to move or couldn't. Then when i put him in the qT tank he dropped right to the bottom again? Even before medication?

[kaceyo]

4000mg of Kanamycin is around 2 level tsp. which is the max dose of kanamycin (per 8gals water) you should use. So he was already hit pretty hard by whatever the problem was, then got hit with mass meds (8000mg kanamycin in 10gal tank) finished him off.
It's always a good idea to use a scale and double check the math and dosage when using meds.

[YSS]

May be he was on his way to his demise with or without what you did, but all the meds, so much so quickly certianly doesn't help. Be aware where and from whom you get your info and advise. As one of the respected member of the forum once said, just because someone sounds knowledgeable, doesn't mean the the knowledge is with merit.

[Hsunami]

he wasn't hit with that much at once.

It was meth blue with salt and 1 teaspoon of Kanamycin. for 12 hours.

then i was told 24 hours later to put a strong dose of kanamycin which was the 4 teaspoon so i added in another 3 for 12 hours and did a 50% water change (Cause my 24 hours of water change time was up so had to change). Then keep doing 50% water changes every 24 hours after that.

[jpdevol]

Very sorry for the loss Kevin.

It was indeed a critical situation. This is the second juvenile that Kevin has gone down like this. The first one, I assumed may be from a trauma because of injury as some darting was noted. That one was treated with Methelyne Blue and did show some recovery before passing.

Upon this second occurrence, the first round of treatment was intended to stabilize the fish with the MB and salts per standard practice for distressed fish. I thought a bacterial infection of the air bladder must now be considered a possibility. The Kanamycin dose was 400mg/gal in a 10gal tank or 4000mg.

In my experience, swimming difficulties are associated often with the air bladder and can have three general causes;
Trauma causing the nervous system to improperly regulate the air bladder; bacterial infection causing the air bladder incapable of proper reaction to the environment; and physiological deformity rendering the air bladder impaired of function.

[Hsunami]

thanks jpdevol for clarifying for everyone.

I finally made my own turkey/seafood mix with vitamins! so i am hopping this will help with my future fish for immune system stability.

Guess feeding only frozen black worm and beefheart wasn't enough.

Hoping this mix will help.

[jpdevol]

4000mg of Kanamycin is around 2 level tsp. which is the max dose of kanamycin (per 8gals water) you should use. So he was already hit pretty hard by whatever the problem was, then got hit with mass meds (8000mg kanamycin in 10gal tank) finished him off.
It's always a good idea to use a scale and double check the math and dosage when using meds.

Actually, 4000mg of Kanamycin is close to 4 teaspoons. There should have been only 4000mg of Kana in the 10gal tank.

[jpdevol]

I just hope you do not have another occurence. I have no idea if it is genetic (deformity), nutrition (you are working on), or disease (it sure is fast and fatal).

Well... since we are brainstorming; IMO the treatment did not cause the fatality, it just failed to prevent it.

Any insight as to what would cause (could cause) such a rapid loss off buoyancy and locomotion in two fish is entirely welcome (by me and surely Kevin too).

[kaceyo]

Actually, 4000mg of Kanamycin is close to 4 teaspoons. There should have been only 4000mg of Kana in the 10gal tank.
The kanamycin I use from Jehmco weighs 2.2grams per teaspoon. That's 2200mg per tsp. 4tsp would equal 8,800mg.

[Skip]

hmmmm... looks like the math could have been off

[Hsunami]

ew. . . . LOL i hope not its not 2.2 grams (2200mg). Guess this can be the experiement where we confirm that a teaspoon is "X" amount of mg in this thread. LOL oh man i really hope i didn't dose 8800mg on my little guy. . . poor thing. I "O.D." a fish. . . :(

[kaceyo]

ew. . . . LOL i hope not its not 2.2 grams (2200mg). Guess this can be the experiement where we confirm that a teaspoon is "X" amount of mg in this thread. LOL oh man i really hope i didn't dose 8800mg on my little guy. . . poor thing. I "O.D." a fish. . . :(

On my jar of kanamycin it states the maximum dose, for systemic infections, is 1/4tsp per gal. A ten gallon tank usually holds around 8gals, which would be two tsp max, which would equal 4,400mg. So the 4,000mg was within recommendations, but not the # of tsp it takes to get 4,000mg.
That's why I always advise using a scale and double checking your math.
Don't feel too bad, I've screwed up even with a scale more than once.

[Hsunami]

I do not have access to a scale

not sure if this means anything but on the back it says " An approximation of the recommended dosage can be achieved by adding 1 level teaspoon per 8 to 20 gallons of aquarium water. For systematic infections the concentrations should be 133.3 mg/L (= 100mg/L kanamycin) or 1/4 tsp/gal.

And. . . i have no idea what that means. LOL

[Skip]

looks like you doubled what the directions called for.. :(

[Hsunami]

so that sentence does mean something? Blah ok. So to clarify 1 teaspoon is 2200 mg/L Correct?

[kaceyo]

so that sentence does mean something? Blah ok. So to clarify 1 teaspoon is 2200 mg/L Correct?
Yes, that's correct. You have the same brand that I have, with the same info.

[jpdevol]

I must apologize to Kevin for supplying wrong info and to Kacey for questioning his correct info.

Haste makes mistakes; this time the mistake was all mine. This morning I finally got a chance to check my Kanamycin on my scale and indeed 1 Teaspoon (measuring spoon not kitchen spoon) of that powder weighed 2250mg. In my earlier haste to advise Kevin on dose; I remembered a statement on my Praziquatnel jar that stated 1Tsp = 969mg. What I foolishly did not consider is that the two powders (Kana & Prazi) are very different in weight. From now on, I will weigh the dose of the actual substance before offering a conversion to volume.

[kaceyo]

Apology accepted, but not nescessary. We're all here to help and learn.

[Hsunami]

Apology accepted, but not nescessary. We're all here to help and learn.

+1 No worries jpdevol. For me wise its a learning experience. better learned that the dosage is "X" amount now rather than later when i want to get adults.