No good deed goes unpunished....an interesting delemma

[nc0gnet0]

As many of you know, a while back I had a rather large spawn between an albino red melon x mercury cross. The 120+ babies quickly overcrowded the 30 gallon breeder and where placed into a 55 gallon, in which they once again quickly outgrew and where divided up with ahlf remaining in the 55 gallon, and the other half in yet another 55 gallon tank.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?85898-Fry-pictures-(20-days)

All of the fish remained healthy with only one runt and no deformities, other than varying degrees of pepper on some of them ( I am keeping 10-12 exceptionally clean ones for future breeding perhaps, and to grow out). At any rate, these fish once again grow to the point where overcrowding was once again an issue. I decided to post a craigslist add, offering them for sale for $5.00 a piece for the ones with some pepper. I placed a minimum purchase at 5 fish, figuring they would do much better in a group then by thier own.

It was my intent to possibly get some people interested in the hobby, and a chance to try their hand at it before spending 100 bucks or more a fish. I was literally swamped with emails looking to buy the fish, and I am still getting emails on the add. Most people came over and bought 5, some 10, a few others a couple more than that. One particular guy, had told me that he had a 125 gallon tank he had just set up, etc etc, and he purchased 20.

A few days later, I get an email from one of the buyers that he had just seem some of my fish at a local LFS. Curious, the next day I took a little trip, and yup, sure enough 14 of the litte guys were in the tank and being sold for $40.00 a pop (3" fish). I inquired about them and the clerk told me that a local breeder had brought them in. To this I chuckled and let him know the story, and that I was the indeed the breeder.

On the way home I stopped at the LFS I usually visit to purchase certain supplies, and low and behold, another 4 of them in one of their tanks at $45.00 a pop. Suddenly, I feel as I unknowingly gave the poor little guys a death sentence. I must admit, it kinda ticks me off that someone was representing themself as the breeder when it was infact I. What some people won't do to turn a quick buck these days.

Rick

[William Palumbo]

LOL...typical. Nothing surprises me at this stage. I see that on my end too. Usually the Discus gets a new strain name as well...Bill

[Darrell Ward]

...often with the word "rare" thrown in for good measure.

[Melissa]

Oh my god! That's horrible!! OHHH I'm so mad for you Rick :(

[vera]

Feel yr pain Rick , its kind of uncomfortable to c them sold at 8x the price ..and the breeder thing ..well , if u dont have space to keep them all then thats the only way to go
do u have any update pictures of them

[Jhhnn]

I'm pretty cynical about the pet industry in general, and our hobby in particular. The number of abandoned furry pets euthanized in this country every year is astounding. The difference with pet fish is that they're just abandoned in their glass cages, where they die of neglect or of ineptitude by their owners. The OP's allusion to young discus being as good as dead once they hit a petstore is true all too often, due to the ineptitude in that distribution venue. I'm of the jaundiced opinion that the vast majority of young domestic discus don't survive their first 6 months of life, let alone the first year. That's probably true of wild discus, as well, if for different reasons.

OTOH, it's something we need to accept when we breed our fish. Either we cull them down to the number we want for ourselves, or we send some out into the world. Inevitably, some will survive to adulthood and beyond despite the odds, and that's about the best we can hope for. If they're going to end up in a petstore anyway, we might as well cut the schemers and scammers out of the picture, sell into that channel ourselves. That doesn't preclude selling to other hobbyists, obviously.

Just the way it is, and part of the reason I've been reticent to advance to breeding.

[ericatdallas]

I think the lesson may be to never sell your fish for less than what the pet store is willing to buy/credit you for.

[DiscusKev]

Ouch that's annoying.

[Keith Perkins]

Okay, I'm back to this thread for the second time now. I was the first to read it and passed on posting then because I was exhausted from planting our gardens all day yesterday and I didn't think Rick would appreciate what my response would have been last night. I was just laughing last night, and was too tired to put into words why. It wasn't because the situation is funny, but because I was in disbelief. I have to admit hearing this one was a first for me, but I can totally see where it would happen though.

Rick - maybe you'll be lucky enough that the guy likes your fish SO much that he decides to set up another new 125 and comes back for another couple dozen fish. I'd like to be a fly on the wall if that happens.

I'll make sure I wave later today on my way through Grand Rapids on my way to Midland.

Keith

[ericatdallas]

I don't really think 20 is that unusual of an amount. I wouldn't look suspiciously at every person that buys that many. I bought 6 from a local breeder then went back and bought another 16 within a month (at buy one get another one (a strain he had too many of)). At $5/fish, I probably would have done the same with yours and pick out my favorites when they were grown.

I can honestly say, if someone was offering Discus in my local area for $5 each and it was something I didn't already have, I would jump at it and buy at lest 15 if not 20.

With that said, the only thing this guy did wrong was misrepresent himself to the pet store. He found a demand for them and he found a supply. He brought supply to the demand. That's capitalism at work. It's no different than Hans and Stendker, Mike and Jeff, Kenny and Forest, John and whoever, etc etc.

I don't think there's anything to get mad about except I would be upset at myself for not trying the LFS first myself. Selling them at $5 a piece, you have to assume you're going to get a lot of people who aren't going to take care of the fish very well to begin with. Also, with the response you got, you obviously could have sold them for a little more.

Once you sell the fish it's out of your hands. If you want to limit it to peope as a learning experience, short of a legal contract you're out of luck. You could probably lower the chance of it happening by setting a limit to how many peopel can buy though.

[Skip]

buy low, sell high.. it is the American way

[nc0gnet0]

With that said, the only thing this guy did wrong was misrepresent himself to the pet store. He found a demand for them and he found a supply. He brought supply to the demand. That's capitalism at work. It's no different than Hans and Stendker, Mike and Jeff, Kenny and Forest, John and whoever, etc etc.

Thats not quite the whole story however. I already knew what I could get for them at the Pet store, and opted not to go that route. I had also asked the buyers what thier plans were, tank size etc. This particular guy went through great lengths to describe his tank, his plans etc. Was what he did wrong, not if blatant lieing and misreprentation is acceptable when capitalism is at work. I am not mad because I found out later I could have gotten more at the LFS, I already knew before hand what they would pay for them. My intent was to give people a chance to get started in the hobby at a reasonable price (btw i did have a five fish minimum).

This particular buyer even went as far as to give me "updates" on his fish, and mentioned that he "lost" two the first night......lol.

[Wes]

I don't think asking peolple to take a polygragh test, before you will sell, is asking to much.:shocked::whip::whip::whip::whip::whip:

[Darrell Ward]

The last couple of batches of fry I had, I sold through our regional fish club. At least I knew they went to good homes with experienced fish keepers.

[Sean Buehrle]

Wow I think you have every right in the world to be ticked off about it. The fact that you are opening your door to people and trusting them to not be devious in any way speaks volumes. Whats next with people like this ? Maybe steal something from you while your back is turned ?. I would be praying for another spawn so i could offer more and hope he came back so i could give him what for. I dont blame you a bit for feeling used. Freeking people suck.

[Sean Buehrle]

Heres one for you.
I joined a local fish club website a couple months back.

I offered 2 mated pairs of angels for free and took the first persons offer to take them off my hands.
Other people wanted them but it was a first come type thing.
Well the guy who got them couldnt get them for a couple weeks and i needed to get rid of them fast or buy a tank for them. So he called around to people here in my area people who have multiple tanks, like 20/30 tanks.
Both guys said no they didnt have room, but at the same time were pming me saying they could get right over and take them.
The one guy i found out had already made a deal with a person in an upcoming fish swap to sell them.
Im amazed at the lengths people will go to to make a buck.
When i run into people like this i make it clear that i want nothing to do with them and rat them out to everyone who will listen.
Even the slightest bit of deception gets my goat and i dont tolerate it at my house.

[ericatdallas]

This particular buyer even went as far as to give me "updates" on his fish, and mentioned that he "lost" two the first night......lol.

How do you know it's this guy? This very well could have been me. I bought a ton of fish as a first time discus buyer (expecting to lose a LOT because of how 'delicate' people told me they were). Although, losing 2 on first night is suspcious but why would he have to give you updates? It's not like you knew the guy or would ever see him again. The worst that could happen is that next time he says they all died and he needs more or he has a frend he's picking up for.

[ericatdallas]

btw, do you ship? :)

[zimmjeff]

lying is lying

[Keith Perkins]

How do you know it's this guy?

Unless I read the original post wrong, he only sold 14+ fish to one individual.

[nc0gnet0]

How do you know it's this guy?

Only one guy bought the number of fish required to have that many in the fish store, plus he later admitted it. This was email response to the add I posted:


I am very interested in the discus fish. I have discus of my own and I recently accquired a 120 gal. tank that I have cycling with live plants and drift wood. I am wanting to do discus in this as well.

another


I get home from work around 6 tonight if you would be interested in me coming over and taking a look at them. I have a royal blue, yellow stone, pearl, pigeon, and a red dragon. I have had them for over a year now. I am very excited. Let me know

And then after the purchase I sent a follow up email to check on how they were doing to which his response was:


Rick, The babies are doing fine. I lost two of them the first night but the rest are doing great. I am hoping to get some more from you in the next few weeks. cause I put the babies in my 80 gallon tank and I still have a 170 that will soon be ready for fish. I am letting the live plants get rooted first. Plus my brother in law is a salt water lover but after he seen my little discus he is setting up a large tank for some as well. So as soon as your ready to sell some more let me know.

At any rate, it is not like I am losing any sleep over this, was a bit ticked off, but it is amazing what some people will do.

[William Palumbo]

Rick...does not sound like you deal with the public or sell too many fish!...You'll get used to it, and if doing it long term, as they say, "brother, you ain't seen nothin' yet!"...Bill

[kaceyo]

Rick...does not sound like you deal with the public or sell too many fish!...You'll get used to it, and if doing it long term, as they say, "brother, you ain't seen nothin' yet!"...Bill

Agreed! When you deal with the public you'll hear a million tall tales and a million true tales. Trying to differentiate between what's true, who's being honest and who's not, will drive you crazy. And lead you to make some wrong guesses. You sold them with the best of intentions, that's enough.

[nc0gnet0]

Rick...does not sound like you deal with the public or sell too many fish!...You'll get used to it, and if doing it long term, as they say, "brother, you ain't seen nothin' yet!"...Bill

Yeah I know Bill, but it just kinda makes you shake your head.

[nc0gnet0]

Vera

Here is a quick picture taken with a cheap coolpix camera. These are some of the 20+ I have saved to grow out a bit further and decide want I want to keep for possible future breeding. The yellows/orange are from the albino red melon x mercury cross, and the turqs are from a cross between a red turq and an Alenquer cross.


http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/juve1.jpg?t=1306702341

[wendy9722]

Its a shame what people do to others after you had put your heart into taking care of them then taking to a LFS. I would be furious!!!! More people need to reach to God and realize what they are doing is the works of the devil. Sometime I wonder if they dont know the difference. If I tell you that I'm keeping them that is what I am gonna do. Not turn around and try to make a profit and claim that I did it knowingly I didnt. Shame on them!!!

BTW, they are some nice babies. I wouldnt mind having a couple now but in a few days I'll be getting some others that will finish filling all my tanks. Best of luck with them.

[discolicious]

Oh man, that sucks! But hey, you probably did still achieve your goal of getting others involved in the hobby. I got my first one 25 years ago from a LFS, and when I paid a whopping 15 bucks for it, I knew I had to find out as much as I could to keep him alive. I did eventually lose him to sickness, but I learned a lot and am still keeping discus. Plus, anyone who will pay 45 dollars for a fish is likely to already have experience with fish, and that's a plus.

Tom

[ericatdallas]

I don't think anyone that experienced in fish buys quality fish at LFS (there are exceptions). When I think LFS though, I think Petsmart, Petco, Petland, etc.

$15 even 15 years ago is a decent price. According to inflation calculators, it's like around $20-25 in today's dollars (NOT $45).

[mmorris]

A I decided to post a craigslist add, offering them for sale for $5.00 a piece for the ones with some pepper.

A good rule to remember is that the butt-ugliest fish you ever sell will one day be plastered all over the forum, with your name attached. Keep the ones you like the best, and sell the ones you are proud of. Sell them for a reasonable price that reflects the market. Cull the rest. The hobby doesn't need more heavily peppered discus. If you want to sell them anyway, fine, but it isn't reasonable to have expectations of the buyers' motivations. You got what you wanted for them; I'm not surprised they were resold. Nice looking juvies, by the way.

[Jhhnn]

A good rule to remember is that the butt-ugliest fish you ever sell will one day be plastered all over the forum, with your name attached. Keep the ones you like the best, and sell the ones you are proud of. Sell them for a reasonable price that reflects the market. Cull the rest. The hobby doesn't need more heavily peppered discus. If you want to sell them anyway, fine, but it isn't reasonable to have expectations of the buyers' motivations. You got what you wanted for them; I'm not surprised they were resold. Nice looking juvies, by the way.

Too true. Thanks for the laugh.

[William Palumbo]

VERY true...was how it was with me when I would give free(culls)to customers. Tho not true culls in a sense, but less than perfect to me. People were always happy to get them...but seemed like those were the ones that were always photographed!...Bill

[ericatdallas]

If I were to critique this forum, the only thing I would critique is that I learn too much to appreciate a bad Discus. Even the ugliest discus is beautiful to the uneducated aquarist. The more you hang out here, the more you recognize and there is NO TURNING BACK. I will never appreciate a skinny, football shaped fully mature 3" Discus ever again... (that's a good thing, but also a bad thing in a way).

I used to be in awe at peole who look at horses, dogs, sheep, whatver and be able to find flaws because they all look the same. I'm not at the point where I can tell everything, but certainly what was subtle is quite obvious to me now.

[William Palumbo]

I guess it just boils down to what you like. I have met several hobbyist who actually LIKE peppering. It's a personal thing, such as shape and finnage. There are some VERY expensive Discus on here for sale now, and I just can't get past the weak chin, and extended chest. Just not my thing...others apparently don't mind, or love it. Again...it's individual tastes...Bill

[nc0gnet0]

LOL.

FWIW. I went to great lengths to explain what peppering was, why it was typically undesireable, and to explain that these fish that I sold did in fact have some. The extent of which they would have when full grown I couldn't guess. Only to have a few individuals go right ahead and pick out the ones with the most peppering. Most of the buyers were people that wanted to try thier hand at discus, and wanted to learn before spending premium prices for each fish.

short gill plates, deformed fins, extreme peppering all get the clove oil. But where does one draw the line on the ones with slight peppering when dealing with 2 1/2-3" fish.

Also, to side track my own thread.....has anyone ever bred mercury's and know when thier pepper turns blue?

Rick

[discolicious]

I don't think anyone that experienced in fish buys quality fish at LFS (there are exceptions). When I think LFS though, I think Petsmart, Petco, Petland, etc.

$15 even 15 years ago is a decent price. According to inflation calculators, it's like around $20-25 in today's dollars (NOT $45).

It was 25 years ago, and in Spain. 15 dollars at that time and in Spain was a small fortune for a fish. It seems funny now.. I recently paid 150 for one.. so, boy do times change.

[vera]

Thank u for update pictures Rick good looking juvies
LMAO at guy updates on sold group :)

[Keith Perkins]

I guess it just boils down to what you like. I have met several hobbyist who actually LIKE peppering. It's a personal thing, such as shape and finnage. There are some VERY expensive Discus on here for sale now, and I just can't get past the weak chin, and extended chest. Just not my thing...others apparently don't mind, or love it. Again...it's individual tastes...Bill

I agree with you Bill, I like mine traditionally round and clean...but maybe that's just because I'm getting too old and set in my ways. :)

[DonMD]

Hey, Rick,

I sure have enjoyed reading this post. I've finally managed to breed my first batch - only ten - to the size of a quarter. I'm looking at tank space, and realizing that I'm going to have to get rid of the fry soon. I appreciate you posting your experience about that - and all the replies. Not sure what I'll do with the little guys, but I have definitely decided to set up 3 or 4 breeding tanks. Once you experience success, it's a blast! Anyway, from what you said, it seems that at least a few buyers were sincere in wanting to begin with discus, and not gaming the system. Thanks for the post! -Don