Killer CL deal... What to do?

[JustinKScott]

Ok I am relatively new to discus, I have one 3.5" turquoise now for 3mo. Also, I have a fully cycled 80g planted tank which i intend to dedicated for discus. My turq is lonely in that big tank, but is colorful, unafraid, and eating.

Here's the delema.. On CL, a guy is selling his whole flock of (I believe) 14 jack wattley adult discus. He has all different strains. (blue diamonds, reds, yellow, striped blue, red turquoise, cobalt, albino ,leopard)

He is trying to get out of the hobby. For the most part, no one else in this little town will buy discus. So when I contacted him, he offered $30/fish if I take them all.

Can my little 80g tank support 14 + 1 fish?

I eventually want to try my hand at breeding, and he said none are a proven pair... But he hasn't 'tried' to breed. Will I never be able to breed these fish?

Would I be nuts not to take the deal, and try to sell some off?

[Northwoods Discus]

Depends on the quality of the 14 fish. If you want to breed you should get quality to start with. No way to know if it is a good deal without pics of the fish.
Bill Oh your gonna need a bigger tank.

[DLock3d]

Your 80 gallon will have a hard time supporting that many discus. If the fish range in size and age I'd get another comparable tank and split them off that way. Assuming the fish are all healthy and look good, that's a killer deal. What's he doing with his tank(s)?

[Altum Nut]

Your delema can be narrowed down. Ask questions...where he got them, how long has he had them, and can you see them before you commit.
I would take caution for someone to offer Wattley Discus for $30ea.
Maybe a dumb question...but what does CL stand for?
Good Luck,

...Ralph

[JustinKScott]

My wife an I have been breeding Angels; so we have tons of tanks sitting about. All being cleaned though, none cycled.

IF I brought them home in phases of 3-4 every two weeks, would that give me enough time to sell off 7 of them on the forum? I'd only be able to keep 8 total right?

[JustinKScott]

Your delema can be narowed down. Ask questions...where he got them, how long has he had them, and can you see them before you commit.
I would take caution for someone to offer Wattley Discus for $30ea.
Maybe a dumb question...but what does CL stand for?
Good Luck,

...Ralph

CL is craigslist. Yes I can go see them before I commit, he's just a guy and he's local.



How old can unproven discus be and still breed? I thought they had to grow up together?

[Northwoods Discus]

JMO but it doesn't pay to buy a bunch of fish that you will later be unhappy with and have to find a way to get rid of them. See if you can get some pictures and post them. That will really let you know if it is a good deal or not. Best would be to go with sponsor fish and get quality and healthy fish.

[JustinKScott]

JMO but it doesn't pay to buy a bunch of fish that you will later be unhappy with and have to find a way to get rid of them.

Why would I be unhappy? Sheer quantity? Or are you making the assumption they are sickly?

[ericatdallas]

If it sounds too good to be true it probably is...

Although I've seen some great deals off craigslist from people who just want to get rid of stuff. Heck, I've given away barely used washer/dryer ($500 new) and a dining room table barely used ($900 new) for free before because I wanted it out.

But yeah, $30 discus doesn't mean anything. I wouldn't pay $5 for a stunted discus and many people here would pay hundreds for one good fish. Read some websites with how to grade discus and look at sponsor listings. -IF- they look like that, then you might have a good deal. However, it doesn't matter who he said he got it from for two reasons 1) He could be lying 2) He may not have taken good care of them.

Do a search for 'Dexter' on this forum (sorry Judy) and you'll see that not all discus are worth $30 (or even $1). Judy knew what she was getting into and she also got her fish for free.

[JustinKScott]

I guess to me it breaks down into a few questions.

1.) are they healthy - I'll go visit and take some photos for posting here

2.) will I be able to breed them eventually -- that goes to you guys, will they pair if they are grown up.

3.) can I reduce to 10g/fish. -- either I need to sell some of them myself, or he needs to only sell me half.

[Discus Origins]

I would educate yourself in what to look for in healthy/quality fish, go see the fish in person, pick out the best ones and only buy those. If none of them look good, just walk away and save yourself the headache and $$ that comes with taking care of sick, weak, low quality fish.

[TURQ64]

since a lot of 'name hanging' goes along in the fish biz, I'd do the research as Mark said...And straight out, some of our sponsor's here sell high quality fish for close to that price,so.....unless they are really spectacular, I'd send the cash to a sponsor........Gary

[Larry Bugg]

To answer your breeding question...................discus do not have to grow up together and pair off. Most of the pairs that I have didn't come about that way. The point that I would bring up is that you said he had all different strains and you wanted to try breeding. If breeding is your goal then most of the time one would prefer to have two of the same strain to pair off to breed. Not all crosses will produce desireable offspring.

[JustinKScott]

To answer your breeding question...................discus do not have to grow up together and pair off. Most of the pairs that I have didn't come about that way. The point that I would bring up is that you said he had all different strains and you wanted to try breeding. If breeding is your goal then most of the time one would prefer to have two of the same strain to pair off to breed. Not all crosses will produce desireable offspring.

Thank bugman! That makes a lot of sense. I'll just go and take a look tonight and see what he has to offer.

I don't really care about the name wattley; doesn't mean anything to me if the fish are ugly or sick. ;)

Thanks everyone, I'll keep you up to date.

[zimmjeff]

If they are truly wattlys fish they shoud have a certificate with each one. If he has those and they are healthy fish I'd go for it.

[roundfishross]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I dont think wattley breeds anymore. gabe pasoda took over his hatchery quite some time ago and now days he just imports asian discus and what I have seen was not of any particular quality.

[zimmjeff]

I had a total of 12 of his fish and they were beatiful and grew very fast. It's the first time I realized that discus are not slow growing fish. I think Gabe runs the show day to day. He offered to give me jacks phone number so that I could chat with him. I did not because his wife had broken her hip. He may import but we had many talks about what he had in and the sizes. I won't tell you what I did to those fish, it invoved a grown man crying.

[roundfishross]

I have spoken with Gabe on several occasions as well. He is a great and very knowledgeable person to talk with.

[JustinKScott]

Well I'm glad I went. I'm pretty sure his tank was listed in the "what not to buy" thread.

Some of his fish were huge! Never seen a fish that size before. Like 10". All of the fish seemed nicely plump, so they've at least been eating well.

Problem was they were all very dark. Some seemed to have scales coming off... No idea what that was. All were very shy, scared of me. He didn't have 14; he had 17. His tank was a 125, but was only filled 1/2 way. There was a rainbowfish in with them, who has a VERY serious gill infection. Several were "brown"... He said they are a special kind of brown discus. No idea if that was true or just bs.

The tank itself was terrible. Food spillled everywhere. Mold growing on spoiled food.

I kind of felt bad for the guy. He is disabled, in a wheelchair. The reason he needs to sell is them is because his tank is cracking.

[mmorris]

I kind of felt bad for the guy. He is disabled, in a wheelchair. The reason he needs to sell is them is because his tank is cracking.
I assume that means you didn't bring home any fish? If so, good on you for walking away. If he is selling them because the tank is cracking and not because he suddenly found himself unable to care for them, then I don't feel bad for the guy.

[DLock3d]

Justin, if you feel like growing out juviniles. Roundfishross has some reality expensive ones for sale. He ships too.

[mmorris]

Roundfishross has some reality expensive ones for sale. He ships too.

LOL inexpensive

[Larry Bugg]

LOL inexpensive

I think he was trying to say expensive discus on sale which makes them currently inexpensive.

[JustinKScott]

I assume that means you didn't bring home any fish? If so, good on you for walking away.

Thank you. I did walk away. For $500, I'm sure I can find some juvies that I'll really love.

So where is this Round-Ross guy's no-so non-un-expensive thread?

[ericatdallas]

For $500 you could get quite a few juvies from any of the sponsors or a few adult fish to form pairs.

It's not a guarantee, but Mike and Kenny will match pairs for you so you'll get at least a male/female with a certain level of confidence.

[DLock3d]

LOL talk about typos. I was trying to say inexpensive because I didn't want to say cheap!

[JustinKScott]

It's not a guarantee, but Mike and Kenny will match pairs for you so you'll get at least a male/female with a certain level of confidence.

Still new to the forums.. Who are mike and kenny?

[Larry Bugg]

Here is one of Leo's threads (roundfishross)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89033-!!!!!!!!HEY-EVERYONE-GOT-QUARTERS!!!!!!!!

Links to Mike and Kenny

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?109-Central-Ohio-Discus-(Michael-Beals)-Galena-Ohio

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?119-Kenny-s-Discus-(Kenny-Cheung)-Daly-City-California

[JustinKScott]

I must admit, one of his fish did catch my eye... What do you think of this one?

[Al M.]

too pointy in the face..... stick with Mike or Kenny an I guarentee you'll be happy.......check out some of they're past threads on fish that they have forsale and you'll say WOW......

[DiscusFreakaZoid]

Nice intense yellow colors but the curveball is the Face. I havent seen that kind of yellow pigeon, i think it is, for sale anywhere or not many sponsors on here sell those kind of yellows at least im not aware of. I see mostly yellow albinos for sale on here. The shape is off but to each its own. Some people like nice round fish while others like bulldogs and highbodies. I personally like to mix bulls and nice round discus together. If he was selling that fish for 30 which probably could get it down to maybe 10 bucks i would get him as long as u thought he was healthy and he could mold into a nicer shape once he grows larger. Cant tell if he is a Juvie or not. Do you have a picture of the other fish you said were 10inches??? thats Ginormous. I never seen anyone post a 10incher or even a sponsor selling anything close to that size

[roundfishross]

this fish of of low quality and has not been properly grown out this is why it has the parrot beak

[mmorris]

That's some beak! I always thought that beakiness is genetic. Leo, why do you think it is environmental?

[roundfishross]

A. Soh mentions it in one of his books. dont like to quote off the top of my head. I will have to look back through them so I dont misquote.

[JustinKScott]

This thread is actually pretty good for me. It's teaching me a lot.

Let me test myself to see if I'm on target with the following fish that I turned down...

First one, stunted. Eyes too large. Neat color though.
Second, ugly color. Strange bump on forehead.
Third, too dark. Seems pissed off.
Fourth, strange speckling. He said it was a "natural reaction" to his dark substraight.. I said under my breath, "BS". Otherwise a very nice fish.
Fifth, great looking fish.. But I don't like the color.

[roundfishross]

the majority af these fish are really thin and have cloudy eyes, wich points to having internal parasites. imo they will be alot more trouble than they are worth. some look like they are knocking on deaths door!

[roundfishross]

A. Soh mentions it in one of his books. dont like to quote off the top of my head. I will have to look back through them so I dont misquote.

p.20 the naked truth. Andrew says its caused by over feeding of a discus that genetically shoud have an elongated body, when over fed the fat build up in the forehead area causes the parrot beak(paraphrased)

[JustinKScott]

Where is this book? Seems like something I should read..

[roundfishross]

Where is this book? Seems like something I should read..

definately a must read! two volumes the naked truth and problems and solutions, amazon may be your best bet for used copys. they are pretty pricey but the knowledge is well worth the coin

[Sean Buehrle]

Well I'm glad I went. I'm pretty sure his tank was listed in the "what not to buy" thread.

Some of his fish were huge! Never seen a fish that size before. Like 10". All of the fish seemed nicely plump, so they've at least been eating well.

Problem was they were all very dark. Some seemed to have scales coming off... No idea what that was. All were very shy, scared of me. He didn't have 14; he had 17. His tank was a 125, but was only filled 1/2 way. There was a rainbowfish in with them, who has a VERY serious gill infection. Several were "brown"... He said they are a special kind of brown discus. No idea if that was true or just bs.

The tank itself was terrible. Food spillled everywhere. Mold growing on spoiled food.

I kind of felt bad for the guy. He is disabled, in a wheelchair. The reason he needs to sell is them is because his tank is cracking.

Try and get a pic of those fish, I would like to see them. You never know, there might be a diamond in there somewhere. It would be cool if that 10 inch fish was a green mamba, i would dedicate a tank to that fish on its own. I believe it when you say a 10 inch fish, i seen one in chicago as big as a frisbee. I doubt the guy would say they were JW fish if he didnt believe it, if he were throwing that out there as a selling point he would be asking alot more for them. I definately wouldnt mix them with my home fish on account of thier living conditions, but would take a few off his hands.

You never know


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[roundfishross]

Try and get a pic of those fish, I would like to see them. You never know, there might be a diamond in there somewhere. It would be cool if that 10 inch fish was a green mamba, i would dedicate a tank to that fish on its own. I believe it when you say a 10 inch fish, i seen one in chicago as big as a frisbee. I doubt the guy would say they were JW fish if he didnt believe it, if he were throwing that out there as a selling point he would be asking alot more for them. I definately wouldnt mix them with my home fish on account of thier living conditions, but would take a few off his hands.

You never know


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Hey Sean I'm pretty sure that the pics he posted in this thread are the fish the guy has for sale. personally I would not risk bringing home anything that has been residing with these fish!

[JustinKScott]

The photos I've posted are a mix from the two local people who are selling their fish. None of their fish passed my sniff test, so I did not buy anything locally.

However, i wanted to make sure i wasn't being too critical; so I posted the "best of THEIR best" to make sure I'm not being too snooty.

My discus hunt falls down to one last question; LFS or a breeder (probably RoundFishRoss). 4hrs away is a really great pet shop in Portland called "the wet spot". They typically have discus juvies, and all other fish I've got from them have been great, plus I get to hand pick the fish.

However, they are fish of unknown pedigree.. So I have no idea what kind of fry they'd produce. (I have decided I will want to try breeding, just as I do currently with angels.). And @$25-50 per fish, they are more expensive than most breeders. Additionally gas vs shipping is probably a wash.

So probably a breeder is the better choice.

So I guess it really comes down to what type of fish I want and if I can find a breeder with that strain. Being that I my exposure to real life discus were pretty ugly fish, this is more difficult than it probably should be. I like my blue turq; but if I'm going to breed them I'd want a brighter patterned fish. So where to I go to figure out what I like?

Ross; you've been a big help so far; is there anyway to get a list of the strains you typically breed? Seems like a great place to start.

[JustinKScott]

Sorry, Ross, I know you answered a similar question to me through PM.

To clarify what I meant; what strains do you imagine you'll be breeding this year (assuming I can wait)?

[Sean Buehrle]

Hey Sean I'm pretty sure that the pics he posted in this thread are the fish the guy has for sale. personally I would not risk bringing home anything that has been residing with these fish!

Wow yep they are in poor condition, that sucks!



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[JustinKScott]

Wow, wow. Ok I'm done with craigslist for a while, too dangerous. I saw one final local last night. Nice guy, clean ro water, fish were healthy, brave, colorful, excited to see people... Everything I thought discus could be but had never witnessed.

Problem was the fish were highly speckled. Very highly speckled. I didn't like the speckling, but the personality sold me. I just melted when I met them.

Turned out he was expecting me to bring transport containers, and I assumed he would have had something. Miscommunication. So I got to walk away.

Fast forward to this morning... Boy I lucked out, would have definitely had buyers remorse.


He said the fish would lose the speckling on a lighter colored tank (he has a black background). Is that true? I have white sand and a white background.

[Keith Perkins]

IME a peppered (speckled in your terms) PB is a peppered PB. The spots may lighten a bit based on background and substrate color, and a few might even disappear I guess, but to say they're all just going to magically disappear is just BS. Some people don't care about peppering, but I'm NOT one of them. It's an undesirable trait and you can do better.

There are very few LFS with good discus, period. Discus require different care than your average fish and most LFS either don't have the knowledge, time, or resources to care for them properly. I have several fish that I got through a fairly good LFS before I found SD and there's no comparison in the quality of those fish to the ones I've gotten through sponsors here or produced myself since. If you've got $500 to spend on fish and you spend it locally on any of the fish you've mentioned versus spending it with Leo or a sponsor here you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice. It's hard for newbies to walk away from average or even below average fish when they're standing there looking at them, most members here have made that exact mistake. Do yourself a favor, start with above average fish and avoid kicking yourself later.

[JustinKScott]

. Do yourself a favor, start with above average fish and avoid kicking yourself later.

ok. I really do see your point. I wash my hands of CL & won't even try the LFS. Breeders for me here on out.

Leo's first! He sent me a listing of his strains & I'll look them up tonight.

[Keith Perkins]

ok. I really do see your point. I wash my hands of CL & won't even try the LFS. Breeders for me here on out.

Leo's first! He sent me a listing of his strains & I'll look them up tonight.

I can just about guarantee if you do what you say you're going to you'll be happier. Whether it be Leo, one of the other regular home breeders here, or a sponsor. Best of luck to you.

[cjr8420]

if u dont like the little blk spots make a request with whomever no PB based fish.if u dont mind then nevermind. im with keith no pidgeon bloods

[Randy-S]

IME a peppered (speckled in your terms) PB is a peppered PB. The spots may lighten a bit based on background and substrate color, and a few might even disappear I guess, but to say they're all just going to magically disappear is just BS. Some people don't care about peppering, but I'm NOT one of them. It's an undesirable trait and you can do better.

There are very few LFS with good discus, period. Discus require different care than your average fish and most LFS either don't have the knowledge, time, or resources to care for them properly. I have several fish that I got through a fairly good LFS before I found SD and there's no comparison in the quality of those fish to the ones I've gotten through sponsors here or produced myself since. If you've got $500 to spend on fish and you spend it locally on any of the fish you've mentioned versus spending it with Leo or a sponsor here you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice. It's hard for newbies to walk away from average or even below average fish when they're standing there looking at them, most members here have made that exact mistake. Do yourself a favor, start with above average fish and avoid kicking yourself later.

This is untrue speckling can occur with stress and aquarium decorations. I purchased non speckeled fish from Kenny and he has occured speckling in my tank.
The specks can come and go with stress of the fish simlor to the side bars that show up with stress on a non PG discus

[Keith Perkins]

This is untrue speckling can occur with stress and aquarium decorations. I purchased non speckeled fish from Kenny and he has occured speckling in my tank.
The specks can come and go with stress of the fish simlor to the side bars that show up with stress on a non PG discus

I've seen actual faint stress bars on my own young PB fry and later juvies that appeared as peppering that disappeared as they grew out. And if you got a high quality adult Kenny fish I can see where it could show signs of peppering after shipping that disappeared once it acclimated, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about an acclimated fish of unknown origin that an unknown owner is trying to get rid of who claims just by changing the background and substrate is going to lose it's peppering. I'll give you there's a chance it could happen, but I'd say about 99 times out of 100 it doesn't.

[JustinKScott]

. I'll give you there's a chance it could happen, but I'd say about 99 times out of 100 it doesn't.

Good, that's what I figured. I dont figure he was lying to me, I just expect he didn't know any better.