Controversial Questions??

[coralreefer68]

Good Morning all,
As you can see from my number of posts, I am new here. I have been cruising around for about 3-4 months to get information on Discus because I want to give them the best opportunity to survive and thrive that I can. Yes I am new to Discus, but I am not new to keeping fish, both fresh and salt. My questions are regarding the different information that I read here, some of which is contradictory, some seems to be outdated and some seems to be rather focused more on personal preference rather than objectiveness. As a new Discus keeper I have gained some valuable information on this site as well as finding what seems to be the best breeders/sellers of discus anywhere on the net. As I live in an area that is almost impossible to find discus (Northern NC), the net was about my only option for buying nice healthy discus with any sort of variety. So, to my questions...
1) I have been told to go BB several times and my PB based fish (Blue Pigeon, Red Pigeon and Marlboro Red ?) peppering would decrease or go away completely, but the RP and the MR arrived with peppering already and came from Hans who has BB tanks I assume, so how would BB tanks help? I have drift wood, live plants and a few dark rocks as well as a light blue (water) background with a play sand substrate that is off-white. I have seen other tanks in the planted tanks forum similar to my tank in appearance, with PBs that are not peppered, so is going BB to reduce peppering fact or conjecture??
2) There seems to be some prejudice against PB based Discus, yet a lot of the sellers here do seem to sell PB based fish, so why does it seem they are frowned upon?? From reading as many posts as I can, I know they tend to pepper and some do so worse than others, yet they are beautiful and seem to be an integral part of the Discus genetic pool. Is there a prejudice against PB based fish and if so, why?
3) I am normally a rather quiet person, even online, and do not say or post a whole lot. If I am unsure of an answer to a question, I don't answer because I do not want to give wrong information that could create a problem for someone else. I love to look at everyone elses fish pics and read the comments. It was an exciting day for me when I received my fish from Hans and I went outside my normal self and posted to the forum and then have posted pics.....and have not received many responses. I see so many people responding to others, especially to established members. As a new person, am I doing something wrong in my posting? Are my fish considered/viewed as inferior so no one wants to comment? They are from Hans so I thought that they were top-notch (To me they are beautiful/playful and interactive beyond description). Or is it because I am new, quiet and went against the grain and against advise for newbies by having a planted tank??
I am honestly not complaining about this site, I would just truly like to know the answers to these questions. I have learned more from this site by picking through the enormous amount of information and gathering the pieces that seem to be pertinent and putting the puzzle together than I have from all the other sites on the net combined.
Thank you for all that you all have shared with me and thank you for reading my mini-novel here.

Respectfully,
John

[Hsunami]

1. It really doesn't matter if you are going BB or not for peppering. It really depends on the background and such. The point of going BB for discus users is that it makes cleaning A WHOLE LOT EASIER. Because of the massive times of feedings you are doing each day, and the giant poops that land on the bottom. And pretty much have to clean every single day. I personally do 90% water changes everyday. And if i had substrate or plants in the way i would be pissed and not do it. Unless you add sand or something then like close to white sand will reduce peppering. The brighter the enviorment the less peppering the PB strains will have.

2. not sure about prejudice but it really just the peppering that can get to people. Because the other strains will not develop this peppering. In the right conditions PB fish can be just as beautiful as any other strain out there with minimum peppering.

3. if your not sure and want to answers questions or what not. Just state what you think then just say wait for others to comment if you are not 100%. That way you gain valuable experience too when people correct what you said.

Never seen your pictures so i'm not sure.

Like right now i just fed at least 4x in the past 3 hours but they finish everything i give them. Its not like i throw so much in there that theres left over. Than before i head to work i am going to siphon up last night's poop and whatever food is left over if theres any. Then back to the same thing once i get home then 90% water change before sleep.

just my 2 cents

[atitagain]

I have a display tank with substrate and QT tanks that are BB, the peppering doesn't change from one to the other. Personally the peppering doesn't bother me or my wife and our PB is one of the nicest fish we have in our tank.

I have almost a year under my belt with the display tank and if you use a fine gravel it takes very little time to get it clean. I feed frequently each day and can knock out water changes on my 150 and 75 in about 1.5 hours and most of that time is simply waiting for the balance of the water to drain once the gravel is clean. I find it calming to work on my tanks and like the look of the gravel. And for what it's worth all may WC are done in the evening so I can get the tank clean and let the guys graze on what's left on the bottom of the tank.

As far as some of your posts going unanwsered I don't think that it has anything to do with you being new. Some of these folks have been around a while and know each other pretty well so they can have a friendly dialogue. Being pretty much in the same boat as you (new) I think once you get more into the mix you'll see things change. It's no different than going to a party, you stand in the corner until you start Bs'ing with people.

[Sean Buehrle]

Ill answer part of your question as i see it about being biased on pigeons.

I myself love pigeons, peppering does not bother me, and i would expect it if i got a pigeon. There are certainly fish that i dont like, i seen some fish going for alot of money hrre recently and wouldnt buy them for any amount because i dont like thier look. Ive never liked marlboro reds for some reason, and when they first came out they were the rage. Its just the tint that i dont like, same as an orange car, i wouldnt buy one.

What i like is just my taste, doesnt mean my fish is better than anyone elses.

Most of the time ill take a red turq over any fish because they are my favorite.
Dont be so shy, get in there and converse, everyone around here is pretty cool, and thick skinned.

You just have to like whats yours.

As far as making mistakes go, i can certainly make some, thats cause i dont really know crap compared to alot of people, thats why im here. I want to learn everything i can about discus, im sure ive posted stuff that some think is just plain stupid but as long as i learn something im happy. Again im thick skinned when it comes to dealing with others over the internet.

Just have fun and enjoy your fish, try not to kill em. Thats what i do. : )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I have Eco-Complete as a substrate (black) in my 95 gallon planted tank and a somewhat dark background. I have 4 Tropical Reds from Kenny in California. One year later, no peppering of any kind and from my understanding, tropical reds are a type of pigeon blood base discus.

I think like other mention on this website, its just personal preference as to what you like or dislike.

One thing I can say for sure is, there are soooo many knowledgeable people here who have years of experience and they are not afraid to share their information.

When I started back into discus, I came here first because it was rated number one discus forum. And in my opinion, still is. You have so many people here like "Eddie", "Hans", "Bill P" from Chicago, "Cozykeith" and so many others that when they talk, I listen.

Well with all their advice, a year later my discus are alive (Lol), healthy, great water conditions, etc. If you ask a question and don't get an answer right away, do not be discouraged, that could just mean that someone does not want to answer and give bad advice. Or they wait for the experts to chime in first.

You could not have picked a better website to learn about discus!

[Skip]

oh.. sorry.. if its over 140 characters.. i just can' read it.. :) D@MN YOU FACEBOOK!

ps.. i like pigeon bloods :)

[Larry Bugg]

I have never thought to tell someone to go bb to reduce peppering. I do believe based both on personal experience and what I have read from experienced discus keepers that the color of your substrate or glass bottom if no substrate along with the color of the back and items in the tank will definitely affect the peppering of PB discus to some degree. Not only does it affect PB based discus but it can affect any discus. It is just more noticeable with PB due to the peppering. Some of my first discus were Red melons and Blue diamonds. My first tanks were all painted black on the bottom and back. I came from a planted tank background and the black was great with plants. My Red melons peppered something terrible and the Blue diamonds got real dark. I then read about how the colors affect them and took off the black paint and painted them a pastel. Within days most of the peppering dissappeared from the RM and the BD lightened up dramatically.

I looked at your first posted pictures and then the updates. It may just be the pictures but the updated looked to me to show a lot more peppering than the pics when you first got them.

You will find people who really like PB's whether there is pepper or not. You will find people who only like them when they don't pepper. It is all a matter of personal preference. There are a heck of a lot of PB's sold so I don't think there is widespread prejudice against them.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there CR! (Uh huh, I'm too lazy to type that whole long name, so from here on out you are CR to me.) :)

I own a Hans Marlboro Red! I wasn't really thrilled with most pigeon blood strains since the only other discus I ever owned was a heckel and I was used to the dark bars, etc.

But, I loved the look of the Marlboro so I decided to buy one. I'm not so sure he fits in with the color scheme of the rest of the group, but oh well, he's a show stopper!

So about the peppering. I think it gets confusing when you read BB and peppering in so many threads on here. The BB part is actually to make is easier to grow out juvie discus (most times that's considered under 3" - 3.5").

The peppering problem is a whole nother thing. I had a dark substrate when I got my Marlboro and he did pepper quite a bit on his nose. Like little freckles. His fins also got quite dark.

Then I switched to a much more lightly planted tank, light colored sand and one hunk of light colored driftwood as a centerpiece. He lost a LOT of the dark color on his fins, and the freckles are less noticeable now, but they're still there.

It's just part of pigeon blood genetics. They had the dark bars bred out, but some of the black genes remain, so it shows up in the peppering and the dark fins.

Another thing that can affect the amount of peppering you see is stress. Same as the other strains show stress by showing their bars, pigeon bloods pepper up in response to the stress.

So long as your substrate is light in color and the tank isn't under heavy stress then you can just relax and enjoy your MR's, freckles and all. =)

I find that now that my Marlboro is larger, I don't notice his peppering nearly as much because all I see is that big round gorgeous, flame colored fish dashing around the tank.

For question number 2, I do find that some people don't like pigeon bloods on these forums. It's just a personal thing, so I don't let it worry me too much. Everyone has their own preferences in which strains they like best.

And about your pics...where the heck are they??? I've never seen your babies or I would have said something for sure cuz I love looking at everyone's pictures!

Go ahead and post some on this thread for me, k? I can't get enough of Hans fishies. LOL

[pcsb23]

Good Morning all,
As you can see from my number of posts, I am new here. I have been cruising around for about 3-4 months to get information on Discus because I want to give them the best opportunity to survive and thrive that I can. Yes I am new to Discus, but I am not new to keeping fish, both fresh and salt. My questions are regarding the different information that I read here, some of which is contradictory, some seems to be outdated and some seems to be rather focused more on personal preference rather than objectiveness. As a new Discus keeper I have gained some valuable information on this site as well as finding what seems to be the best breeders/sellers of discus anywhere on the net. As I live in an area that is almost impossible to find discus (Northern NC), the net was about my only option for buying nice healthy discus with any sort of variety. So, to my questions...You will always get contradictory advice from a large diverse group of people, picking the pieces of advice to take on board takes a little time and research ;)


1) I have been told to go BB several times and my PB based fish (Blue Pigeon, Red Pigeon and Marlboro Red ?) peppering would decrease or go away completely, but the RP and the MR arrived with peppering already and came from Hans who has BB tanks I assume, so how would BB tanks help? I have drift wood, live plants and a few dark rocks as well as a light blue (water) background with a play sand substrate that is off-white. I have seen other tanks in the planted tanks forum similar to my tank in appearance, with PBs that are not peppered, so is going BB to reduce peppering fact or conjecture??There are a couple of points here, first off PB's will pepper if their surroundings are dark, have dark objects or have a dark substrate and/or sides. In my experience they generally pepper in planted tanks, both low tech and high tech.

Secondly they will also pepper if the water quality isn't up to scratch as this will stress them, and they will also pepper when put under stress. I am not surprised they showed pepper when they arrived as shipping is stressful! If you did not see them in Hans's tanks then we do not know if they were peppered or not there.

If the peppered fish are placed in a BB tank with pale coloured sides & floor and proper water quality then the pepper will reduce significantly and in some cases disappears totally - this latter statement is not conjecture or opinion, but fact.


2) There seems to be some prejudice against PB based Discus, yet a lot of the sellers here do seem to sell PB based fish, so why does it seem they are frowned upon?? From reading as many posts as I can, I know they tend to pepper and some do so worse than others, yet they are beautiful and seem to be an integral part of the Discus genetic pool. Is there a prejudice against PB based fish and if so, why? PB's are not everyones choice, just the same as in cars or cameras, some will rave over a Ford, some over Ferrari. Likewise some think Cannons are the best and others will tell you Nikons are. If you like PB's that is all that should matter to you. The vast majority of the newer strains owe an awful lot to PB's btw.


3) I am normally a rather quiet person, even online, and do not say or post a whole lot. If I am unsure of an answer to a question, I don't answer because I do not want to give wrong information that could create a problem for someone else. I love to look at everyone elses fish pics and read the comments. It was an exciting day for me when I received my fish from Hans and I went outside my normal self and posted to the forum and then have posted pics.....and have not received many responses. I see so many people responding to others, especially to established members. As a new person, am I doing something wrong in my posting? Are my fish considered/viewed as inferior so no one wants to comment? They are from Hans so I thought that they were top-notch (To me they are beautiful/playful and interactive beyond description). Or is it because I am new, quiet and went against the grain and against advise for newbies by having a planted tank??I cannot speak for others, I had not seen them as such until now, and I compared them now as to when you bought them. Generally I will not comment on discus pictures, particularly if the discus themselves are not great. I do not wish to come across mean, but perhaps you should have heeded the advice of the many who suggested a BB tank. The fish as they are now are falling behind in terms of growth, and whilst they seem to be healthy, they will end up falling short of their true potential. In short you are stunting them. If you compare the pictures in this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88101-Just-got-my-order-from-Hans.....&highlight= to the pictures in your latest picture thread here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89198-Updated-Pics&highlight= you will see that the eye size is much larger on the latter than the former compared to the body and that the fish are looking a little pointier. They need a lot of clean water and good food to get the best from them, ideally being fed several times a day. I don't mean to be harsh, just trying to explain why.


I am honestly not complaining about this site, I would just truly like to know the answers to these questions. I have learned more from this site by picking through the enormous amount of information and gathering the pieces that seem to be pertinent and putting the puzzle together than I have from all the other sites on the net combined.
Thank you for all that you all have shared with me and thank you for reading my mini-novel here.

Respectfully,
JohnI for one had not taken this as a complaint, I hope you take my response in the spirit in which it was written.

[discolicious]

Hi John...

I'll tell you up front that my Checkerboard PB is one of my favorites. He isn't my prettiest as far as shape goes, but I love his personality. He makes no bones about his intentions when it comes feeding time, and if I play it just right, he'll actually let me pet him. He is peppered more than most people would like, but I'm not planning to breed him or to show him. The way I see it, most of us on here wouldn't win any beauty contests either! :)

The tank he's in has no paint or substrate, and the only time I notice any worsening of his peppering is when he's stressed. I do plan on buying some others with the intention of possibly breeding them, so I'll be looking for less peppered ones, and then I may try lightening up the tank.

Don't worry about asking any questions you want, or objecting to anything you think is just hog wash.. There's a lot we don't know for sure about the hobby. At the same time, you'll find a huge amount of subjective experience by successful discus folks on here that is definitely useful. I question everything.

There are a lot of us new folks around here. I actually joined years ago, but had to give up my discus for a while and just didn't return until a couple of months ago when I was able to resume. Many folks on here have known each other for a long time, many have met, attended Discus shows together, etc. It's natural that they seem to converse with more familiarity. But one thing I've noticed is how eager they are to respond to any question. (Be sure to check the archives first, there's a lot there) but most of them enjoy being involved in what's happening at the moment and don't want you to just come on, check the archives and not let them be a part of your experience. If it were that way, I wouldn't bother with it much.

Post some new pics of your fish. I'd love to see them. Here's a bad pic of "Don Juan Damas" .

[mmorris]

[QUOTE=coralreefer68;778500] Are my fish considered/viewed as inferior so no one wants to comment?
The forum members are a friendly bunch; you'll fit right in. :) If you want to know what members think of your fish, I recommend you post pics of a side profile of the fish. Ask people what they think of your fish, but don't say where you got them. You don't want answers influenced one way or the other.

[farebox]

I'm an newbie too, been keeping discus fish for a good year now, and have acquired a ton of excellent information from the forum, and highly recommend you let this info sink in and follow it. Don't make this stuff too complicated. I consider simlydiscus.com the "holy grille"--it's here for guidance, follow and you will have quality fish to enjoy...
I feel people that worry to much about this and that, will have an hard time, just buy quality fish from good breeders, KISS (keep it simple), water changes, good food equal success my good friend.
farebox

[Keith Perkins]

Well dang John, I bet you won't be complaining about your lack of responses on this thread. :D Jeff listed me as one of the many people he really listens to, I'm flattered. I'll tell you upfront though he doesn't listen to me because I'm that smart, but because I've made PLENTY of mistakes and I'll quickly admit to them in attempt to help others. Paul on the other hand who posted earlier here is actually that smart and very experienced too so I hope you take his comments in the helpful way I'm SURE they were meant.

Pigeon Bloods - I've got a couple and probably won't ever buy another one. I got back into discus after a long separation and before I found Simply Discus. I didn't know some of the finer points of what constituted quality discus and my initial purchases show it. It bugs me that I bought a few of the fish I did, particularly the peppered PBs. Buying PBs, particularly when you like to buy small fish and grow them out like I do, just adds one more thing to the list of negatives an adult can have and I choose to avoid it going forward. Not a prejudice, just a personal choice to remove one variable. Oops, maybe that was one of the personal preferences you were talking about.

I'm sure I only hit a point or two of your post, but others before me did a great job hitting most of them. I just wanted to express my opinion concerning PBs so you could have a little of the opposing points of view you mentioned seeing here on the forum just to prove you right. :)

A belated welcome to SD,
Keith

[ockyra215]

Well the way I see it is like this and sort of general opinion on your post.

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

If you like pigeon bloods that's good most do its the peppering that is controversial.There are a lot of strains to choose from pick what you like best.

Read a lot and not just here get some books although this is a great place for information!

Good luck and welcome to simply!

[coralreefer68]

Thank you everyone for your posts, comments, evaluations ( Paul ;) ) and encouragement, I have enjoyed reading them. I will be honest, I love my new babies and I was taking some of the comments about PBs personal so I guess I was doing the exact thing that I commented about. At this time, I am not planning on trying to breed them, I have just truly fallen back in love with this hobby since I bought my discus. I know this will be a learning experience with them and I just hope that I can give them a long, peaceful, happy life since they are giving me so much enjoyment. I have purchased an autofeeder to feed them their favorite flake (Tetra tropical crisps mixed with beef heart flake) 3x's a day (I feed them 2xs a day by hand also) while I am gone (I work 13hrs a day 4-5 days a week with drive time) and I will increase my water changes even more to try and give them the potential that they deserve.
I recently changed from gravel bottom to the play sand and I think they have actually lightened up on the peppering, the MR is the heaviest peppered still, but I can live with that...I think it adds character...As far as going BB tank, I just can't see them in it, its like sitting in an empty glass house and having food thrown at you. Sure you might fatten up, but are you happy? I am sure it makes water changes MUCH easier, but it is not visibly appealing nor, I think, is it emotionally/sensory appealing to the fish...........Am I giving them too much credit??
Anyway, Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom and encouragement...you have given me a LOT to think about...

John

[richiethebing]

I have two PB based fish one looks aweful like someone took a sharpie from his dorsal fin to the top of his mouth. The other one has very little, and it looks great.

[shoveltrash]

hi John - I'm new here and stumbled across your thread.....how are your fish six months later? I love PBs! and have 2 of my own :). not show-quality, but beautiful in MY eyes and have fantastic personalities!
so, belated *HI* from a fellow North-Carolinian! - Trish

[gerrard00]

Thank you everyone for your posts, comments, evaluations ( Paul ;) ) and encouragement, I have enjoyed reading them. I will be honest, I love my new babies and I was taking some of the comments about PBs personal so I guess I was doing the exact thing that I commented about. At this time, I am not planning on trying to breed them, I have just truly fallen back in love with this hobby since I bought my discus. I know this will be a learning experience with them and I just hope that I can give them a long, peaceful, happy life since they are giving me so much enjoyment. I have purchased an autofeeder to feed them their favorite flake (Tetra tropical crisps mixed with beef heart flake) 3x's a day (I feed them 2xs a day by hand also) while I am gone (I work 13hrs a day 4-5 days a week with drive time) and I will increase my water changes even more to try and give them the potential that they deserve.
I recently changed from gravel bottom to the play sand and I think they have actually lightened up on the peppering, the MR is the heaviest peppered still, but I can live with that...I think it adds character...As far as going BB tank, I just can't see them in it, its like sitting in an empty glass house and having food thrown at you. Sure you might fatten up, but are you happy? I am sure it makes water changes MUCH easier, but it is not visibly appealing nor, I think, is it emotionally/sensory appealing to the fish...........Am I giving them too much credit??
Anyway, Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom and encouragement...you have given me a LOT to think about...

John

I will never again raise juvies in a planted tank. Never again. Even with massive daily water changes my tank was always dirty and there was always leftover food in nooks and crannies. If it's a choice between living in a clean glass house with food thrown at me for the first year of my life or living in a house with unhealthy air but attractive furniture, I'll go for the glass house. A year passes pretty quickly. If I ever buy juvies again, it'll be BB for the first year of their lives and then display tank once they are grown out.

[chiligum]

PB were my 1st Discus only because at the time, that's what was flavour of the month in the Discus world...They were beautiful Fish with light peppering but i still loved them all...Nowdays i prefer the more natural colours to the big brash garish colours that have appeared but again, it's all down to one thing.....Personal choice.....Enjoy the Fish you have, they're yours, no-one else's!:)

[nc0gnet0]

Secondly they will also pepper if the water quality isn't up to scratch as this will stress them, and they will also pepper when put under stress. I am not surprised they showed pepper when they arrived as shipping is stressful! If you did not see them in Hans's tanks then we do not know if they were peppered or not there.


Nice to see that mentioned Paul, as it rarely gets brought up regarding PB's and peppering. If I might add to this, based on my personal observations, not only water quality, but water "softness" plays a role as well. I have noticed peppering all but disapear when I keep TDS levels down. Another thing I might mention as well is lighting, for some reason the actual spectrum of light seems to have an effect on them as well, with higher K levels being preffered (think more towards the blue spectrum and less towards the yellow).

Generally speaking, alot (not all) of the people that profess to not like pigeon bloods have no real idea how many of the newer strains actually posses the PB gene, many times in a heterogenoous state.

While I find peppering relatively unattractive, a truly clean PB is a thing of beauty.

Rick

[ExReefer]

I will never again raise juvies in a planted tank. Never again. Even with massive daily water changes my tank was always dirty and there was always leftover food in nooks and crannies. If it's a choice between living in a clean glass house with food thrown at me for the first year of my life or living in a house with unhealthy air but attractive furniture, I'll go for the glass house. A year passes pretty quickly. If I ever buy juvies again, it'll be BB for the first year of their lives and then display tank once they are grown out.

+1 It's a battle not worth fighting unless you can accept rasing discus that won't reach their full potential. Nothing wrong with that.

[Len]

+1 It's a battle not worth fighting unless you can accept rasing discus that won't reach their full potential. Nothing wrong with that.i


I have to disagree with that. Yes, of lot of people will tell you this, but you can raise discus to full potential in planted tanks. I've done it. It does add a lot more work though.

[Skip]

I have to disagree with that. Yes, of lot of people will tell you this, but you can raise discus to full potential in planted tanks. I've done it. It does add a lot more work though.

PICS!!

[Len]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64371695@N02/