Interesting Rose Red Spawn

[Barrie]

Hello everyone,
Looking for some help with this please.
I have a young pair of Rose Reds that have just had their second successful spawn. The first spawn yielded 8 babies ... all look "normal".

Their second spawn of about 30 fry attached to the parents on the 28th June. Interesting thing is that there are 3 babies that are white at this stage as compared to the rest of them that are the normal darker coloured ones. The white fry are eating off the parents as normal and growing at the same rate as the others in the spawn.
I dare not take pictures at this stage in case I upset them.

Any ideas what these could be? I assume it is some type of throwback from their heritage.
Thanks for your help
Barrie

[Rod]

Hello everyone,
Looking for some help with this please.
I have a young pair of Rose Reds that have just had their second successful spawn. The first spawn yielded 8 babies ... all look "normal".

Their second spawn of about 30 fry attached to the parents on the 28th June. Interesting thing is that there are 3 babies that are white at this stage as compared to the rest of them that are the normal darker coloured ones. The white fry are eating off the parents as normal and growing at the same rate as the others in the spawn.
I dare not take pictures at this stage in case I upset them.

Any ideas what these could be? I assume it is some type of throwback from their heritage.
Thanks for your help
Barrie

Hi Barrie,

Probably carrying a recessive golden gene. Check this thread out> http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88735-Curipera-with-fry-%28pictures%29

[mmorris]

My red covers produced some goldens. They looked white at the fry stage.

[Barrie]

Thanks Rod and mmorris. Rod these are the rose reds I got through one of your shipments. I take it when you both say they may be goldens you are talking about a solid golden/yellow coloured fish. Sounds great to me if they are. Would it be worthwhile to grow these out and breed with them to see what the next generation on holds?
mmorris did you go down this path with yours?
Thanks for the help
Barrie

[mmorris]

Would it be worthwhile to grow these out and breed with them to see what the next generation on holds?
mmorris did you go down this path with yours?
Thanks for the help
Barrie
I'm waiting for them to pair up. They're pretty small compared to their siblings though.

[Rod]

Thanks Rod and mmorris. Rod these are the rose reds I got through one of your shipments. I take it when you both say they may be goldens you are talking about a solid golden/yellow coloured fish. Sounds great to me if they are. Would it be worthwhile to grow these out and breed with them to see what the next generation on holds?
mmorris did you go down this path with yours?
Thanks for the help
Barrie

Hi Barrie

Its possible they may be solid yellow/golden color, some goldens are. But it is the gene that is called golden these days, and not so much to do with the color. Many are not yellow/golden colored due to crossbreeding with other types. Like Rick's in that link i supplied above, i wouldn't be suprised to see a large red content in his discus when they grow out some more. Most likely the parents are from a line where the breeder was experimenting with golden based discus, and your parents are a type of throwback. Personally, i would keep breeding them, this gene is pretty easy to control and purify if you wanted too. It is also possible to completely remove it through selective breeding, if you wanted to make a line of truebreeding rose reds from them.

Rod :)

[nc0gnet0]

Personally, i would keep breeding them, this gene is pretty easy to control and purify if you wanted too. It is also possible to completely remove it through selective breeding, if you wanted to make a line of truebreeding rose reds from them.

Wouldn't doing so require the crossing of the offspring (the ones your trying to purifry) to a golden for experimental purposes to determine if the non-golden held one recessive golden gene?

Rick

[Rod]

Wouldn't doing so require the crossing of the offspring (the ones your trying to purifry) to a golden for experimental purposes to determine if the non-golden held one recessive golden gene?

Rick

Exactly Rick. The golden gene is the easy bit, to remove the gene is a bit more complicated. Darn recessives :D

[vss]

could be either golden or ghost type.

Xiaofei :)

[Barrie]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Genetics has always interested me but always loses me very quickly. I am a real beginner in this field. Perhaps if I say what I understand to be true you may be able to correct me and put me on the right path.
If the Rose Red parents I have both carry the golden (or ghost) recessive gene then the fry which I have now should be roughly

25% of the babies should be pure Rose Red
50% of the babies carrying both the Rose Red and Golden (or Ghost) gene (but looking like the dominant gene of the two - I assume Rose Red)
25% of the babies should be pure Golden (or Ghost), which may explain the 3 white coloured babies in the spawn of about 25 to 30

The trouble I would have then is telling which ones were the pure Rose Reds as 75% (25%+50%) would all look like Rose Reds if that were the dominant colour.
Is my thinking anywhere near correct??

Thanks
Barrie

[Rod]

Your thinking is very good. The easiest way to discern is by breeding a rose red with a golden sibling (or any golden for that matter) and if the rose red is a carrier you should receive around 50% goldens in the fry. No golden fry, then it is not a carrier and no recessives remain.
3 out of 25-30 fry is not exactly the 25% we should expect, but from my experience with golden crosses, it is not an unusual number. For some reason i have always received less than the expected, and have speculated this is due to the golden being a weaker fish. Perhaps the golden fry are more prone to death during the embryonic stage, die in the egg and consequently don't reach the expected percentage.

[Barrie]

Thanks Rod, looks like I have a fair amount of work ahead of me. I would love to seperate the strains and have a pure type of both.
I will try to get some pictures of the pair and fry in the next week or two so you can see.
Thanks
Barrie

[mmorris]

I got roughly 25% goldens,25% red covers and 50% browns from my pair of red covers.

[Barrie]

I got roughly 25% goldens,25% red covers and 50% browns from my pair of red covers.

and to me (if I am correct) those goldens and red cover babies should then be a pure strains. Is that correct ???? Percentages are about spot on for what is expected mmorris. Please let me know if/when you have any luck with the pairing of the goldens. I would love to know the outcome.
thanks
Barrie

[mmorris]

and to me (if I am correct) those goldens and red cover babies should then be a pure strains. Is that correct ????

That's a Rod-type question. I don't know that it's that straight-forward.

[nc0gnet0]

The goldens would be pure, I don't think the browns would be.

[Barrie]

Would the 25% that are Red Covers also be pure??

[nc0gnet0]

Would the 25% that are Red Covers also be pure??

Not neccesarily, they could still have one recessive golden gene.

[Rod]

Not neccesarily, they could still have one recessive golden gene.

Thats correct Rick. :)

Barrie, unfortunetly you can't tell just by looking, you will really need to prove it by testing before you can know for sure. Like i said before 'darn recessives'.

[Barrie]

Thought I had it now I'm lost. haha
I don't know why the 25% Red Covers can't be pure if the Goldens are??? :confused:

I based my thinking on the table below.

[Rod]

Hi Barrie,

If you like you can call me on 0405 253 533. Or PM me your number and suitable calling times and i'll phone you.

I can see where you are being confused, by the way you filled out the punnent square. You are thinking the golden gene is homologous with the red cover gene, but this is not the case. The discus is both a red cover and golden, 2 seperate things and not connected at all. If you want to talk about it, i feel i can explain myself much better on the phone or in person than over the internet.

Regards

Rod

[Barrie]

Thanks Rod,
I'll give you a ring.
Barrie