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steakman
07-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Hi,

First, I want to say hi to everyone here. I just signed up a few days ago.
I got very excited trying to read all the knowledge and experience from ppl in this forum.
When I have a chance, I look for threads with pics of parents and frys. I enjoy so much ... it's better than sex ... imo ... :o

Here's my dilemma.

I bought a breeding pair of red turq from a guy on Craigslist 2 months ago. They are both healthy, and eats like pigs. The male is slightly smaller than the female.

In the last 6 weeks they have laid eggs 4 times. The first time, they consumed their eggs on the spot.

The second time, the eggs lasted for about few hours, then were disappeared.

The third time, they took half of my 75 gallon tank, and chased away everyone. It's a community tank with 6 discus, the pair included. They took turn to fan their eggs dutifully. One takes a break, the other takes over. One goes eat, the other stand by watching. It lasted 2 days, then the eggs were gone again. I thought they got stressed out due to others, so I set them up in a breeding tank, 30 gallon with a very quiet small canister eheim filter, and a sponge filter.

The female laid eggs during my lunch time, so I have an hour to observe from the beginning.

The female laid the first round of eggs, roughly about 10 of them per round. The male followed and ate these eggs at once. He did the same the last time. After 3 round, roughly about 20-30 eggs, the male consumed them all.

She just ignored him, and went about with her business. After that, she kept on laying eggs for the next hour or so, roughly about 50-60 eggs. The male did not eat any more of these new ones. I did not see him do the fertilize thing. I did not watch it the whole show anyways.

The next 2 and a half days, they took turn doing their job. I thought I had a bunch of frys comes this morning. But they all were gone last night.

The eggs first looked brownish in color, but turn to crystal clear after the second day, last night with a few were still brown. I have had lots of experience in the past with eggs bearing South American cichlids, so I know when the eggs have no fertilized. They would turn to milky white, like the color of chicken egg's shell. But these were very clear, kinda transparency, see-thru balls.

Should I just leave them alone, and hope they would correct themselves in the next few tries?

Is it normal for the male to "taste" the first few eggs in every batch?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

nc0gnet0
07-01-2011, 01:34 PM
Possibly two females. Typically around 30 hours or so, the eggs will develope a dark spot. If they stay crystal clear then they are most likely not fertilized. let the get better adjusted to the new tank and give them a few more spawns and see what happens.

steakman
07-01-2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks for your input.
Why were they together the whole time in the community tank, like lovers?
They fight everyone else but not each other?
They did the shaking dance like peacocks.
I don't get it.
Are they lesbian? I watched Discovery Channel about the homosexuality in animal sometimes ago too ...
As first the eggs were brown, and later turn into crystal clear, not milky white though.

Shall I put them back in the community tank and hope they would eventually find a mate?

steakman
07-04-2011, 07:26 PM
After the last batch of eggs was eaten, out of frustration, I put them back in the community tank again. Just less than 5 days later (4:00pm EST on July the fourth), the female laid at least a couple hundred eggs again.

I did not see the male (supposedly) did any fertilizing the eggs. What does he suppose to do?

They are now guarding the eggs again. They take turn to fan the eggs, and chase away the rest to the far corner of the tank.

My questions are:

- If both of them are female, is it normal for them to act this way? They both prepared the intake tube carefully. The female laid eggs, and the whole time the male would rub his body to the female's.

- The (supposedly) male turns super aggressive toward the rest of the tank mates during this time. He even roughs up the one that beats him up all the time recklessly.

- He is about 4.5 inch in length, a little bit smaller than the female.

- Can you tell if he is actually a male ... :D (picture included)

- If he is, could he be infertile?

I have no experience in breeding discus, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Picture of the male (supposedly)


http://i54.tinypic.com/dn28li.jpg


Turned into a monster in the tank. Terrorized everyone.


http://i52.tinypic.com/23ns6v.jpg


Performs his duty (fanning the eggs), and let his lady does the nasty work (chasing others). They took over 80% of the tank.


http://i52.tinypic.com/2cxgsi9.jpg

steakman
07-05-2011, 11:59 AM
Any idea, anyone?
They still take turn fanning the eggs as of now.

MostlyDiscus
07-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Knowing if you have a male and female would be a start. Pull the eggs and treat with meth blue and a airstone to see if you get wigglers. If so then you at least have a pair.

kaceyo
07-05-2011, 01:25 PM
Discus can come up with dozens of possible scenarios and it's impossible to say which yours are involved with. First, it doesn't sound like the male(?) is making runs over the eggs. As soon as the female makes her run, laying the eggs, the male should come along behind and make his run along the eggs, looking basicly just like the female did, and fertilize them. If that isn't happening, the eggs can't be fertilized.
As for whether the male IS a male, the only way to be 100% sure is to find wrigglers hatching from the eggs. A female can go through all the motions of being a male and fool you.
A females sex organ is longer and blunter at the tip, while a males is shorter and pointier. Watch for this when they spawn to see if that helps to figure out if it's a male.
It can take a pair quite a few tries before they get it right so I'd let them keep trying and watch as closely as possible, learning and asking questions as you go.

Discus Origins
07-05-2011, 01:36 PM
The only way to claim 'breeding' pair is to have proof these fish raised fry, with pix/video/etc. I'm going to assume at this point there wasn't any if that. Two possibilities here, could be 2 females as some have already suggested or could be that be male is still immature. Since you have seen any activity or witnessed concentrated efforts in his part to fertilize. I've had young males that would defend and display dance but not do runs for another 6 months. They either need some more time or could be two females if you happen to catch both tubes in action.

steakman
07-05-2011, 02:39 PM
Thanks for all responses, guys ... and gals ... :D

I saw the one supposedly male tube protruding during the run, and yes, his thing is real small compare to the female who laid eggs.

I guess that he is still young and may not be ready yet. I'll let the nature runs it course.

I'll report back every now and then about the result.

Two more questions though:

- If a fish is a female, even without a male companion, will she lay eggs during her life time?

- If that the case, let say I have had a couple of mature discus (2+ years old, and 6+ inches in size), whom have never laid eggs, can I safely assume they are male then?

Thank a big bunch.

SteakMan (who only eats steak)

walan20
07-05-2011, 04:18 PM
cool

kaceyo
07-05-2011, 08:38 PM
With discus, it is not safe to assume anything, LOL!!! Some females will lay without a male and some won't. Some will never lay eggs even with a male.
Good luck and hope to hear back on your successful spawns.

steakman
07-11-2011, 06:57 PM
Update ...

The female laid eggs on Jul the 4th. They then ate them 2 days later again. I left them alone because I expected it was going to happen.

Yesterday after I left to run some errant, no more than an hour, I came back home to find a huge amount of eggs on the intake tube of my Eheim filter. I did not witness anybody did anything.

They are taking turn to guard and fan the eggs now, almost 30 hours after.

The question is how long before all the eggs were gone again!

Should I try to put them back in the breeding tank?

How do I pull the eggs out and treat with meth blue and an air stone? Is this some kind of Frankenstein experiment? If the eggs do turn into wigglers, will they surely die thereafter without parent's care?

Would I be considered a murderer???

Thanks,

Man who does not eat fish.

Picture taken 5 minutes ago. This batch of eggs is the biggest so far, maybe a couple hundred.



http://i52.tinypic.com/20u78ts.jpg