Ok folks what are ya'll thought s o this......

[John_Nicholson]

Sometimes I forget that every place is not like Texas so I need a reminder from time to time. One of the topics that falls into this category is the death penalty. Here is what happened recently if you missed it.....A fellow that was born in Mexico but came to Texas illegally with his family at age 2 committed a crime. What did he do? He raped a 16 year old girl and then beat her to death with a piece of asphalt. Now in the great state of Texas we gave him a trial and then sentenced him to death....so fast forward 17 years. He is about to be put to death and lots of people get upset about it. They are not claiming that he did the crime. Everyone acknowledges that he did. The complaint is that he was not ask if he was a citizen of the US. He could have asked for help from the Mexican government since he was not a US citizen. Now I find it odd that so many liberals are fighting the new laws in Arizona...you know the one...If the police suspect that you are not a US citizen then they would be required to ask you.......In our case in Texas the liberals are upset because we did not ask if he was citizen....LOL. Anyway president obama called the Governor of Texas Rick Perry to ask that the execution be stopped....Well I am proud to say that the execution went off without a hitch.....

The white house is upset that we did not ask about his citizenship and that he was put to death. They don't seem to be the least bit upset that a 16 year old girl was raped and murdered....

Well lets all have a nice round of applause for Jimmy Carter.....he is no longer the worse President in the history of the US.

-john

[terps]

My famous haiku.....

Obama has failed
The worst President ever
Jimmy Carter smiles.

[Darrell Ward]

This case had nothing to do with politics John. Executing a foreign citizen without counsel from the prisoner's home country violates Federal law. By Texas ignoring Federal law, and doing whatever the hell they want, the concern is American citizens held prisoner in foreign countries won't be granted their basic rights to counsel either because of this.

[Cambik]

I am pretty sure the authorities knew he was not a US Citizen. Thus they offered him support and he probably rused thinking he would be deported. I am sure this all happened before the trial a long..long..long time ago. I have no proof of this (My Opinion) but I do live in the GREAT state of TEXAS and am proud to be native Texan.

[yim11]

This case had nothing to do with politics John. Executing a foreign citizen without counsel from the prisoner's home country violates Federal law. By Texas ignoring Federal law, and doing whatever the hell they want, the concern is American citizens held prisoner in foreign countries won't be granted their basic rights to counsel either because of this.

Well, not exactly...that law you refer to isn't an actual law yet:

"In its majority opinion, the Supreme Court wrote that it was not obligated to act on "hypothetical legislation."

"The Obama administration had sought a temporary stay until January 2012 to allow Congress to weigh legislation that could clarify the rights of foreigners to consular access.

Without new guidance from Congress, the state of Texas is not obliged to honor the treaty after the Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that states don't have to act absent federal law."

Also it might be good to clarify that he had always had the right to counsel, just wasn't informed of it.

[jcardona1]

Figures. Liberals always trying to protect criminals and terrorists. I'm glad that scumbag was put down.

[John_Nicholson]

Thanks Jim. I went to lunch and know this is a little late, but it ain't a law.....And Darrel I for one am sick and tired of the US bowing down to what other countries think. If Mexico feels that it cannot live with this then they can call all of their citizens home and return all of the US aid we send them every year......

-john

[Darrell Ward]

It would not have been a big deal, and would not have been national headlines if the governor of Texas had just made sure everything was to the letter of the law before his sentence was carried out. What's wrong with that? How does this make Obama a bad president? I don't agree with a lot of Obama's views either, but come on! The guy would still have been executed. That's not the governor's style however, he has presidential aspirations, and just had to have the headlines that he defied the "Washington Establishment". All this political crap is nauseating.

[Discus-n00b]

I agree with you John, on all points. Glad it went through. IMO if you go to another country illegally you should not be entitled to rights or federal law offered to those that go legally or are citizens. If you are an illegal then you are already a criminal.

[John_Nicholson]

"All this political crap is nauseating" Well at least we can agree on that...

And Matt thanks.

-john

[Darrell Ward]

"All this political crap is nauseating" Well at least we can agree on that...

And Matt thanks.

-john

LOL!

[Skip]

um.. guess they should DIS bar his first attorney..
since that MAY HAVE BEEN something HE SHOULD have known to Bring up when he was first appointed or hired..
or maybe could have been Brought up during the 17 years after..

unless he DID NOT know he was illegal.. hmmmm... ""very interesting point.. skip"" "why thank you skip"..

however, john it did not go off with a hitch.. it went off with a switch... !

ps.. my grand father and grand mother were born in Mexico.. i saw no problem with how this went down nor do i feel any illegal *FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY, NOT JUST MEXICO* here should be given amnesty.. esp those CANADIANS that Take all our Ice Hockey Jobs!!!!!!

my future ex wife is from South America.. and we know there are LAWS that we must follow for her to come here into this country if she is to stay and live here..

[DiscusMental]

You should live in England Criminals are treated better than the victims Bloody Human Rights act

[KEWX]

Isn’t the Texas Governor the one that wants to secede from the union?

[Skip]

Isn’t the Texas Governor the one that wants to secede from the union?

i believe he said something like that.. but its a TEXAS thing we can get a little fired up with our TEXAN PRIDE! :)

[Darrell Ward]

Isn’t the Texas Governor the one that wants to secede from the union?

Yeah. He'll say anything for national media attention. He says stuff like that, but if you started taking away old people SS checks in TX, people would be calling for the Governor's head!

[Skip]

well.. SS is going to stop in the near future... there is no way it will continue.. you can't pay more then you bring in..

[John_Nicholson]

"Isn’t the Texas Governor the one that wants to secede from the union?" that would actually be about 30% of the state...

-john

[Cambik]

The Federal Government already treats us like red headed step children anyway. Might as well go BACK to being our own Country. I personally think we would probably be better off. But that is a personal opinion.

[Darrell Ward]

I'm all for it. If TX wants to strike out own their own, I say go for it. It would interesting to see how the state would do with their own currency without the backing of billions of dollars pouring into the state from the Federal Government.

[KEWX]

i believe he said something like that.. but its a TEXAS thing we can get a little fired up with our TEXAN PRIDE! :)

But if he has national aspiration, he can forget it because of that statement!

[Skip]

Obama said he was going to put a boot to the throats of bp... Did he mean that lol... They all say silly things

[brewmaster15]

Politics and stereotypes....bad combo.

-AL

[John_Nicholson]

Politics and stereotypes....bad combo.

-AL

Al is that all you got? I was hoping for a more spirited discussion.

-john

[scottthomas]

Texas gov made the right decision in my IMO. I doubt Mexico will start executing US citizens due to this. A little far fetched.


I for one am sick and tired of the US bowing down to what other countries think.
+1

It would interesting to see how the state would do with their own currency without the backing of billions of dollars pouring into the state from the Federal Government.
Yes, especially since Texas seems to be doing a much better job with economic growth than the fed gov. :)

[Skip]

Austin has about 6% unemployment..
Ps. If we were are own country we"d be 7th largest in world! Yee-haw! lol

[Darrell Ward]

well.. SS is going to stop in the near future... there is no way it will continue.. you can't pay more then you bring in..

Years down the road, not "the near future" if you look up the facts. Near future doom is political propaganda. After next years election weeds out a lot of the current crop in Congress unwilling to do anything that might be seen as constructive, I expect progress to be made on all fronts of the economy. I really don't think that the majority of the American people are willing to allow one party to cut the entire government into bankruptcy, and tear down the most powerful country in the world for mere political gain.

[gravjack]

It appears to me that Texas got it right. Two suggestions for those that will now fret that they won't get help from our country if they get in trouble outside its borders. #1 - don't break their laws. #2 - if you don't know their laws or are afraid, don't go.

As for "billions" of "federal dollars" pouring into Texas, it might be interesting to know how many of those came from Texas originally. Might not be so tragic for Texas to keep its own wealth, at least for Texas.

John

[Darrell Ward]

It would be interesting. The removal of all 15 US military bases in TX alone would put a huge dent in the state economy. Overall, I don't think it would be as rosy as some people would like to think.

[Skip]

Darrell but thats the beauty... We only state that has that option! How cool is that!

[scottthomas]

I bet Texas would still allow US military bases there. Especially if that is why Texas has a better economy than most States? :)

[yim11]

The secret is...whenever we have poor leadership in Texas we can't vote out we send them up to be prez. When Perry announces his candidacy it will be the 2nd time the country has fallen for this. LOL

[Silver]

If Mexico feels that it cannot live with this then they can call all of their citizens home and return all of the US aid we send them every year......

-john

I thought your original frustration was that the the United States Federal Government was trying to step in and change the decision of the State of Texas. Now you're bringing in Mexico. And this one disturbed individual does not represent Mexico as a whole.


Politics and stereotypes....bad combo.

-AL

+1. All who belong to Simply create a community of fish lovers, why don't we keep it that way ;)

[John_Nicholson]

"I thought your original frustration was that the the United States Federal Government was trying to step in and change the decision of the State of Texas. Now you're bringing in Mexico. And this one disturbed individual does not represent Mexico as a whole. "

This was in in direct response to one of Darrel's comments. I can also cut and paste to try and take something out of context but I see no need in that.

-john

[alpine]

"All this political crap is nauseating" Well at least we can agree on that...

Agree on that ..

Texas has a record on the execution dpt :
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/number-executions-state-and-region-1976

Roberto.

[John_Nicholson]

The secret is...whenever we have poor leadership in Texas we can't vote out we send them up to be prez. When Perry announces his candidacy it will be the 2nd time the country has fallen for this. LOL

Jim and I disagree on this one. I don't think Bush was a bad bad president. Perry is not my favorite. He is just what we have at the moment.

-john

[yim11]

I like to compare it to the corporate culture and politics - in most large corps you have some incompetent leadership, bad decisions, and other political bs, same as our nat'l political system. In both cases I'll rarely like or agree with most of the leadership.

That being said, I can put up with both because I like my paycheck, and I like living in the best country in the world. The alternatives to either are much worse than whatever leadership and decisions we deal with.

[Darrell Ward]

The secret is...whenever we have poor leadership in Texas we can't vote out we send them up to be prez. When Perry announces his candidacy it will be the 2nd time the country has fallen for this. LOL

The only way Perry will ever be president, is in his own dreams.

[Skip]

how bout them cowboys!

[Darrell Ward]

Actually, I've been a Cowboys fan since about 1970. LOL!

[roclement]

Did I get this right? The guy raped and killed a child, was convicted of it and sentenced to death, both the Mexican and USA goverments had 17 YEARS to contest the penalty and only when he is executed this becomes an issue? Sounds like political propaganda to me...or am I missing something?

Rodrigo

[Skip]

Did I get this right? The guy raped and killed a child, was convicted of it and sentenced to death, both the Mexican and USA goverments had 17 YEARS to contest the penalty and only when he is executed this becomes an issue? Sounds like political propaganda to me...or am I missing something?

Rodrigo

thats is correct.. i think Perry was quoted..

"Lack of Preparation on your part, does not constitute and Emergency on my part"
then he SHOT A COYOTE while he was JOGGING!!

true story.. you can't make this stuff up!!

[roclement]

I think I should move to Texas...

Rodrigo

[Skip]

I think I should move to Texas...

Rodrigo

bring your fish :)

[Darrell Ward]

Did I get this right? The guy raped and killed a child, was convicted of it and sentenced to death, both the Mexican and USA goverments had 17 YEARS to contest the penalty and only when he is executed this becomes an issue? Sounds like political propaganda to me...or am I missing something?

Rodrigo

If I understood this right from the news, it's not that anyone was questioning his sentence, it's the fact that during all these years he was never given the opportunity to receive legal representation from his home country. That is supposed to be a basic right of anyone accused of a crime in this country, and many others. The concern is other countries may start refusing Americans held in other countries the same right. Yes, it was made a political issue.

[ericatdallas]

I do think it is slightly ironic that in Texas 'we' (i put this in quote b/c I don't live in Texas, but I'm still a Texas resident, and I still identify with Texans) are supposedly to ask if a person is a foreign national but in Arizona, 'they' are being criticized for checking citizen status (I verified this with Google, but not exhaustively, to be true). Funny world we live in...

If you're an attorney for the Arizona state government, you should request a copy of the federal request (or have a witness) sent to the Federal courts deciding the legality of Arizona's law. You can't have it both ways... either the police are supposed to ask or they're not. Just let us know so we can move on with our lives.

As for everything else, no comment, but I support methods which permanently prevent criminals from committing future crimes.

[Skip]

Darrell.. it was at the time he was arrested.. not the entire 17 yrs..

if i go to Thailand.. and get caught smuggling heroin.. i don't think my consulate will do anything for me.. i am F'd!!!

i watch LOCKED UP ABROAD ALL the time.. LOL>>

what ever.. he got what he deserved!!! thank GOD!! he was in not in Florida!!!!!!!!!! as long as we keep giving other countries money.. they ain't doing squat!!

[scottthomas]

he was never given the opportunity to receive legal representation from his home country

He really wanted legal representation from his "home country" that he didnt probably even remember being born in and was then denied by Texas? I doubt that very much. He probably never even considered it as strategy or "basic right" till lawyers at a late stage tried to use it to block the death penalty. What was mexico going to do? demand he be deported or released? I dont see how sticking to some obscure irrelevant technicality in this case makes any sense. Good riddance of a parasite on society.

[LizStreithorst]

Don't get me started, Mr. Nicholson. I am so itchin' for a fight right now.

Although we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, we will always be good friends because both of us are honest.

I believe that the man was deprived of his rights. If he'd been informed of his rights I doubt that the outcome would have been different. He was a very bad man.

We violated international law. The same will be done to us Like it or not, Texas is not an independent country. Y'all made a big mistake in international edicate.

[roclement]

If I understood this right from the news, it's not that anyone was questioning his sentence, it's the fact that during all these years he was never given the opportunity to receive legal representation from his home country. That is supposed to be a basic right of anyone accused of a crime in this country, and many others. The concern is other countries may start refusing Americans held in other countries the same right. Yes, it was made a political issue.

Did he ask for that? Where was his lawyer in all this? I am guessing this was big news when this happened and I am sure his legality came to discussion..time to google...I see your point Darrell but I doubt this didn't come up in 17 years or during the investigation.

Rodrigo

[Darrell Ward]

Yes, He no doubt got what he deserved, and would have anyway, but the point is it should be done by acceptable practice to the letter of every law. That way there are no questions, no problems. When radical politicians start deliberately defying Federal Courts to get headlines, where does it stop? Such actions can only lead to future chaos in our society, something the country certainly does not need.

[Darrell Ward]

Did he ask for that? Where was his lawyer in all this? I am guessing this was big news when this happened and I am sure his legality came to discussion..time to google...I see your point Darrell but I doubt this didn't come up in 17 years or during the investigation.

Rodrigo

I don't know all the facts, I only caught it on the news. Apparently, the federal court had only asked the state to hold off the execution, not cancel it. The governor ordered it anyway.

[scottthomas]

Sorry, I still dont believe he was deinied his rights in any way. He lived as a defacto US citizen his entire life and was treated as one in the courts. If he was denied his rights in any way he would have been executed years ago. Why did it take so long? Because the court system is so slow to execute due to rights of the accused to appeal over and over. There is question of whether the prisoner even had rights to consult with mexico consulate


The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, a treaty that includes 170 countries, says a foreigner who is arrested must be allowed access to her home country's consulate. The International Court of Justice ruled in 2004 that U.S. states' sentencing of 54 Mexican citizens to death without allowing them to contact the Mexican Consulate was a violation of the treaty. Then-president George W. Bush ordered Texas to review its policies, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that neither Texas nor any U.S. state could be held to an international treaty unless Congress passed a law binding them to it.

[yim11]

I think we need to clarify a few facts here -

The issue centers around if he was INFORMED he had right to counsel from his country, he always had the right to it, just not informed. There is pending law to inform foreigners of the right to home country counsel.

The White House (Obama) and foreign countries asked to stay the execution, but the Supreme Court denied the request in a 5-4 decision just over an hour before he was set to die.

This article is a good summary of the basic facts:
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-plans-controversial-execution-mexican-182530127.html

I think we all agree no matter what the outcome wouldn't have changed.

[ericatdallas]

Leal -- who is brain damaged -- had maintained his innocence and his defense team has argued that he was convicted with flawed evidence.


In his last statement, Leal said he was "sorry for everything that I have done" and asked the victim's family to "forgive me."

"I take the full blame for this," prison officials quoted Leal as saying. "Let this be final and be done."

...interesting...

[yim11]

...interesting...

Indeed! Yet that's not the argument they chose to take to the Supreme Court<?>

[decula]

Thanks for a nice discussion, folks. I have to agree with the folks concerned with the rights of individuals. So lets see some correction
from this gentlemans home country. One execution, everyone starts getting excited - get excited about what happens to your fellow
Americans being murdered in Mexico these days:

American Immigration Agent Killed by Gunmen in Mexico - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/world/americas/16mexico.html

5 Americans killed in Mexico in past week
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39998294/ns/world_news-americas/t/americans-killed-mexico-past-week/

America's Third War: Two Americans Killed at Mexico Border
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/05/americas-war-americans-killed-mexico-border-crossing/

American missionary fatally shot by Mexico gunmen
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/pharr-46579-shot-shows.html

Google it - it's only a couple from many pages. These folks didn't break any laws, didn't rape or murder - where is their justice? Thank God we are
Americans that can be overly concerned about the rights of the guilty.

John, the 15 year old daughter of a gentleman I worked with was raped by an illegal. There is nothing that can "undo" what was done, she'll carry
that for life. If we can't apply the law that all the rest of us live by, do we just let these criminals go free?

just my humble $0.02

[cjr8420]

Thanks for a nice discussion, folks. I have to agree with the folks concerned with the rights of individuals. So lets see some correction
from this gentlemans home country. One execution, everyone starts getting excited - get excited about what happens to your fellow
Americans being murdered in Mexico these days:

American Immigration Agent Killed by Gunmen in Mexico - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/world/americas/16mexico.html

5 Americans killed in Mexico in past week
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39998294/ns/world_news-americas/t/americans-killed-mexico-past-week/

America's Third War: Two Americans Killed at Mexico Border
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/05/americas-war-americans-killed-mexico-border-crossing/

American missionary fatally shot by Mexico gunmen
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/pharr-46579-shot-shows.html

Google it - it's only a couple from many pages. These folks didn't break any laws, didn't rape or murder - where is their justice? Thank God we are
Americans that can be overly concerned about the rights of the guilty.

John, the 15 year old daughter of a gentleman I worked with was raped by an illegal. There is nothing that can "undo" what was done, she'll carry
that for life. If we can't apply the law that all the rest of us live by, do we just let these criminals go free?

just my humble $0.02

+1 +2 +3
im sure he used every right he didnt deserve to last 17 yrs.here he was executed if we go there we just get murdered.maybe we should try it.would anybody complain if headlines read illegal murdered after raping and murdering a 16 yr old girl,police have no witnesses. im sry tax payers had to carry that dead weight for 17 yrs

[brewmaster15]

Ok folks what are ya'll thought s o this...... Part 2.....

So I was reading the net today and came upon this article...and thought I'd throw it out there for your thoughts Folks...


Vicious Assault Shakes Texas Town
By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.
Published: March 8, 2011



CLEVELAND, Tex. — The police investigation began shortly after Thanksgiving, when an elementary school student alerted a teacher to a lurid cellphone video that included one of her classmates.
Enlarge This Image
Michael Stravato for The New York Times

The exterior of an abandoned trailer where an 11-year-old girl was assaulted. Eighteen suspects were held.
Enlarge This Image
Michael Stravato for The New York Times

The interior of the trailer.

The video led the police to an abandoned trailer, more evidence and, eventually, to a roundup over the last month of 18 young men and teenage boys on charges of participating in the gang rape of an 11-year-old girl in the abandoned trailer home, the authorities said.

Five suspects are students at Cleveland High School, including two members of the basketball team. Another is the 21-year-old son of a school board member. A few of the others have criminal records, from selling drugs to robbery and, in one case, manslaughter. The suspects range in age from middle schoolers to a 27-year-old.

The case has rocked this East Texas community to its core and left many residents in the working-class neighborhood where the attack took place with unanswered questions. Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?

“It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”

The attack’s details remained unclear. The police have declined to discuss their inquiry because it is continuing. The whereabouts of the victim and her mother were not made public.

The allegations first came to light just after Thanksgiving, when a child who knows the victim told a teacher she had seen a videotape of the attack on a cellphone, said Stacey Gatlin, a spokeswoman for the Cleveland Independent School District.

The school district’s security department interviewed the girl, 11, who is a student at Cleveland Middle School, and her mother. The security department determined that a rape had taken place, but not on school property, and then handed the matter over to the police, Ms. Gatlin said.

On Dec. 9, the police obtained a search warrant to go through a house on Travis Street and a nearby trailer that had been abandoned for at least two years. An affidavit filed to support the search warrant said the girl had been forced to have sex with several men in both places on Nov. 28 and cited pictures and videos as proof, according to The Houston Chronicle.

The affidavit said the assault started after a 19-year-old boy invited the victim to ride around in his car. He took her to a house on Travis Street where one of the other men charged, also 19, lived. There the girl was ordered to disrobe and was sexually assaulted by several boys in the bedroom and bathroom. She was told she would be beaten if she did not comply, the affidavit said.

A relative of one of the suspects arrived, and the group fled through a back window. They then went to the abandoned mobile home, where the assaults continued. Some of those present recorded the sexual acts on their telephones, and these later were shown among students.

Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said.

“Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?” said Ms. Harrison, one of a handful of neighbors who would speak on the record. “How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?”

Cleveland, a town of 9,000, lies about 50 miles northeast of Houston in the pine country, near the picturesque Sam Houston National Forest. The town’s economy has always rested on timber, cattle, farming and oil. But there are pockets of poverty, and in the neighborhood where the assault occurred, well-kept homes sit beside boarded-up houses and others with deteriorating facades.

The abandoned trailer where the assault took place is full of trash and has a blue tarp hanging from the front. Inside there is a filthy sofa, a disconnected stove in the middle of the living room, a broken stereo and some forlorn Christmas decorations. A copy of the search warrant was on a counter in the kitchen next to some abandoned family pictures.

The arrests have left many wondering who will be taken into custody next. Churches have held prayer services for the victim. The students who were arrested have not returned to school, and it is unclear if they ever will. Ms. Gatlin said the girl had been transferred to another district. “It’s devastating, and it’s really tearing our community apart,” she said. “I really wish that this could end in a better light.”

Mauricio Guerrero contributed reporting from Houston.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/09assault.html?_r=2&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

same story here...different spin.
http://www.care2.com/causes/11-year-old-girl-gang-raped-by-18-men-in-texas.html


11-Year-Old Girl Gang-Raped By 18 Men In Texas

In a story that is horrifying both because of its content and the media coverage that has followed in its aftermath, 18 young men and teenage boys, some as young as middle-schoolers, were arrested in the town of Cleveland, Texas, for gang-raping an 11-year-old girl last November. The police learned about the assault last November, when one of the girl’s elementary-school classmates told her teacher that she had seen a cellphone video of the attack.

According to an affidavit, which cited photos and videos as proof, the girl was offered a ride by a 19-year-old man, who took her to his house, forced her to disrobe, and along with several other men, sexually assaulted her. She was then taken to an abandoned mobile home, where the rest of the assaults occurred. Several of the attackers documented the event on their phones.

All of this is now just hitting the news. New York Times reporter James McKinley Jr.’s approach, which focuses on the way that the East Texas community has reacted to the assaults, is problematic, insensitive, and victim-blaming. It paints the attackers as well-meaning “boys” who were “drawn into” the horrible violence, and describes the victim as dressing “older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s.” Although the alleged attackers are only now being arrested, and a trial has yet to commence, the coverage seems to indict the victim as if not more severely than the men who repeatedly raped an 11-year-old girl, while taking videos on their cellphones.

As Shakespeare’s Sister points out, by the fourth paragraph of the NYT article we know a significant number of details about the attackers; the victim has yet to figure in the story aside from her gender and age. McKinley quotes a woman who is dismayed at the idea that “these boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.” Of course, the trauma of being raped by almost twenty men is made to seem negligable by comparison.

To make matters worse, the description of the victim plainly implies that she was a deviant figure. She had been “visiting friends” in the neighborhood near the abandoned trailer in the months before her assault, and sometimes hung out with teenage boys near a playground. According to the woman quoted above, this means that the assault was the girl’s mother’s fault.

“Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?” she said. “How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?”

McKinley then launches into a description of the town’s economic depression, and describes the trailer’s bleak interior. Instead of the story of a violent crime perpetrated by adults and minors against another minor, this angle encourages us to feel sorry for the small town that has been “shaken to its core.” The attackers are equally victims, and the victim is for the most part absent. The word “rape” is only used a few times in the article, the fact that the girl could not have consented is mentioned nowhere, and the tragedy is not that an 11-year-old girl was subjected to unspeakable violence, but that the “town” (represented through the one person quoted) doesn’t know how to react.

The Houston Chronicle‘s coverage is equally bad. Describing the victim’s Facebook postings, Cindy Horswell writes,

“Sometimes she comes across like a little girl, such as when she talks of her special talent for making “weird sound effects” and “running in circles” to overcome nervousness.

But she also makes flamboyant statements about drinking, smoking and sex. Yet her vulnerability pokes through the tough veneer as she tells of “being hurt many times,” where she “settled for less” and “let people take advantage” and “walk all over” her. She vows to learn from her mistakes.”

As Margaret Hartmann writes on Jezebel, “Publishing information like that would be wrong if the victim was an adult, and it’s totally reprehensible in the case of a victim who “comes across like a little girl,” because that’s exactly what she is.” The idea that this girl needs to “learn from her mistakes” is absurdly offensive. It baldly implies that because of her actions, she was raped.

There’s one acceptable response to all of this coverage, and it’s outrage. As Liz Henry passionately writes, “The media is reporting on how she dresses, what the town thinks of how she dresses, where she hangs out, whether she cusses on her Facebook page… ALL COMPLETELY NOT RELEVANT to her being kidnapped and brutally gang raped.”

This is a story about a child who was kidnapped by an adult and forced to have sexual intercourse with a large number of men. The act was recorded and somehow made its way back to her elementary-school classmates. These are the events that McKinley, Horswell and other reporters should be writing about – not about the town’s economic decline, and certainly not what the neighbors think about the victim or her mother.


Personally this story angers me beyound belief, probably more so as my daughter is 10. and this poor girl was 11.

-al

[ericatdallas]

Okay, a better question than "where was her mother?" is how did eighteen sets of parents raise 18 child rapists.

Yup, I read the first article and I was thinking the same thing as the second article. It DOES NOT MATTER what she did, what she wrote, or how she dresses. She's ELEVEN. Those 18 men/boys should have known better, absolutely.

I agree with the second article, all of that other stuff is irrelevant for this article. Should the kid be smoking and drinking and dress above her age? Irrelevant. Should those 18 boys be raping young girls in trailers? Answer... NO!

[ericatdallas]

Thanks for a nice discussion, folks. I have to agree with the folks concerned with the rights of individuals. So lets see some correction
from this gentlemans home country. One execution, everyone starts getting excited - get excited about what happens to your fellow
Americans being murdered in Mexico these days:

American Immigration Agent Killed by Gunmen in Mexico - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/world/americas/16mexico.html

5 Americans killed in Mexico in past week
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39998294/ns/world_news-americas/t/americans-killed-mexico-past-week/

America's Third War: Two Americans Killed at Mexico Border
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/05/americas-war-americans-killed-mexico-border-crossing/

American missionary fatally shot by Mexico gunmen
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/pharr-46579-shot-shows.html

Google it - it's only a couple from many pages. These folks didn't break any laws, didn't rape or murder - where is their justice? Thank God we are
Americans that can be overly concerned about the rights of the guilty.

John, the 15 year old daughter of a gentleman I worked with was raped by an illegal. There is nothing that can "undo" what was done, she'll carry
that for life. If we can't apply the law that all the rest of us live by, do we just let these criminals go free?



Okay, I'm not defending the man's appeal, death penalty, but the above are not fair comparisons. Those Americans died from criminals not by the recognized government. The above would only apply if a US gang member kills an immigrant and then Mexico sends official protest to the US federal government for not properly protecting it's citizens.

Now if you brought scenarios of Americans being denied their basic rights, then you have a more reasonable comparison and I would be surprised if those are difficult to find.


just my humble $0.02

Justifying the actions of our government by citing the actions of unscrupulous drug lords is unfair to the Mexican government, people AND the US government and citizens.

[cjr8420]

Okay, a better question than "where was her mother?" is how did eighteen sets of parents raise 18 child rapists.

Yup, I read the first article and I was thinking the same thing as the second article. It DOES NOT MATTER what she did, what she wrote, or how she dresses. She's ELEVEN. Those 18 men/boys should have known better, absolutely.

I agree with the second article, all of that other stuff is irrelevant for this article. Should the kid be smoking and drinking and dress above her age? Irrelevant. Should those 18 boys be raping young girls in trailers? Answer... NO!

+1
as far as media goes u gotta learn to read between the lines.theres always an agenda for someone or somthing.

[cjr8420]

Okay, I'm not defending the man's appeal, death penalty, but the above are not fair comparisons. Those Americans died from criminals not by the recognized government. The above would only apply if a US gang member kills an immigrant and then Mexico sends official protest to the US federal government for not properly protecting it's citizens.

Now if you brought scenarios of Americans being denied their basic rights, then you have a more reasonable comparison and I would be surprised if those are difficult to find.



Justifying the actions of our government by citing the actions of unscrupulous drug lords is unfair to the Mexican government, people AND the US government and citizens.

anyone who rapes and murders anyone reguardless of where they are from should be executed and does anybody think this guy has any what so ever proof he is a mexican citizen so with out that there is no question to ask.as far as the mexican government they are bought and paid for or killed by the druglords so they are as bad as it gets.now for being denied rights the police in mexico just beat and rob you then let you go so no records just hear say like the fact this guy is from mexico

[ericatdallas]

as far as the mexican government they are bought and paid for or killed by the druglords so they are as bad as it gets.

The US isn't without corruption. I don't think Mexico has a national policy of accepting bribes. It's certainly a problem they have to deal with, but I doubt all the people below were who died were corrupt. A quick Google will show that's a small snapshot of their war on drugs. Also remember, the drug lords are in business because there exists a market north (us) to buy it.

7 Mexican Police Killed in Ciudad Juarez
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/24/world/main6428197.shtml

2 top Mexican police officials killed in 2 days
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-09/world/mexico.violence_1_drug-cartels-police-force-mexican-state?_s=PM:WORLD

Female Police Chief Murdered in Mexico
http://abcnews.go.com/International/mexico-police-chief-murdered/story?id=12294819

Mexico's Police Chief Is Killed In Brazen Attack by Gunmen
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/08/AR2008050803242.html

Five Police Slain in Northern Mexico
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/06/five-police-slain-in-northern-mexico.html

[cjr8420]

exactly the good ones get killed so the ones they dont kill are on their payroll.and our government is even worse and not much different in ways.but knowing that little girl and her family got justice makes me feel good to be an american

[ericatdallas]

exactly the good ones get killed so the ones they dont kill are on their payroll.and our government is even worse and not much different in ways.but knowing that little girl and her family got justice makes me feel good to be an american

Yeah, I agree, justice was served. However, decula's original post with links implied that what we did was justified by what drug lords do to US citizens. Those are unrelated. By justifying our actions b/c of those links is a disservice to the US/Texas justice system. It's basically comparing our justice system with criminals. The actions of the Texas judicial system stand on their own and shouldn't be justified by arbitrary killings of US citizens.

Do US citizens die in Mexico? Yes, but irrelevant.
Are some Mexican officials corrupt? Yes, but irrelevant.
Is crime more rampant there than here? Yes, but irrelevant.
Was this man punished for his crime? Yes, relevant.
Did this man get denied basic/international rights? That's what's in the air and being discussed.
Do we care if he was or not? That's also what's being discussed.

[DonMD]

Hi, John,

I have lived and worked many many years abroad. If arrested, rightly or wrongly, I'd like the right to contact my consul. I think we set a bad precedent by not following this international law. Just because we subscribe to international laws doesn't mean that we are ruled by any, but we live in the world, and our citizens go out in the world. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we don't allow the accused in Texas access to their consul, then why would any other foreign country feel the need to allow any American arrested there access to his/her consul?

I don't mean to minimize the horrendous crime committed by this Mexican, he did confess, and he begged forgiveness at the end. But fair is fair. Just my opinion. -Don

[Darrell Ward]

I guess it all comes down to if you believe in abiding by all letters of the law, or only when it suits you. Most people say they always want to do things to the letter of the law, then in emotional cases say, "go ahead and kill him". "What are you doing, protecting this scum Bag!" I guess I'm sensitive to "lynch mob mentality". I grew up in the South, and am old enough to remember what this kind of thinking did to certain citizens who really didn't deserve it back in the early sixties.

[John_Nicholson]

We did not deny him access...prior to thr trial he never asked for access.

-john


Hi, John,

I have lived and worked many many years abroad. If arrested, rightly or wrongly, I'd like the right to contact my consul. I think we set a bad precedent by not following this international law. Just because we subscribe to international laws doesn't mean that we are ruled by any, but we live in the world, and our citizens go out in the world. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we don't allow the accused in Texas access to their consul, then why would any other foreign country feel the need to allow any American arrested there access to his/her consul?

I don't mean to minimize the horrendous crime committed by this Mexican, he did confess, and he begged forgiveness at the end. But fair is fair. Just my opinion. -Don

[Skip]

they should seek their consulate when here to gain legal residence..

[mmorris]

We did not deny him access...prior to thr trial he never asked for access.

-john

Do you know that for a fact?

[wadewc]

Politics and relegion is never very good topics to discus in open forum. There is alot of thoughts to both sides of this subject. I to Darrell remember what it was like in the early years. There was a lot of people that was executed/killed for being wrongly accused for different reasons. I think this was realized and know we have created a society that in some cases the accused seems to have more rights than the victim. I had a very good friend murdured by a juvenial. He only served two years in juvi and was let out early for good behavior. I am no lawyer but I do remember seeing where drug dealers server more time than a person who is convicted of a violent crime. I am not trying to saying other than there seems to be no even ballance. Some times I wish I grew up in the old western days, if found guilty, hang them. This might seem rash if so to some I am sorry for goodness sake I was raised to forgive thy neighbor but dang we are dealing with so much wrong doings. I have seen so much that alot it does not make sence, when I was young, people were killed because they did not look like others. Today the gang bangers get the younger ones to do somethings because they will not spend so much time. I love it when it is said the parent should be responsible. Well let me tell you something on that from experience here in Oklahoma, when I had my fun, if your child is 17 you as a parent have not rights. I was put in jail for holding, not hitting, my step son down because he was trying to punch me. My dad would have knocked the s*** out of you. This is one of many I have delt with as well as others I know. My conclusion is ,please remember the victim, brutily killed and we ask him if he was asked for access...

Just my two cents,
Wade

[Skip]

All I know.. He smashed a 16 year olds head in with a 40lb piece of asphalt after raping her and leaving a wood stick with a screw at end inside her private parts... I dont give F, if he spoke to nato, opec or irs..

U dont mess with Texas.. I would even be more worked up if she was my daughter of someone I knew, or god forbid my family or urs!

[cjr8420]

i wonder if there is any proof passport/mexican birthcertificate that he is from mexico without that he is not mexican either.then he has no right to any consulate.which is prob what happen they just decided to leave that out.like in al's two articles media has agenda they want you to believe he didnt get his rights so thats how they right it more drama more money. it wasnt like he was here on vacation he was here for 30+ yrs b4 being executed

[ShinShin]

In the words of Texas born comic Ron White while addressing the death penalty in one of his bits, "If you come to Texas and kill one of us, we will kill you back."

Sounds fair to me.

Mat

[John_Nicholson]

Do you know that for a fact?

Yep, but you won't hear that though the liberal media....LOL

-john

[LizStreithorst]

Yep, but you won't hear that though the liberal media....LOL

-john

Actually I DID hear that on NPR. The full story is that he didn't know that he had that right because was not told. It would be comrable to not reading someone his miranda rights.

[Skip]

so at what point did he tell police he was Illegal!?

[ShinShin]

Not being able to wear the liberal, moderate nor conserative badge because I look at each issue on its own merit and judge it according to how I feel and even how I feel about an issue is subject to change as well, I see nothing wrong with the execution of this man by the state of Texas. I also would not see anything wrong with the father of this girl executing this man, as well as any honest person killing any other rapists, child molesters and drug dealers. The exception here being pot dealers, a weed that ought to be legalized and anyone in prison doing time for pot related offenses should be freed now. No, I don't smoke it. I also feel that gays should have the right to marry (I am heterosexual) for two reasons. The first is that gay couples should have every right as miserable as most heterosexual couples and two, they cannot f...-up family values any more than a lot of conventional families have.

This case though has been judged though thus far by one's feelings about the issue according to man's law. All the liberals do, and have always, had an arrogant attitude, that they are more enlightened than the spiritually endarkened conservatives, mainly because the conservatives tend to be more religious than the "spiritually" advanced liberal camp. The joke is on them as they preach their advanced spiritual enlightenment to the ignorant.

Man's law is man's law, and has nothing to do with right, wrong, fair, justice, injustice. It is simply what man deems to be necessary. In the realm of the Spirit, all is fair and just. Everybody gets exactly what they deserve, whether they or anyone else thinks so or not. Everyone dies exactly when they are supposed to die. So, it matters not if Texas killed the man, the father killed the man, a bus ran him over or lightning struck him. He is dead, and died exactly when he was supposed to die. He was supposed to die that exact second.

The man is dead. He is supposed to have died, so how he died is irrelavent.

[roundfishross]

Actually I DID hear that on NPR. The full story is that he didn't know that he had that right because was not told. It would be comrable to not reading someone his miranda rights.

I have read and personally experienced. police no longer read miranda rights it is not a requirement any more

[roundfishross]

Not being able to wear the liberal, moderate nor conserative badge because I look at each issue on its own merit and judge it according to how I feel and even how I feel about an issue is subject to change as well, I see nothing wrong with the execution of this man by the state of Texas. I also would not see anything wrong with the father of this girl executing this man, as well as any honest person killing any other rapists, child molesters and drug dealers. The exception here being pot dealers, a weed that ought to be legalized and anyone in prison doing time for pot related offenses should be freed now. No, I don't smoke it. I also feel that gays should have the right to marry (I am heterosexual) for two reasons. The first is that gay couples should have every right as miserable as most heterosexual couples and two, they cannot f...-up family values any more than a lot of conventional families have

agree 100%

[LizStreithorst]

I have read and personally experienced. police no longer read miranda rights it is not a requirement any more

It's not? Well, that one slipped by me.

[roundfishross]

It's not? Well, that one slipped by me.

Liz, i'm pretty sure on this one and my attorny also confirmed it. all they have to do now days is haul your a$$ to jail.

heck after the very recent decision made by the supreme court they no longer need a warrant to enter your private residents either!

[ericatdallas]

I have read and personally experienced. police no longer read miranda rights it is not a requirement any more

I'm not sure what you read, but police still have to tell a suspect their rights (it doesn't have to be read in the state we know it) before questioning. The need to tell them their rights is not necessary just because an arrest is made, only if the police questions/interrogates the suspect. The rights can be given in any manner so long as it's clear to the suspect such as "You don't need to tell us anything, you can talk to a lawyer if you want to at any time during questioning." That would be sufficient.

The exact wording that we all know well doesn't need to be said though.

[Skip]

if they do it in the movies.. then is must be true Leo.. !!

so i think you are wrong.. ;) ;) ;) LOL!

jk

[ericatdallas]

btw, anything you say before an arrest/detention is admissible without a Miranda warnings. Otherwise, reporting yourself for a crime (i.e. going to police station and saying, "I killed JR") would be inadmissible in court and that makes no sense.

[roundfishross]

I'm not sure what you read, but police still have to tell a suspect their rights (it doesn't have to be read in the state we know it) before questioning. The need to tell them their rights is not necessary just because an arrest is made, only if the police questions/interrogates the suspect. The rights can be given in any manner so long as it's clear to the suspect such as "You don't need to tell us anything, you can talk to a lawyer if you want to at any time during questioning." That would be sufficient.

The exact wording that we all know well doesn't need to be said though.

well Bud, go and get yourself arrested and see if they read you you're rights, hell ask them about it and see if you get the complementary beat down. they will literally laugh at you!

[ericatdallas]

well Bud, go and get yourself arrested and see if they read you you're rights, hell ask them about it and see if you get the complementary beat down. they will literally laugh at you!

My mistake, I assume "Middle" Georgia meant the state and not the country. In the US, police are capable of taking your rights and giving you beat downs, that doesn't mean it's standard policy. I don't know how they do it in Georgia (the country though), so I won't speak to that.

The suggestion that I should get arrested to prove a well known point is almost as laughable as the suggestion I would get a beat down for invoking my rights.

Again, miranda rights have to be stated in some form under two conditions 1) detention 2) interrogation. Both have to exist for the requirement to exist.

Police can arbitrarily do what they want (and get away with it), but until the supreme court throws it out, it's still a requirement.

[roundfishross]

georgia the state. our wonderfull law enforcement hands out courtesy beatings on a routine basis! It may not be written policy, but we all know, that does not mean it does not happen on a routine basis! Ohio is pretty well known for leanient laws concearning most offences,maybee the cops are just a little more laid back there too as well

[ericatdallas]

Lol that's possible, or Georgia has really crappy law schools and spits out attorneys that can't protect their client's rights ;)

[Skip]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/omnione/popcorn.gif http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t151/204950/popcorn.gif http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/kaytee_13/Icons/Emoticons/smiley_popcorn.gif http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r251/xyzero123/popcorn.gif http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/pokemonruler2/Smileys/Popcorn.gif http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/iluvatarin/thpopcorn.gif

[roundfishross]

Lol that's possible, or Georgia has really crappy law schools and spits out attorneys that can't protect their client's rights ;)

Georgia definatly has some really crappy schools( cant comment on the law schools as I'm not an attorny, or a know it all). however, I am done with this conversation as of now though!.....Leo

on a side note, I would like to meet any attorny that is capable of stopping the police on the side of the road from issuing a courtesy beating before it happens, I dont think any law school in the country has turned out that lawyer yet.

[John_Nicholson]

LOL...hey now this is one of my more successful threads in a while so ya'll two don't get me deleted.....LOL.

-john

[Cevoe]

Not being able to wear the liberal, moderate nor conserative badge because I look at each issue on its own merit and judge it according to how I feel and even how I feel about an issue is subject to change as well, I see nothing wrong with the execution of this man by the state of Texas. I also would not see anything wrong with the father of this girl executing this man, as well as any honest person killing any other rapists, child molesters and drug dealers. The exception here being pot dealers, a weed that ought to be legalized and anyone in prison doing time for pot related offenses should be freed now. No, I don't smoke it. I also feel that gays should have the right to marry (I am heterosexual) for two reasons. The first is that gay couples should have every right as miserable as most heterosexual couples and two, they cannot f...-up family values any more than a lot of conventional families have.

This case though has been judged though thus far by one's feelings about the issue according to man's law. All the liberals do, and have always, had an arrogant attitude, that they are more enlightened than the spiritually endarkened conservatives, mainly because the conservatives tend to be more religious than the "spiritually" advanced liberal camp. The joke is on them as they preach their advanced spiritual enlightenment to the ignorant.

Man's law is man's law, and has nothing to do with right, wrong, fair, justice, injustice. It is simply what man deems to be necessary. In the realm of the Spirit, all is fair and just. Everybody gets exactly what they deserve, whether they or anyone else thinks so or not. Everyone dies exactly when they are supposed to die. So, it matters not if Texas killed the man, the father killed the man, a bus ran him over or lightning struck him. He is dead, and died exactly when he was supposed to die. He was supposed to die that exact second.

The man is dead. He is supposed to have died, so how he died is irrelavent.

I have been following this thread and appreciate the opinions made on both sides but find this quote in particular to be terrific.
Very well said.

[ericatdallas]

on a side note, I would like to meet any attorny that is capable of stopping the police on the side of the road from issuing a courtesy beating before it happens, I dont think any law school in the country has turned out that lawyer yet.

Attorneys don't actively stop police brutality. Let's go back to the original example of Miranda rights. In Miranda v. Arizona, the lawyers through the judicial process forced law enforcement across the country to tell a suspect their rights. Attorneys do it through legal action. So no, the attorney does not use his/her law degree as a physical shield from batons and bullets, but he/she makes people think twice about breaking the law, infringing on people's rights, etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't take a know-it-all to use common knowledge and apply common sense to it either.

Miranda is also near and dear (well, maybe not the latter). I'm trained in making legal federal arrests (sorta, I was told under certain circumstances I'm able to make a legal arrest and how to do it) and I spent a semester years ago in college writing about Miranda v. Arizona as it applied to Gideon v. Wainwright.


LOL...hey now this is one of my more successful threads in a while so ya'll two don't get me deleted.....LOL.

-john

LOL, John, very successful thread with lots of heated opinions. I wonder if one day 10-years from now, if someone will be Googling this on the web (school report?) and wonder, "What the heck is this doing on a fish forum?"

[ericatdallas]

This was posted relatively recently (I think 3 days is pretty good)... It's a blog, but at least he has credentials, it's by a criminal defense attorney in Colorado.
http://www.coloradospringscriminallawyerblog.com/2011/07/they_didnt_read_me_my_miranda_1.html



Miranda needs to be administered when the person being questioned is “In Custody”. Next, get ready for the more difficult question. What circumstances constitute “Custody”? This is often the point when the money you paid your lawyer becomes money well spent.


I like how he points out how important it is to have a good attorney :)

[decula]

LOL...hey now this is one of my more successful threads in a while so ya'll two don't get me deleted.....LOL.

-john


It's OK, my friend. The UN is there for your rights! I'm sure they'll get ya reinstated.

[brewmaster15]

Not being able to wear the liberal, moderate nor conserative badge because I look at each issue on its own merit ...... dido.

[decula]

Justifying the actions of our government by citing the actions of unscrupulous drug lords is unfair to the Mexican government, people AND the US government and citizens.

With the recent releases in the media about Al-Qaeda in Mexico, one can only ponder the effectiveness of the Mexican Government to protect
it's own citizens - as you rightfully pointed out. And I'm not being unfair - one of the expectations of government anywhere is to be protected on
ones own soil.

-dec

[brewmaster15]

Hey speaking of terrorists...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States

I found it interesting...

-al

[ericatdallas]

Hey speaking of terrorists...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States

I found it interesting...

-al

Al, I do think it's interesting, but more so, I find it kind of frightening! :)

I was aware of domestic terrorism, but I didn't know there were that many on the radar... which means there are many more that haven't hit public awareness....

[brewmaster15]

Al, I do think it's interesting, but more so, I find it kind of frightening! :)

I was aware of domestic terrorism, but I didn't know there were that many on the radar... which means there are many more that haven't hit public awareness....

Eric,
Thats what I meant by interesting. :) sometimes we are so busy looking elsewhere that we forget to pull the weeds from our own gardens. I don't know if thats because of laziness or just because its easier to focus on things that are farther from home.....but the facts are terrorism takes on many forms. Read deep into that list and that becomes very apparent.

-al

[mmorris]

Not being able to wear the liberal, moderate nor conserative badge because I look at each issue on its own merit and judge it according to how I feel.

IMO this position makes the assumption that events and ideas are unrelated. The world, then, seems complicated and impossible to comprehend. Therefore, many people don't bother trying to comprehend it. A basic understanding of economic history goes a long way in creating order out of caos. One's position on an issue can be based on more than a 'feeling.'

[mmorris]

Huh...I didn't see the CIA on that list. Oversight? :huh:

[Scribbles]

I'll be in the minority here as I am against capital punishment. In all honesty though would it have made any differance if the man had had representation from his own country? When slimeballs like this guy do the horriffic crimes that they do I frankly don't care too much about their rights. In my opinion they have given up their rights to be part of society.

Chris

[ShinShin]

One's feelings are formed by how one thinks.

[decula]

Al, I do think it's interesting, but more so, I find it kind of frightening! :)
I was aware of domestic terrorism, but I didn't know there were that many on the radar... which means there are many more that haven't hit public awareness....

We are *very* aware of it here in Oklahoma. There is a moment of silence every April 19th. Many innocent men women and *children* were killed.
Perhaps we shouldn't be so lazy and pull these weeds, as Al said. But short of "Minority Report", How do you prevent whacked-out
people from doing capital crimes. The deterrent effect of capital punishment may help - but what else is there? A water change?

[generics]

Thats really funny!

[Cambik]

In all honesty though would it have made any differance if the man had had representation from his own country? When slimeballs like this guy do the horriffic crimes that they do I frankly don't care too much about their rights. In my opinion they have given up their rights to be part of society.


+1

[mmorris]

How do you prevent whacked-out
people from doing capital crimes. The deterrent effect of capital punishment may help - but what else is there? A water change?
Capital punishment does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening. It has to begin with an understanding of the social factors that create this sort of person in the first place. The legal system operates after the fact...little or nothing is done to create a society where everyone feels they have an important place in it.

[John_Nicholson]

Capital punishment does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening. It has to begin with an understanding of the social factors that create this sort of person in the first place. The legal system operates after the fact...little or nothing is done to create a society where everyone feels they have an important place in it.

It is not all about society. Some people are just going to be bad. It is part of the human condition. Upbringing has an affect but tendencies towards this type of behavior are already present in these individuals. Their raising simply brings it out.

-john

[Skip]

Capital punishment does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening. It has to begin with an understanding of the social factors that create this sort of person in the first place. The legal system operates after the fact...little or nothing is done to create a society where everyone feels they have an important place in it.

i disagree.. i don't want to be in prision or lose my freedoms of going down the the 7-eleven.. so due to the DEATH SENTENCE IN TEXAS.. i do not commit crimes..
besides the tattoo i have on my chest that says THUG LIFE is written in Comic sans font.. i don't get much street cred for that :(

[Northwoods Discus]

At least this guy won't commit this crime over and over again.

[gravjack]

[QUOTE=John_Nicholson;782950]It is not all about society. Some people are just going to be bad. It is part of the human condition. Upbringing has an affect but tendencies towards this type of behavior are already present in these individuals. Their raising simply brings it out.

The never ending Nature vs. Nurture argument. Personally, I think it is about 50/50. I can't believe that we as biological beings are not affected by genetic coding, just as are all others, including our fish. I think some may have a genetic tendency toward antisocial behavior. Some will act on it in spite of socialization, others will resist it because of the same socialization. Some aren't so disposed by genetics, so their nurturing is the sole determinant. I know personally of some who came from a good social background, but ended up truly evil. Yet others from dismal backgrounds raise themselves out the the muck and become exemplary citizens.

[scottthomas]

Capital punishment does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening. It has to begin with an understanding of the social factors that create this sort of person in the first place. The legal system operates after the fact...little or nothing is done to create a society where everyone feels they have an important place in it.

Statistics have been used by both sides of the capital punishment debate for decades to prove or disprove its effectiveness on crime rates. Neither side has been able to prove their case. Correlation of statistics does not prove causation for either side. Regardless of whether one believes that capital punishment "does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening" there is still the matter of appropriate punishment and recidivism. Unfortunately "this type of crime" has very high recidivism rates. You could argue that the murderer should remain behind bars forever. Yet what about justice for the victim's family, and the safety of others even in prison? I for one would prefer death to life imprisonment.

Just my humble opinion in this interesting debate.

[DLock3d]

I love this thread. +1 death penalty. I appreciate Don's comment about traveling abroad. But Don, I'm assuming that your traveling abroad is legal. I'm also assuming that you didnt take up permanent residence in any of these countries at the age of two. The man clearly enjoyed the freedoms of our country for the span of his lifetime. Why should he be able to have his cake and eat it too? What I haven't seen anyone mention is that him appealing to his government is really just a loop hole. I mean come on, really? He came here when he was TWO. There are too many loop holes in the system already. We don't have a perfect system and we never will.

[ShinShin]

I thought capital punishment was actually punishment (since the word punishment is used) for a crime commited, not a deterrent for a crime that may be committed.

Mat

[Skip]

I thought capital punishment was actually punishment (since the word punishment is used) for a crime commited, not a deterrent for a crime that may be committed.

Mat

i am NOT going to find out the difference.. thank you! :)

[scottthomas]

I thought capital punishment was actually punishment (since the word punishment is used) for a crime commited, not a deterrent for a crime that may be committed.

Mat

Well, thats what I was trying to say.... you just stated it better:)

[ericatdallas]

I thought consequence can act as a deterrent. I mean, when I was a kid, I would eat all my food otherwise I wouldn't get my dessert. The punishment is no dessert, the reward is dessert.

Not committing crime -> freedom
commit crime -> death or prison

People work out the risk/reward in their head. People who can't or don't are the ones not likely to be deterred.

I can guarantee you, as Warlock said in not so many words, a lot of people don't commit crimes b/c of the potential loss of freedom/life.

If I got the death penalty for speeding, I can guarantee you I would drive 5 miles under the limit just to make sure I avoided death. So it worked as a deterrent.

[ericatdallas]

...actually, I probably would just walk :)

[Skip]

If I got the death penalty for speeding, I can guarantee you I would drive 5 miles under the limit just to make sure I avoided death. So it worked as a deterrent.

i would just walk :)

[ericatdallas]

i would just walk :)

lol we posted it at the same time... :)

[DLock3d]

Jinx! You both owe me a drink at NADA.

[Skip]

mine was listed first!! so i win

[brewmaster15]

Consequences for our actions rule our society......The reason people follow a law is not because its a law.....humans as a group are notoriously free willed beings, telling them they can't do something, makes them more likely to do it...case in point...kids...they'll bend and break every rule they can until the consequences make them respect a boundary. ...The reason people follow a law is not because its a law. its because theres a societal consequence for not following that law....You may chose to not follow it because you feel its wrong, but there will still be consequences for it that an intelligent person considers.

I drive 60 MPH, not because its the law or its been statistically proven to be safer and save gas.....but simply because I can't afford the dang ticket and court date if I do that 70-80 Mph or more that I really want to drive.

-al

[decula]

Capital punishment does NOT deter this sort of crime from happening.

I disagree. Cause and effect is something we are taught from an early age. Pull your sisters hair, get spanked.
Most folks understand that there are going to be repercussions for unacceptable social behavior.
Al drives too fast - he gets a ticket.


It has to begin with an understanding of the social factors that create this sort of person in the first place.

Perhaps an oversimplification? What about those with physical issues (as was eluded to about the person we are discussing) or other
internal factors (crack babies, fetal alcohol syndrome eg.).


The legal system operates after the fact...little or nothing is done to create a society where everyone feels they have an important place in it.

The legal system operates when someone exceeds the societal norms we have established. One has to take responsibility for ones own life and happiness.
If someone doesn't "feel" they are important, they need to correct their life - not depend on others to do it for them.

-dec