Heavy/Labored Breathing

[Aqualoon]

Hello everyone,

I should start out by saying that I do not keep discuss. However I made an account here and I’m posting this because this forum has a very active and helpful disease/sickness subforum and I am in need of some help and advice.

I’ll start out with the basics…

Tank Size: 150g 72x18x28
Filtration: 3 x Rena XP3
Heaters: 2 x Hydor ETH In-Line 300w
UV Sterilizer: Coralife Turbo Twist 18w
Other: Two Powerheads – one on each side of the tank for surface agitation

Tank Parameters
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: > 5 ppm
pH: 8.0

Tap Water Parameters
Ammonia: 1.0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
pH: 7.8

Using API Master Freshwater Test kit (liquid test kit, not strips).

Water Change schedule: 2-3 water changes per week 10-30%. I have black sand and I don’t like how poop looks on it so that’s why I do this many water changes a week. My tank generates less then 5ppm of Nitrates between water changes and has been up and running for about 2 years now but with a different stock. I have city water. I add Prime directly to my tank (I dose for the total volume of water and lately have been double/triple dosing) and then fill with tap water. I have been keeping fish for 4 years now using this method with no ill effects.

Stock is currently a mix of juvie SA/CA cichlids; I plan to thin the numbers as they grow out.

Symptoms: Rapid, heavy and labored breathing - slight flashing starting on 6-6-2011. I lost 1 fish to this when it first started – Prior to this fish I haven’t had a fish death in over 2 years.

Date it first started: 3-16-2011
I did a 50% water change on this day, after filling the tank back up I noticed all my fish had the symptom listed above. I immediately did another 30% water change thinking that maybe somehow something got into my water as I was doing the WC. This second WC didn’t help. I then added an air stone and turned off the lights. The next day I came home for lunch to check on my fish, I found my little male Green Terror dead and the rest of the fish still having the same symptoms.

I did some research and read that some water companies add extra chemicals when there is flooding. I am in a flood zone and half of my backyard was under water (part of it still is to this day which the flooding has never been THIS bad in my area). So I began triple dosing with Prime.

6-6-2011
Fish are still showing the same symptoms but some fish are starting to flash as well. This is when I went and picked up a UV Sterilizer. The tank temperature is 82F so I added another air stone to help with oxygen levels in the water since I normally keep the tank at 78F.

It had been about 3 months since the symptoms first started and have only lost that one fish. All the other fish minus the symptoms have been doing great. Eating normal, pooping normal and have grown.

Present Day
This past weekend I installed a window AC unit in this room (den) and my tank is back down to 78F. Last night I did a 20% WC and took out the air stones as I don’t really like the look of them anyways. About an hour after I took them out I noticed a few fish were at the surface gasping so I immediately put them back in and turned off the lights to keep stress levels down.

Before the WC (when the air stones were still present in the tank) fish had the rapid breathing – this has not gone away since the day it started. So I ordered from Prazi Pro online which will be here tomorrow to start treating for gill flukes.

I cannot see any type of flukes or parasites on the bodies of any of my fish – could it still be gill flukes?
I have the two power heads causing surface agitation and I have the 3 outlets of my canisters breaking the water surface – shouldn’t this be enough for oxygen levels for the tank? I see people with a lot bigger tanks then myself that don’t have to run air stones.

I’m at a loss for what this might be, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I apologize for the very long first post. I figured it's best to give too much information rather then not enough.

[Sean Buehrle]

Sounds like chlorine poisoning to me. Alot of people change water like you do but there is no doubt they are being exposed to it no matter the length of time it takes for prime to remove it.
Water companies up the amount of chlorine and chloramines often.

Start aging your water and see what happens and double dose the prime.



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[Aqualoon]

Thank you for the response.

My Tap Water report shows the following for Chlorine & Chloramine.

Chlorine 0.5 - 2.2ppm
Chloroform 0.46 - 1.3ppm

Which falls in line for my testing of ammonia from the tap (the chloramine giving a false positive for ammonia).

This is taken from Seachem's website regarding Prime.

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

I use 3 to 9 cap fulls per water change.

I'm not sure how fast Prime works but I see people use the word "instantly" when referring to it. I could see how when I did the 50% water change back in March and they (Water Company) added more chlorine to the water that this could happen - but then I would imagine this would have stopped shortly after since Chlorine gases off in about 24 hours. And then for future water changes I'm not sure how that would effect the fish since I was only replacing 15 - 45g of water at a time and each time dosing enough to take care of 15 - 45mg of Chlorine prior to adding water.

Is there any gill disorders that would cause the rapid breathing and flashing other then flukes?

Also, since the March 50% water change I did add a fish to the tank and she is also experiencing the same symptoms.

[Sean Buehrle]

Well my opinion is that repeated exposure to chlorine is probably the problem, I think 0.37 is a lethal amount. You have to remember that chlorine damages the gill tissue so the damage can be for good, it literally melts them away, it dies and falls off. Its no different than you inhaling 1 breath of chlorine gas a month, might not kill you instanlty but over time youll pay the price.
Not only does it affect fish, it also destroys benificial bacteria. You could have killed off bacteria in the gravel allowing toxins from it in the water.
I might be wrong, I would start out with aged water and see what happens.

Another benifit to aging your water is the amount of prime your using, 9 capfuls is enough for 450 gallons of water, that alone could be a problem.I see you had flooding in your area, in my nwck of the woods the mississippi river floods every year and the water company ups the chlorine to 4 ppm and i know its been higher, it smells like a pool in my house when the water is running. You cant trust the water companies, just cause they are listing 2ppm doesnt mean its not higher at your tap. Try taking your water to a pet store and have it tested, see if you have a bad test kit. Wouldnt be the first time.
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[Aqualoon]

Here's a short clip of the breathing I'm trying to describe. Not sure why I didn't think of this before, way easier to show everyone what I'm trying to say :)

Or I guess I can't post one...

[Skip]

message me the link.. i will post it

[Aqualoon]

Thank you very much, PM incoming after I get 5 posts.

[Aqualoon]

Shameless post (I'm sorry!)

[Skip]

Thank you very much for posting this for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TBeI8d-0k

[jimg]

I agree with the chlorine but also
Could be gill flukes easy to take one that just died and cut out the gills and scope or good magnifying glass.
Double check nitrites
if the tank is 2 years old could be build up of anaerobic bacteria pockets in the gravel
canister filters especially when dirty can consume high amounts of o2
could be other parasites/bacteria
high co2 levels
I would double check all test kits and water parameters if all good do a good tank/filter cleaning (easy on the filter bio media)
treat with quick cure for a few days. get the airstone back in.
the uv in and aquarium does very little if anything.

[Sean Buehrle]

That looks like lack of air to me. Get some surface agitation goin real good with either an airstone or a powerhead and see what happens. Could be flukes too. Get alotta air goin first, youll know within an hour.


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[Disgirl]

I have seen this in fish I used to have and it sure looks like gill flukes to me.
Barb

[Aqualoon]

I did my first dose of PraziPro on Saturday morning and as of this morning there was a noticeable difference. How long should I wait before I start my UV again? Because of the flow rate and wattage of my UV it will kill parasites in the water column. I mainly got the UV because I might want to house EBJD in the future and have read with how fragile they are that they seem to do better when younger with a UV sterilizer present.

As for lack of air - I have 3 canister filters each of their outlets is breaking the water surface, I also have two powerheads on each end causing surface agitation and I always have 1 airstone present. This is why I didn't think it was a lack of oxygen.

Also thank you for all your replies, I know I don't keep discus but when I was searching around the net this forum had the best active (and helpful) health/disease subsection and since I am keeping cichlids it would be somewhat relevant.

[Aqualoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TBeI8d-0k

This is the same Sev 3 days later - 2 days after using PraziPro. Just wanted to thank you all again...I appreciate it so much. Great community you have here and it makes me want to keep discus just so I have a reason to stick around :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W38aH32uWLk

[Disgirl]

Good to see the difference, hope that pretty fish stays healthy for you!
Barb

[Floppy Fin's]

I ran into the similar problem with 14 3" discus in a 90 gallon tank. I did a 50% water change, and refilled using a empty 56 gallon tank with aged water. However.. as the water level dropped in the 56 gallon tank, I added fresh tap water with (I discovered later) far outdated Prime I had used in a pond outside. 2 years outdated. So check your resources in your medications and dump anything close to being outdated. I am quite fortunate as I have all 14 discus back in recovery mode this morning. I used blackworms to prestart the digestive processes as well as Discus Bio-Gold in tiny amounts.. I removed any uneaten foods until this morning when I started them back on Discus Hans beef mix frozen food. They are back to near normal as the day goes by. Oh.. yes, I did get a bottle of fresh Prime, and used that as the only treatment in double dose per volumes of water. I think it was 3 caps to the 90 gallon.
Good luck..