debt and politics

[terps]

Well said. The laws are there to protect wildlife, but at the same time those enforcing the laws should have the people skills to correctly handle different situations. Sadly, in an era of budget cutting, and political games, the best people are no longer vetted or trained properly for certain jobs, and we end up with people of questionable judgement enforcing the law. This kind of thing then get publicized by people promoting their own interests as to why all regulation is bad.

Unfortunately, there is no budget cutting in our Federal Government. Spending will continue to increase next year and the year after that. The massive, insane spending continues in Washington, while the country goes deeper into debt. Hopefully, the liberal Democrats and RINO Republicans get trounced again in 2012 and the fiscal insanity finally stops.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/580096/201108011834/Painful-Cuts-Anything-But.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqoGORXAv2o

[MostlyDiscus]

Unfortunately, there is no budget cutting in our Federal Government. Spending will continue to increase next year and the year after that. The massive, insane spending continues in Washington, while the country goes deeper into debt. Hopefully, the liberal Democrats and RINO Republicans get trounced again in 2012 and the fiscal insanity finally stops.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/580096/201108011834/Painful-Cuts-Anything-But.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqoGORXAv2o
Sad but true Terps. I asked my ultra liberal Dad how is it that the goverment can spend more than it makes? I think thats the first time we didnt argue about politics.

[brewmaster15]

split off another thread...

-al

[Darrell Ward]

Sad but true Terps. I asked my ultra liberal Dad how is it that the goverment can spend more than it makes? I think thats the first time we didnt argue about politics.

The same way you do when you purchase a new home or car. It's called credit. Only now the right wing nut jobs have sworn to destroy the economy for political reasons, blame it on the White House, and tell the public the country is broke. BS! Yes, government revenues are lower than they have been since the 1950's thanks to corporate tax giveaways, and this is why the government needs to borrow more and more money just to keep the country running. At the same time corporations continue to post record profits this year. The country ain't broke! Saying the country is broke is just stupid when there is more money in this country now than anytime in history. If you guys continue to get your "news" from the right wingers, you are never going know the truth. They only tell you what they want "the sheep" to believe, and laugh at you for believing it. Try getting your economic data from actual economists for a change. However, it's no use wasting my time trying to reason with irrational people. Just ask the leaders of Congress. Believe the propaganda all you want. It's still sort of a free country these days! For what it's worth, I'm not a democrat either. I'm independent, and have voted for many republicans in the past, but not any more. Their present tactics disgust me. They are putting politics over the welfare of the country, and that is unacceptable to me. They need to tell Grover Norquest to go to H#ll, and help the people they were elected to serve. F-them all! Have a nice day! :)

[Skip]

F-them all! Have a nice day! :)

;)
http://littlestmartha.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/soap-box.jpeg

[Darrell Ward]

:laugh:

[kent1963]

Unfortunately its all a game to them anymore, No one will vote for something even if its a good idea if it comes from the wrong source.Their all wrong we need to spend less And tax more but do so with forethought not blind political agendas.

[Darrell Ward]

Unfortunately its all a game to them anymore, No one will vote for something even if its a good idea if it comes from the wrong source.Their all wrong we need to spend less And tax more but do so with forethought not blind political agendas.

Finally! Someone reasonable!

[atitagain]

A buddy of mine sent me this today.

There is a real easy way to solve this problem...... term limits!

Charley Reese's final column for the Orlando Sentinel...
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/reese.asp

He has been a journalist for 49 years.
He is retiring and this is HIS LAST COLUMN.

Be sure to read the Tax List at the end.

This is about as clear and easy to understand as it can be. The article below is completely neutral, neither anti-republican or democrat. Charlie Reese, a retired reporter for the Orlando Sentinel, has hit the nail directly on the head, defining clearly who it is that in the final analysis must assume responsibility for the judgments made that impact each one of us every day. It's a short but good read. Worth the time. Worth remembering!
--------------
545 vs. 300,000,000 People
-By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The President can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? John Boehner. He is the leader of the majority party. He and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan ....

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees...

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it... is up to you.

This might be funny if it weren't so true.
Be sure to read all the way to the end:

Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table,
At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.

Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for
peanuts anyway!

Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.

Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries
Tax his tears.

Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ***.

Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers;
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid...

Put these words
Upon his tomb,
'Taxes drove me
to my doom...'

When he's gone,
Do not relax,
Its time to apply
The inheritance tax.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Sales Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax


STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the heck happened? Can you spell 'politicians?'

I hope this goes around THE USA at least 545 times!!! YOU can help it get there!!!

GO AHEAD. .. . BE AN AMERICAN!!!

[YSS]

Can't blame the politiians for all things going wrong with the country although they don't help the cause. It's greedy Americans who want to get rich without working and living beyond their means. Stock market is the root of all economic evil. Greedy people trying to get rich without putting in hard work. Nowadays, it's the knee jerk reactions of investors that's driving economy to hell. Trying to make share holders happy by maximizing profit at all cost, shipping jobs over seas, and laying people off to drive up earning per share. CEO's get rich and everybody else suffers. It's the Wallmarts opening up in small towns to provide small town folks with cheaper priced goods, but they are the ones causing the small town folks to lose their jobs and driving up unemployment rates.

See what happened today? Investors selling off shares fearing economic woes. What happens next? Everybody panics because Dow Jones is down by more than 500 points. What does that mean really? Nothing. Some schmuck who bought a share of apple at $400 now lost $20 a share. It means nothing in terms of economy. Nothing gained or lost today in terms of economic out put of the country. But people feel really shitty about economy today because stock market lost value big. Most ever since 2008. So, people and company tighten things up and drive economy to a recession. I can guarantee that if we didn't have the stock market, we will have a lot more stable and robust economy. I am done ranting.

[Sean Buehrle]

.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[atitagain]

YSS, I'd have to respectfully disagree.

What happened with the market is a direct result of the way politicians handled the debit limit. It created uncertainty at a point where the global economy is very unstable.

Look at the way the handled approving the TSA budget, they all went on their summer break and put 70,000 people out of work for almost a week. It's all driven by our politicians! The whole bunch of them are nothing more than egotistical boobs. The US public and foreign countries have no confidence in our government anymore. Consumer confidence is at the lowest it's ever been and most of that is driven by our fractured government. Our government is not working for the people anymore, people are alarmed and it's reflected in consumer spending.

I believe politicians have completely set the tone for what's occurring right now. A lot of people just don't have confidence that the house and senate are representing our best interests. Lobbyists drive policy and long term politicians have no grasp on what is really going on anymore beyond what they hear from big money.

I guess I would ask when was the last time you spoke to your congressmen or state senator?

Never! So how does he know what "his/her' people really want. They don't, the lobbyists are where they get their information.

Term limits and stopping lobbyists would be the first step to getting us back on track. It's all about the money and how much you can line your pocket before the next election so that they can dig in their heals and make their ideology law.

Our system is so broken it's scary. Most are beginning to realize it and it's "trickling down".

[Darrell Ward]

It's true that Congress is broken right now. A small group of crazies refuse to do their job, and filibuster everything to prevent others from doing theirs. Perhaps come the 2012 elections, we can get enough sane people elected to actually get a functioning Congress working again, instead of people who only want to cut everything, and starve government out of existence, under the guise of "living within our means". When the TSA budget came up before the break, some Republicans opposed it unless Union busting language was added to the bill. (surprise!) So, it was not ALL members of Congress at fault. You have to understand that there is a group of people in Congress, as well as in many state governments now, that are actively seeking to set the country literally back 100 years, destroying all progressive gains of the 20th century. I know, it's crazy, but study what's going on nationwide, and you can see it clearly. Study what going on in many state governments, it's a clear pattern. Not all members are bad, some on both sides of the aisle truly want what's best for the country, it's just you have to dig deep to find what they have said and voted for, because the "cock fights" get all the soundbites on TV.

[atitagain]

Darrell I agree that is not every member but you have to admit as a whole the system is broken.

The members of both parties that want what right for the country need to get a spine and get in front of the public to talk about it. Not the normal BS talking points but good straight forward honest opinions on what needs to be done to get us back on track.

I truly believe that a major change is required in government and life politicians are a big part of the problem.

[brewmaster15]

Hmm...wonder what it would be like...

1) massive taxes on companies that export/outsource jobs overseas
2) massive tax breaks for companies that keep jobs here or create jobs here
3)Ban all lobbyists and special interest groups from political influence...
4)Overhaul the supreme court...more members so that theres more representation, no life time BS.. talk about tenure issues. Its an archaic system.
5)Put "we the People" back into politics... no where in the constitution does it say "we the Corporation,banking industry, insurance industry, religious whatevers" Our Country was founded on the the principal of people first....all else second.
6)Close corporate and Rich tax loopholes... Tax increases for the wealthiest members of our Country do need to be considered...but it does not matter how much you tax in a law, if it never translates to an increase in revenue because of loopholes and tax code exploitation. If taxes were fairly paid my guess is revenues would sky rocket.
7)Term limits for all politicians
8)Cap political spending on on elections so we get other than the wealthy and well connected running. Its insane what is spent on getting elected to a political position of service in our government.
9)Put economics, history, social studies, civics, back into school curriculum..its amazing how stupid people have become on these topics.
10)Put science back into the curriculum....real science...not the pseudo science spouted off by some sects(disagree if you want)...a prayer won't get us into orbit, or find us new energy sources....only hard science will do that.
11)Vet all politicians by testing...my god we have a bar examine for lawyers, medical examines for doctors, teachers and every other professional and yet any idiot with a big mouth or deep pocket can be a congressman making decisions that affect all of us.
12) Cut spending....where...EVERYWHERE>>>Flatly across ALL Programs...we all need to tighten our belts....but do it gradually..The deficit took years to make..slash and burn cutting in a recession makes no sense and thats the consensus of most economists that our politicians are ignoring intentionally for their own political gain in the upcoming elections.
13) massive tax incentives for one parent to stay home with their kids and raise them....(okay so maybe that ones not really necessary...but I do believe its extremely beneficial to have a parent actually raise their kids and not societal institutions.)
14)Stop blaming teachers for poor school scores...put it where it belongs.... on parents, and politicians that can't even agree on a standardized testing system for our country.
15)Mandatory civil service for ALL americans....age 18...you go into the military or civil services of some sort at home... College doesn't start until 19... why...because we need to instill a sense of community and common good here , our country is fracture by politics and religion...and our sense of pride in who we are as a nation is shot...we need to work hard to get that back, and it is an opportunity for our youth to grow and mature.

16)...oh who cares anyway... I could go on and on...but I doubt our politicians could even agree on whether or not to open my letter, let alone read it.

[atitagain]

Brew, I like your platform, you still have time to get in on the 2012 election. You have my vote! ;)

The challenge that we have is without a revolution you’ll never get reform. Term limits, banning all lobbyists and special interest groups and capping political spending (as well as everything else you mentioned) all have to pass through the house to get approval. They are the problem and there is no way to side step them in our political system.

[Darrell Ward]

Al, common sense makes some these people's brains go "tilt" like an old fashioned pinball machine!

[brewmaster15]

National binding referendums on keys issues may help....really when you think about it, politicians were from a time when communication and technology required them as an intermediary to the peoples will...maybe that role can be modified a bit by national referendums...It would give people a way to be sure that majority rules on issues and not the lobbyists and loud mouth special interests that are constantly courting politicians.

-al

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah, I think it might go a long way in getting important stuff done in a timely manner for sure. Set up permanent voting stations where the public votes and decides on issues, rather than some of these corporate owned politicians. I'd go for that.

[zimmjeff]

Al for President

[Skip]

Al for Governor of TEXAS.. Since Governor Pointy Boots will be running for President :)

[roundfishross]

funny thing ......my 8 yr old daughter asked me why the politicians are the only people who get paid to sit around staring at one another and not do thier jobs????? I thought about this for a while, and saddley had no awnser!:(

[YSS]

Today's economic instability is a direct result of greedy investors trying to make quick money in the stock market. You would be surprised how small impact politics would have on the global economy if it wasn't for the people trying to make quick bucks in the stock market.

[KEWX]

I vote for Brewmaster!



Hmm...wonder what it would be like...

1) massive taxes on companies that export/outsource jobs overseas
2) massive tax breaks for companies that keep jobs here or create jobs here
3)Ban all lobbyists and special interest groups from political influence...
4)Overhaul the supreme court...more members so that theres more representation, no life time BS.. talk about tenure issues. Its an archaic system.
5)Put "we the People" back into politics... no where in the constitution does it say "we the Corporation,banking industry, insurance industry, religious whatevers" Our Country was founded on the the principal of people first....all else second.
6)Close corporate and Rich tax loopholes... Tax increases for the wealthiest members of our Country do need to be considered...but it does not matter how much you tax in a law, if it never translates to an increase in revenue because of loopholes and tax code exploitation. If taxes were fairly paid my guess is revenues would sky rocket.
7)Term limits for all politicians
8)Cap political spending on on elections so we get other than the wealthy and well connected running. Its insane what is spent on getting elected to a political position of service in our government.
9)Put economics, history, social studies, civics, back into school curriculum..its amazing how stupid people have become on these topics.
10)Put science back into the curriculum....real science...not the pseudo science spouted off by some sects(disagree if you want)...a prayer won't get us into orbit, or find us new energy sources....only hard science will do that.
11)Vet all politicians by testing...my god we have a bar examine for lawyers, medical examines for doctors, teachers and every other professional and yet any idiot with a big mouth or deep pocket can be a congressman making decisions that affect all of us.
12) Cut spending....where...EVERYWHERE>>>Flatly across ALL Programs...we all need to tighten our belts....but do it gradually..The deficit took years to make..slash and burn cutting in a recession makes no sense and thats the consensus of most economists that our politicians are ignoring intentionally for their own political gain in the upcoming elections.
13) massive tax incentives for one parent to stay home with their kids and raise them....(okay so maybe that ones not really necessary...but I do believe its extremely beneficial to have a parent actually raise their kids and not societal institutions.)
14)Stop blaming teachers for poor school scores...put it where it belongs.... on parents, and politicians that can't even agree on a standardized testing system for our country.
15)Mandatory civil service for ALL americans....age 18...you go into the military or civil services of some sort at home... College doesn't start until 19... why...because we need to instill a sense of community and common good here , our country is fracture by politics and religion...and our sense of pride in who we are as a nation is shot...we need to work hard to get that back, and it is an opportunity for our youth to grow and mature.

16)...oh who cares anyway... I could go on and on...but I doubt our politicians could even agree on whether or not to open my letter, let alone read it.

[scottthomas]

Hmm...wonder what it would be like...

1) massive taxes on companies that export/outsource jobs overseas
2) massive tax breaks for companies that keep jobs here or create jobs here
3)Ban all lobbyists and special interest groups from political influence...
4)Overhaul the supreme court...more members so that theres more representation, no life time BS.. talk about tenure issues. Its an archaic system.
5)Put "we the People" back into politics... no where in the constitution does it say "we the Corporation,banking industry, insurance industry, religious whatevers" Our Country was founded on the the principal of people first....all else second.
6)Close corporate and Rich tax loopholes... Tax increases for the wealthiest members of our Country do need to be considered...but it does not matter how much you tax in a law, if it never translates to an increase in revenue because of loopholes and tax code exploitation. If taxes were fairly paid my guess is revenues would sky rocket.
7)Term limits for all politicians
8)Cap political spending on on elections so we get other than the wealthy and well connected running. Its insane what is spent on getting elected to a political position of service in our government.
9)Put economics, history, social studies, civics, back into school curriculum..its amazing how stupid people have become on these topics.
10)Put science back into the curriculum....real science...not the pseudo science spouted off by some sects(disagree if you want)...a prayer won't get us into orbit, or find us new energy sources....only hard science will do that.
11)Vet all politicians by testing...my god we have a bar examine for lawyers, medical examines for doctors, teachers and every other professional and yet any idiot with a big mouth or deep pocket can be a congressman making decisions that affect all of us.
12) Cut spending....where...EVERYWHERE>>>Flatly across ALL Programs...we all need to tighten our belts....but do it gradually..The deficit took years to make..slash and burn cutting in a recession makes no sense and thats the consensus of most economists that our politicians are ignoring intentionally for their own political gain in the upcoming elections.
13) massive tax incentives for one parent to stay home with their kids and raise them....(okay so maybe that ones not really necessary...but I do believe its extremely beneficial to have a parent actually raise their kids and not societal institutions.)
14)Stop blaming teachers for poor school scores...put it where it belongs.... on parents, and politicians that can't even agree on a standardized testing system for our country.
15)Mandatory civil service for ALL americans....age 18...you go into the military or civil services of some sort at home... College doesn't start until 19... why...because we need to instill a sense of community and common good here , our country is fracture by politics and religion...and our sense of pride in who we are as a nation is shot...we need to work hard to get that back, and it is an opportunity for our youth to grow and mature.

16)...oh who cares anyway... I could go on and on...but I doubt our politicians could even agree on whether or not to open my letter, let alone read it.

Couldnt agree more. All good ideas. Its not about one party being right and the other being wrong. They are mostly all wrong. Believing/saying that some republicans are holding the country hostage and are out to ruin the country is so ridiculous and foolish it makes me cring to hear people saying such things. BOTH parties have historically voted AGAINST raising the debt ceiling whenever they were not in control of the whitehouse. It has always been raised. There are many newly elected republicans that were voted into office on promises to end the crazy spending. They are at least voting on a principal that voters wanted. BOTH parties have promised to curb wasteful spending and then proceded to spend money willy nilly as soon as in office. It is also foolish to believe that running our government on credit and spending way more than we take in is the way to promote economic growth. We could confiscate 100% of all wealth from the top 500 wealthiest people and barely have funds to run the govt. for a few months. oh and then the ones who create new businesses and investments would be gone. Yeah great Idea.

[Pardal]

Right on Al
I just want to add, journalism/ politics in today's live influence if you go to MSNBC you got the democrats/ liberal side and if you go to FOX you got the republican/conservative side. what is bad about it is a 24/7 continuos show and they just keep digging to prove the other wrong. In the old days news were at a determine specific hours and it was a responsible journalist that evaluate and edit what it was important for the american people to know.
And all us as americans can't be so partisan. and get some compromise for the good of the country.
and they need to treat the american people also as adults. stop this 24/7 political bias news that have become more of an
Entertainment that new system.
Also is sad when a killer or a celebraty got more coverage than soldiers killed on action or returning home from defend our freedom.
To reiterate what I state ealier treat the american people like adults and respect us stop the entertainment and report the facts or news.
just my two cents.
Julian.

[scottthomas]

A buddy of mine sent me this today.


There is a real easy way to solve this problem...... term limits!

Charley Reese's final column for the Orlando Sentinel...
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/reese.asp

Great post atitagain. There are sure to be some new taxes added to that list in the near future. Thanks for sharing

[jimg]

The same way you do when you purchase a new home or car. It's called credit. Only now the right wing nut jobs have sworn to destroy the economy for political reasons, blame it on the White House, and tell the public the country is broke. BS! Yes, government revenues are lower than they have been since the 1950's thanks to corporate tax giveaways, and this is why the government needs to borrow more and more money just to keep the country running. At the same time corporations continue to post record profits this year. The country ain't broke! Saying the country is broke is just stupid when there is more money in this country now than anytime in history. If you guys continue to get your "news" from the right wingers, you are never going know the truth. They only tell you what they want "the sheep" to believe, and laugh at you for believing it. Try getting your economic data from actual economists for a change. However, it's no use wasting my time trying to reason with irrational people. Just ask the leaders of Congress. Believe the propaganda all you want. It's still sort of a free country these days! For what it's worth, I'm not a democrat either. I'm independent, and have voted for many republicans in the past, but not any more. Their present tactics disgust me. They are putting politics over the welfare of the country, and that is unacceptable to me. They need to tell Grover Norquest to go to H#ll, and help the people they were elected to serve. F-them all! Have a nice day! :)
I agree 100%

[scottthomas]

If you want to believe that people are out of work and losing their homes simply because "corporations" are getting rich from tax giveaways, That there are just some evil Republicans or Democrats who wish that America was in ruin lol, that there is more money than ever and just being given (lol again)to those rich people, or that governments' non stop wasteful spending of more money than it takes in on pork projects and welfare programs is the same as private citicens buying a car on credit?, then we will have to agree to disagree. I just wonder, what is the amount of taxation that is finally "fair". When will it stop? What is so wrong with expecting govt. to stop being wasteful with our tax dollars. Why do people have to believe that Business is bad? Dont we want jobs? That there is any real difference between Republicans and Dems? Isnt a penny saved a penny earned? I think everyones gone crazy. I agree with Pardal, its the media's fault. People spout off political rhetoric straight from Shawn hannity or Chris matthews and then claim to be independent. No wonder we cant elect good people to office.

[Darrell Ward]

Most of mass government spending is not wasteful. It runs the country. In fact, it's helping to prop up the economy right now. Get greedy with spending cuts, and people start getting laid off because you're cutting off their salary. Business is not bad either, but what's so great about you and I paying payroll taxes year after year, when Bank of America can make billions of dollars, and use loopholes and tax breaks to pay zero taxes at the end of the fiscal year? Are you making billions of dollars? Some corporations actually profit after added government subsidies. Are you cool with this? Are they creating any jobs with all the tax savings, and rebuilding infrastructure? So, is it political rhetoric to be pissed off about this when average citizen's salaries are flat, and millions of people are out of work? All while some politicians are actively pursuing voter suppression, and union busting tactics to prevent you from having any say in the matter at all? I think you may need to redefine "crazy" then.

[scottthomas]

In fact, it's helping to prop up the economy right now

Could have fooled me :)

Sorry I just dont get where we have "spending cuts" Show me a spending cut. Just one. Maybe you are referring to washington's definition of a spending cut. "a decrease in the increase of spending" That is not a cut. Both Bush and Obama have spent spent spent spent.

I do agree with you about subsidies and tax breaks for certain corporations. IMO govt. needs to quit picking winners and losers. The free market will work if govt. role is just to be referee and make sure citizens not ripped off and insure safety etc.. Otherwise stay out of business alltogether. Even so, taxes on corps mean very little. They just pass on the extra cost to consumers and prices for goods and services go up or moive overseas where cheap labor to save .

I do believe that businesses create more jobs when profits are higher. Basic economics. Expand and hire more workers. Businesses are just scared to hire in unsettled economic times with threats of higher taxes looming.

I want cuts but we need to do it gradually just the opposite of greedily.

[Darrell Ward]

With proper regulation and taxation, the system works. It has before. If corporations want to move overseas, let em! Just ban them from dumping their products on our shores with little to no regulation. Also, make it more expensive to sell Chinese products in the US, (the trade policies are a joke, they laugh at us). Use incentives such as reduced sales tax to encourage the sale of American products, and to get companies to hire workers instead of making do with fewer workers and keeping the money. The list of things that can be done is endless, if we had a working Congress, and I think that may come in 2012. People are sick of this crap. The days of record profits and little to no taxation are going to come to an end. It has to. Smart companies better start learning to make money the old fashioned way, instead of milking the crumbling system if they want to stay ahead. Take the auto industry for example, Ford was the only company to start restructuring their company several years before the auto collapse. They survived the busted bubble on their own without government loans, and went on to record profits ahead of GM and Chrysler. There are lessons to be learned here.

[scottthomas]

They survived the busted bubble on their own without government loans

and they did this without cutting spending and costs and jobs or just by borrowing and going into debt? Sounds like you are making my point.

[brewmaster15]

I think rather than arguing as the right and left does about tax increases and spendings...I think its time the address things like this...


Here's a list of companies, released by Sen. Bernie Sanders, who made extraordinary profits over the last few years -- some of them after receiving billions, even hundreds of billions, in government bailout funds -- and paid very little if any federal taxes. And in many cases, they actually got huge transfers of tax dollars in the form of tax refunds instead of having to pay in. Like the #2 company on the list:

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

The full list:

1) ExxonMobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings. [Note: Our post last April reported that ExxonMobil was owed $46 million by the IRS.]

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.
source..
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2011/04/top_10_companies_that_pay_litt.php

Now I don't know how accurate the numbers are, but I think its a fair assessment that 2 things are true...many corporations are benefiting incredibly from government spending and yet paying next to nothing in taxes or even getting refunds.... and two... The corporate tax rate is lower than its ever been....and that benefits shareholder..not job creation.

According to the article I got this from, the federal Government got 30% of its revenue in the 1950's from corporate taxes...it now gets 6%.....so wheres the balence come from...us...and borrowing.
either that or it comes from the tooth fairy.

Someone please fact check all this for me....I found it in 20 sec search on the net.

I don't see this as about tax increases and spending deficits.......There is a deficit and there are too many tax increases on the average American... What theres not is a fair tax system....

Why does a Corporation making Billions, issuing dividends to shareholders pay few or no taxes?.. If I tried that I'd get audited and probably lose my home....

But hey... IRS Audits of Corporations are down bigtime...30% by this report..

http://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/newfindings/v15/

Despite Rising Deficits, IRS Audits of the
Largest and Richest Corporations Decline

Despite a growing federal deficit, IRS audit efforts aimed at the nation's largest corporations have precipitously declined in the last few years and now are at an all time low, according to the analysis of agency data by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC).

Figure 1. Changes for large corporations
with assets of $250 million or more
between FY 2005 and FY 2009

Among corporations reporting assets of $250 million or more, the IRS since FY 2005 has cut back by a third (33 percent) the hours it spends examining their books. IRS has also sharply reduced the number of large corporate returns it examines — these audits have fallen by 22 percent since 2005 (see Figure 1 and Table 1).

This has occurred even though IRS auditors uncover the largest dollar amounts of tax under-reporting in the books of these large corporations (see Table 2) and Congress has actually provided IRS with more revenue agents trained to handle complex returns such as these (see Table 3).


Figure 2. Recommended additional tax
dollars per auditor hour uncovered
during corporate audits for FY 2009

On an hour-by-hour basis, IRS audits of all corporations show that misreported tax dollars among the giants came to $9,354 per auditor hour, eight times higher than uncovered for the small and mid-size firms (see Figure 2). Despite this huge difference in potential yield, as mentioned earlier, the IRS cut back the hours it spends auditing these firms by one-third. And the number of the largest companies that are escaping any IRS examination at all has ballooned — up 74 percent since FY 2005. In concrete terms, this means that three out of four corporate returns reporting assets of $250 million or more last year were not audited by the IRS (see Table 1).

Here is what the data show:

In sheer numbers, IRS audits of large corporations fell from 4,693 in FY 2005 to only 3,675 in FY 2009.

Figure 3. Declining audit rate for large corporations with
assets of $250 million or more between FY 1988 and FY 2009.
(Click for larger graphic and supporting data.)

Audit rates fell even faster. Relative to return filings, during FY 2005 IRS figures show that 43 out of 100 returns filed by these large corporations were examined. During FY 2009, only 25 out of every 100 large corporate returns were audited.

This downward trend continues a long-term slide in audit rates for these large companies. Twenty years ago, two out of three of these corporations were audited by the IRS (see Figure 3 or interactive returns and audits application).


Figure 4. TRAC's interactive returns and audits application. Click to explore how IRS audit practices have changed over time for small to large corporations



Even among the biggest of the big corporations — those with assets of $5 billion or more[1] for which IRS only began releasing audit data in fiscal year 2007 — the audit rate has declined 17 percent over the last two years, from 78 per 100 returns filed in 2007 to only 64 per 100 returns during FY 2009 (see Table 4).

Contrasting with these reductions in large corporate audits, the number of IRS revenue agents available actually grew by 6 percent since FY 2005. IRS revenue agents are the individuals assigned to examine complex returns (see Table 3).

Figure 5. Changes in IRS revenue agent
hours between FY 2005 and FY 2009

Although the state of the economy, the nature of enforcement and other factors can influence the overall outcomes, enforcement dollars collected as a result of all audits — individuals, businesses, estates, gifts, etc. — continued their downward slide and has now fallen below the levels of five years ago (see Table 5).

The finding that the IRS appears to have misdirected its work force is underlined by the fact that while audit hours aimed at the largest entities were sharply cut, the hours the agency chose to focus on other corporations increased. For example, since FY 2005 the audit hours for the small companies (less than $10 million in assets) jumped by 30 percent and the hours devoted to examining mid-size companies (assets of $10 million to less than $250 million) increased by 13 percent (see Figure 5).

The Politics of Tax Collection and Deficits

The dramatic collapse in the auditing of those corporations with assets of $250 million or more has occurred during a period of increasing national concerns about growing federal deficits, growing public distrust of big business and intense worry about the extent of white collar crime personified by executives like the investment adviser, Bernard Madoff.

From the intensity of the recent political debate over the health care law and other budget related issues, there is little doubt that at the federal and state level deficits and how to deal with them have become a major worry. This worry is somewhat reflected in the public polls. On March 10, for example, the Pew Research Center said that while unemployment, health care and the state of the general economy outranked the deficit as the top subjects of worry, that "for the first time in many years, public concern over the budget deficit is increasing." Last August, the Pew poll found, 6 percent of the respondents saw the deficit as the nation's top problem. By last February, this number had almost doubled, with 11 percent expressing this view. At the same time, when it comes to the priorities of the President and Congress, 60 percent said that dealing with the deficit should be the top priority.

Curiously, while both the size of the nation's deficit — now totaling $1.6 trillion — and the decibel level of debates have continued to grow, the subject of the current state of the government's tax collection effort and how it can be improved has rarely if ever been an important talking point for officials in the Obama Administration or members of Congress — Democratic or Republican.

In his weekly radio address on January 30, for example, President Obama made a very general promise to rein in budget deficits. While noting a proposed freeze on discretionary federal spending and the appointment of a bi-partisan commission to tackle the problem, he did not mention the persistent and growing problems of the IRS. Neither did this subject come up when Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, the co-chairmen of the new panel, were interviewed on the PBS Newshour in February.

One confounding factor in the national debate may be that many of those most worried about the extent of federal deficits feel most strongly about curbing the role of federal agencies in American life. It should be acknowledged that the current deficit is so huge that tougher enforcement — by itself — will not solve this problem. That is not to say, however, that smarter more focused auditing cannot have an impact.

The IRS's surprising failure to direct its growing army of revenue agents — there now are about 13,000 of them — at the very largest of the nation's large corporations is underlined by new statistics that the agency only recently released to TRAC after litigation with the agency. These data show that while revenue agent audit hours for the super biggest entities — those with $1 billion or more in assets — declined by 8 percent in the 2007/2009 period, the hours increased by 15 percent for those with assets from $250 million to less than $1 billion (see Table 6).

A Perverse Quota System: Has the Agency Set Up the Wrong Goals?

As described in IRS documents obtained by TRAC, each of the agency's divisions routinely establish "goals" or quotas for the aggregate number of audits they expect their revenue agents to complete each month. The mission of the Large & Mid-Size Business (LMSB) Division, for example, is to enforce the tax laws for businesses with at least $10 million in assets. The IRS unit responsible for smaller businesses is called the Small Business/Self Employed (SBSE) Division. Both groups have annual quotas broken down into monthly performance targets for businesses that are a part of their responsibilities. And for both the LMSB and the SBSE those businesses with fewer assets typically take less time to audit than those with more assets.

These quota pressures may well influence revenue agents and their managers when making their decisions about which business will be audited and which will not. Consider, for example, the auditor time spent examining the various sized businesses that are covered by the revenue agents working in both the SBSE and the LMSB Divisions. Within each division the data indicate declines in the auditor time spent on return classes that represent more time consuming audits, and increases for smaller-sized firms.

Figure 6. Performance targets for SBSE and LMSB
Divisions result in increased avoidance of more
time-consuming audits between FY 2005 and FY 2009

For example, for the corporations handled by the LMSB Division, the audit hours for mid-size firms increased by 13 percent in the last five years while the hours devoted to the large companies went the other way, declining by 33 percent (see Figure 6 and Table 7). Curiously, changes in the counts of returns filed showed a different pattern with the number of returns from the middle sized firms growing more slowly than those filed by the large corporations (see interactive returns and audits application).

The same kind of avoidance of the big guys and growing concentration on the smaller businesses over the past five years also can be seen in data about audits undertaken by SBSE. Hours devoted to examining smaller firms with assets of up to $5 million grew by 34 percent since fiscal year 2005, while the auditor hours spent on the top bracket of small companies (assets from $5 to $10 million) shrank by 11 percent during this period (again, see Figure 6 and Table 7).

The 34 percent increase in the audit hours devoted to the corporations reporting less than $5 million in assets occurred during the same time that the number of their return filings were dropping. And while return filings grew for companies with $5 to $10 million in assets since FY 2005, IRS auditors cut the time they devoted to auditing these firms (see interactive returns and audits application).

Although a direct causal relationship between the well-documented quota systems and the audits by corporation income class has not been established, choosing to audit the smaller rather than the larger businesses would on its face help the individual agents meet their performance targets in the two divisions. But the decision to audit the smaller companies does not help the government collect more taxes. This is because the data indicate that the larger the business, the larger the dollar amounts of tax under-reporting and back taxes on average that they may owe.


Supporting Tables

For additional corporate audit figures for FY 1992 through FY 2009 see the interactive returns and audits application accompanying this report. In addition, detailed audit and collection data are available via TRACFED (subscribers only).

Table 1. IRS Audits of Largest Corporations
($250 million in assets or more)
IRS Audit Activity: Fiscal Year Change
09 vs 05
2005 2009
Revenue agent hours (thousands) 4,568 3,053 -33.2%
Number of returns audited 4,693 3,675 -21.7%
Audit rate (per 100 returns) 42.6 25.0 -41.2%
Return Filings:
Number of returns filed 11,027 14,683 33.2%
Number of returns filed but not audited 6,334 11,008 73.8%

Table 2. Where IRS Finds Most Tax Under-Reporting Occurs
Fiscal Year 2009
Corporate Audits Dollars per
Auditor Hour Total Dollars Percent
Small and mid-size companies (up to $250M assets) $1,025 $1,837,468,431 6%
Large companies ($250M assets or more) $9,354 $28,554,882,530 94%
Total $6,273 $30,392,350,961 100%

Table 3. Revenue Agent Time
Fiscal Year Change
09 vs 05
2005 2009
All audits (revenue agent FTEs) 12,192 12,958 6.3%
Corporation audits only (thousands of hours)
Small companies (<$10 million assets) 548 714 30.4%
Mid-size companies ($10M to $250 million assets) 958 1,078 12.6%
Large companies ($250M assets or more) 4,568 3,053 -33.2%

Table 4. Audit Rate for Corporations
with $5 Billion in Assets or More
Fiscal Year* Audit Rate
(per 100 returns)
2007 78
2008 78
2009 64
Change: 2009 vs. 2007 -17%
* IRS has not released figures prior to FY 2007.

Table 5. Enforcement Revenue
Collected from All Audits
Fiscal Year Dollars in Billions
2005 17.7
2006 17.2
2007 23.5
2008 20.6
2009 17.4
Change: 2009 vs. 2005 -2%

Table 6. Revenue Agent Hours Spent Auditing the
Biggest Companies within the Large Corporate Class
Largest Corporations Fiscal Year* Change
09 vs 07
2007 2008 2009
$250M up to $1 Billion assets 418,809 407,015 480,850 14.8%
$1 Billion assets or more 2,800,527 2,710,619 2,571,866 -8.2%
* IRS did not provide breakdowns within the $250 million and above asset class prior to 2007

Table 7. IRS Performance Targets for SBSE and LMSB
Result in Avoidance of More Time Consuming Audits
Fiscal Year Change
09 vs 05
2005 2009
SBSE up to $5M assets 499,314 671,199 34%
$5M up to $10M assets 48,343 43,093 -11%
LMSB $10M up to $250M assets 957,551 1,078,177 13%
$250M assets or more 4,568,398 3,052,716 -33%


[1] Statistics released by the IRS for the $20 billion and above corporate asset class show that the agency has not been able develop a reliable and/or consistent way of distinguishing the largest corporations. Either it under-counts the number of returns filed in this largest class, or it over-counts the numbers of audits. As a result since it started releasing these numbers the IRS has been reporting that it is auditing over 100 percent of the $20 billion and above firms: 118 percent audited in FY 2007, 125 percent in FY 2008, and 113 percent in FY 2009. It is difficult to know what a decline in audit rates means when the numbers suggest IRS is consistently auditing more than the number of returns that are filed.





Spending levels aside, I wonder how much debt we would have if the revenue due the Government was actually collected and applied to the principal of our debt.

The problem I see with the arguement increasing spending levels is what you use you ultimately have to pay for and if you borrow you pay more and more...its a blackhole...The problem I have with those advocating cutting spending solely as a means of deficit reduction is that it makes the assumption that our current debt will be paid down by revenue from jobs creation and corporate taxes.....Thats great if the economy prospers and Corporations actually do their part...but it isn't and they haven't...and I seriously doubt they will..A Corporations driving motive is to make money....its not ethically driven...Thats capitalism. There was a time when these things may have fallen into place...but that was when an American Corporation hired Americans, paid their share, and were as American as Apple Pie.......In today's international market places...The rules have changed the game...

Okay..enough rambling.

-al

[jimg]

Very sensible rambling imo

[Skip]

Well, we are all in Trouble, if my Credit Rating is Better then the US Goverment's :)

[scottthomas]

According to the article I got this from, the federal Government got 30% of its revenue in the 1950's from corporate taxes...it now gets 6%.....so wheres the balence come from...us...and borrowing.
either that or it comes from the tooth fairy.

Someone please fact check all this for me....I found it in 20 sec search on the net.

I don't see this as about tax increases and spending deficits.......There is a deficit and there are too many tax increases on the average American... What theres not is a fair tax system....

Why does a Corporation making Billions, issuing dividends to shareholders pay few or no taxes?.. If I tried that I'd get audited and probably lose my home....

But hey... IRS Audits of Corporations are down bigtime...30% by this report..

Its hard to make sense of all the data out there. Most searches I did show that the US has one of the world's highest corporate tax rates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/21/corporation-tax-rates-world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
http://www.smartmoney.com/invest/markets/high-corporate-tax-rate-is-misleading-22463/
http://alhambrainvestments.com/blog/2009/01/29/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-oecd/


According to the article I got this from, the federal Government got 30% of its revenue in the 1950's from corporate taxes...it now gets 6%.....so wheres the balence come from...us...and borrowing.
either that or it comes from the tooth fairy.

Not saying that I have the answers but GDP in 1950 was only 293.7 billion. In 2010 it was 14508.2 billion dollars.

30% 0f 293 is 87.9
6% 0f 14508.2 is 870.492

Is my math correct?