Some questions on Ro and HMA water

[rorie87]

Hi there,

I am trying to breed discus, but my TDS is way to high. So i just got an RO system (arrived today) to lower the TDS in my water. It is a 3 stage RO system.

I am very new to Ro and HMA, so am looking for help.

1) I understand i cannot just add RO water during a water change, but need to mix it with 'normal' water. I believe this is due to lost minerals? I bought a Discus Ro Mineral replacement solution. Does that mean i could add 100% RO water during a water change?

2) Depending on the answer above obviously - I may need to add a percentage of tap water dechlorinated. My huge tub of dechlorinator is running out, so i am looking for a replacement. HMA? I know RO will dechlorinate my water, but as will and HMA. So what is the difference? If i get an HMA system, i was thinking i could run it to give me 'just dechlorinated water' and mix that with my RO (so its not 100% RO). Does that work? Any difference - positive or negative - to using HMA to give dechlorinated water rather than just a dech. solution?

3) When the RO water comes out the RO system, i also believe i need to let it sit for a while and aerate it? What is this about?

4) I hear with RO water it brings the water back to its original state, which makes it easier to 'change' into the water you want. For example a set PH level. How do you do this? I have solutions i use in tap water to lower the PH before adding to an aquarium (to 6.2) so is it just the same hting with RO?

Thank syou very much in advance :)

[TURQ64]

1. you can use RO with or without minerals; depends on the fish
2.I don't know what HMA is...
3.no need to sit, or aeriate it.
4. with buffers, but this leads to ph shifts.

[Ronald]

Ok lets see,

To get the TDS down you just need to cut it with Tap. Try 50% R/O with 50% tap and measure after an hour or so. Adjust according your goal up or down.
Normally folks do that in a preparation bin of some sort.
Like a sturdy garbage bin (The gray ones). Depending on your tap you would maybe need dechlorinater (e.g. Prime) to remove cloramines.
It is advised to age the water for 24 hours.
If you wish to add mineral replacements do so with measuring you TDS otherwise you might end up where you came from in the first place.

The amount of percentage will determine your pH as the Tap pH will change with the R/O water but that is not such an important part.
Providing the same water each time is more important.
About the proper pH the conclusions vary quite a bit. Me as an old-timer believe in ranges of 6.3 to 6.7. Others go even to 8.
But as mentioned that seems not the important thing anyway now. Stable conditions are the key.
The aeration takes care of the clorines in the Tap. Just check if you also have cloramines.

In the water section you will find tons of information from all camps there are. Just shift through and make a plan.
Start mixing and when you are satisfied with the result start that regime and see how it goes.

hth,
Ronald

[Sean Buehrle]

Buy a tds meter.
Fill a trash can or similar container 75 percent full with your ro water.
Add 1 gallon of tap water to the ro water stir and check tds with tds meter.
Keep adding gallons of tap till your desired tds is reached..
70 tds works for me.
Use prime or safe to dechlorinate the whole container of combined water.

Don't get Into the habit of trusting straight ro water to be free of chlorine unless you monitor it with a chlorine test kit regularly, it takes very little chlorine to kill fish or damage gills.

Let it aerate at least an hour.

Don't mess with the ph, leave it as is.

That's what i do.

Pretty simple.


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rorie87]

Thanks for the replies.

So.... RO water removes minerals etc, so we mix it with tap water to replace them. Does that mean i have two options - 1) Use a mix of RO and tap water, or 2) use 100% RO but add minerals to it?

HMA is a hard metal remover

[TURQ64]

either works...tap adds minerals, so do replacements....

[Sean Buehrle]

either works...tap adds minerals, so do replacements....

What's a good way besides tap to reconstitute the pure ro water.

I've heard mixed reports on ro right.

Why couldn't you just use some sort of two part reef additive and maybe some electrolyte additive. All you need is magnesium and calcium right?

Anyone doin this?


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TURQ64]

I have mostly used my RO reject/waste, as it is very high in minerals, and has already been thu quite a lot of prefiltering...I also use reef builder from Seachem, and Discus trace from Kent..other's have proven to be snakeoil IMO, but these work for me...Back in the days when I fed beefheart, I was adding a lot of multivitamins and beta carotene, but I'm off that horse for this round of fishkeeping....

[zimmjeff]

what is your tds?

[TURQ64]

At the tap,just under 400..RO reject,880+..RO (I have multiple units,some RO, some RO/DI)..between 23-26....in my tanks, breeder's around 75-80...Fry and half dollars...around 135.....Adult domestics and adult wild, 50-75..(in my shrimp tanks around 200, 'cuz they need the calcium)

[rorie87]

either works...tap adds minerals, so do replacements....

So i could be adding 100% RO water then?! It makes sense to me, but i have always read you should NEVER add 100% RO water :/

[rorie87]

my TDS in the tanks at the moment (with tap water) is around 150. My RO is giving me 4. Combined i am getting 60

[Ronald]

No do not add 100% R/O to your tank!
Always mix it outside the Tank and then add it.
To get to your goal just change like 25% until the Tank and preparation bin (after mix) are the same

Here is a recipe from Joe (can’t remember the last name sorry Joe)
I have used this many years with breeding as well as growing. It worked pretty good.


"heres the recipe to regenerate R/O with enough mineral content to stabilize your Ph plus its minerals found in Discus Waters forget the extracts and other junk. *
this is the way to go mix these together
per 20 gals water

3 grams Calcium Sulfate

1 gram calcium chloride(sea salt or aquarium salt)

1 gram magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts/drug store)


50 to 180 ms(microseamens) *breeders

180-250 ms for adults

250-350 ms for Juvies
"


hth
Ronald

[TURQ64]

Just for my knowledge, why shouldn't you add 100% RO to your tank?..

[Sean Buehrle]

Just for my knowledge, why shouldn't you add 100% RO to your tank?..

From what I've read
Supposedly the pure ro water will suck the minerals out of the fish.
Is it true? No idea.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TURQ64]

Please explain that to my fish...In my home location, I've used nothing but since the early 90's..I'd say 20 years..I know my water, so whatever minerals I'm replacing I perform at the beginning of any WC. My Discus regimen consists of staying acidic and dodging many pratfalls..The only deviation is fry, which is still supplemented RO at my house..everything else is soft. to each his own, but I was under the impression when I joined this forum that all comments were to be firsthand, and otherwise information needed to be source-cited..So I'd like to hear something factual to the 'never' concept....Gary

[Ronald]

The question was if it is advised to add 100% R/O to TDS whatever to get to a certain goal in the main tank.
I would not advise such a swing and I never would advise such a swing.
The bottom line for mixing in a preparation bin is to avoid swings in TDS,pH, temp and so on. You know that very well so I do not understand your question.
If one is fine with mixing in the actual Tank then I am fine with that also.
The statement to add 100% R/O without mentioning the mixing will only bring some guys to add 100% R/O without mixing.
That discussion was already done somewhere in the water section.
The method of adding to the main tank or preparing in a preparation bin will yield 2 opinions.
You happen to be on the side thats ok with mixing in the tank and I am on the preparations bin side and have no desire whatsoever to get into a fight.
Regarding first hand or citing: I am having Discus for over 30 years now so I will just go with first hand thank you very much.

Regards,
Ronald

[rorie87]

obviously there are more ways of doing it then. Each to their own and all that.

Not so stir things up, but why cant i add 100% RO if i mix in something such as kent discus essentials? I thought that replaced everything RO took out which discus needed?

[Ronald]

If you add KD Essentials it is not 100% R/O anymore. It is called reconstituted R/O and unless you use the DI you should have a TDS of around 5-10 anyway.
Whenever you add whatever your TDS will change so you must find the right balance.
You can use Kent Discus Essentials or any other method that is out there.
I went the route with Joe s recipe with success but it is a bit time consuming. Now I just cut the R/O with Tap and that works just fine.
The pH is a bit high for my tasting but oh well just has to do I guess.

Adding the 100% R/O during w/c will result in swings in the tank. Regardless if Kent or whatever is added before or after adding the R/O water.
So you must decide what you think is best and give it a try.

Unless you let the R/O go direct into the tank at production (drip system) you will already have a storage of some sort.
So you could add your minerals (Kent and so on) already there before putting it into the tank.

[illumnae]

I use 100% RO/DI on my Rio Negro and Rio Orinocco biotope tanks with blackwater species (wild Heckel discus, altums, Uaru fernandezyepezi, Satanoperca daemon etc). No harmful effects observed and my fish love the low TDS/pH it brings. I have Catappa leaves/peat in my sump to provide the blackwater effect and to add tannins and what not. Afaik, the water you find in such habitats are pretty close to RO water anyway in terms of constitution (aka pure water with low TDS steeped in tannins) so I don't see the harm if it suits your fish.

On the other hand, I wouldn't do this with domestics or hard water fish as these fish do not thrive in such conditions the way my current fish do.

The moral of the story is: Tune your water to suit your fish, there's no "never" when it comes to issues like this as some fish love the water as close to RO you can get while others don't.

[Ronald]

You nailed it down pretty well illumnae.
It all depends on what you have, filter or no filter, Domestic or Wilds, Biotope or Bare bottom, just holding or breeding and the list goes on.
Sometimes I wish I was back in Germany. There I had a natural spring were I got water (a PITA to get it) for a Wild Biotope Tank.
Just added some peat in the sump and voila wild fry in a community tank without tinkering and preparing and all that other nonsense we do hihi.

[TURQ64]

You folks are in 'confuse them with the facts' mode...There's no swing if you are in RO already..I still see no one has posted documentation, or proof of 'harm'....I raise all my fish in RO as stated..Wilds, domestics, you name it.I no longer do African types, but that's apples and oranges...fish will adapt if necessary to almost anything..They are still 'just fish'..It's still just a case of 'whatever works' for any one individual. If you are a beginner, then you shouldn't be trying to screw with your water. Lesson one..If you are not, then decisions on water quality are in your hands; the fish will follow along.....Gary

[rorie87]

Ok, looks like i cause confusion from the outset by talking about my 100% RO. I have indeed got a TDS of 5 after my RO system. I then add kent essentials and the TDS goes up to around 60. My PH is 7.0 in RO water obviously. Yet out of my tap it is lower than that! Currently my discus are in 6.2 PH. I will experement with my RO water - adding my kent D. and then putting air through it for 24 hour. Hopefully it will be stable, then if my tank is the same.....happy days!"

Thanks for your help

[TURQ64]

Rorie, at the tap, gases are compressed in the colder incoming water. the ph will be lower at this point. Then when it's aeriated, whether in a barrel, or later in the tank, the ph will rise from the escaped co2 etc.....

[Ronald]

"You folks are in 'confuse them with the facts' mode...”

That is just a condescending unnecessary comment.
Which you follow with explaining the same the other way around!!!!
Your Quote: "There's no swing if you are in RO already..”

And if you are not in R/O ALREADY???????

That is it for me.

To the OP
If you fell I confused you sorry. That was not my intention.

Regard,
Ronald