Waterchanges vs. Filtration

[REC]

I almost have my 75g growout completed and ready to order fish. Question is I see a lot of you doing daily waterchanges for juvies. What type of filtration are you guys running on lets say a similar size tank as mine? I've always over filtered my tanks to be safe on keeping parameters in check and to keep crystal clear water. Ive included a picture of my set-up on my 300gas an example. My 75 will have a 16x/hr turnover rate with the system I'll be running. Will daily waterchanges still be necessary for proper juvie growth with this much filtration or could I get away with 50% every other day?

[cjr8420]

filtraion does not remove nitraites main reason for wc.nice loaches

[Darrell Ward]

filtraion does not remove nitraites main reason for wc.nice loaches

True. You don't need to massively over filter. Waste of money. I've done 50% water changes every other day for years in moderately stocked tanks with good success.

[jimg]

wc are for removing nitrates but more important imo is wc's keep pathogens and bad bacterial levels in a lower range that discus can handle.
I think most people new to aquariums feel the filter is to keep the tank from floating debris, true but most filtering should be bio not mech. (unless you have fish that tear through the bottom) as water with a good bio load in the filters will be clear. water that is very clear does not mean it clean. if you hardly ever change your water and have a good bio load in a simple sponge you will have water crystal clear but high in nitrates.

[Darrell Ward]

...Fish also use up valuable minerals from the water over time as well. These need to be replenished with fresh water for the fish to be at peak health.

[LizStreithorst]

I don't know why, but Discus do best with lots of clean water. Perhaps it's nitrates or perhaps it's something we don't yet understand. Change lots of water with the same or near the same pH as your tank water and you will be fine.

[REC]

filtraion does not remove nitraites main reason for wc.nice loaches


True. You don't need to massively over filter. Waste of money. I've done 50% water changes every other day for years in moderately stocked tanks with good success.

You guys can't be serious. What exactly do you think a filter does? There are many many benefits to over-filtering a tank. The combination of a powerful filtration system and being bare bottom is perfect for keeping nitrates in check. The above 300g had over 40 5+" clown loaches and about 8 large cichlids and a 2ft. black arowana and never did my nitrates reach a dangerous level with only 30% weekly water changes. Some of you running a single sponge filter of course you need to do daily waterchanges because you have nothing to remove and break down the feces and uneaten food in your aquarium. Your only means is to suck it out with a WC which makes sense. I never saw any left over food or feces in my 300g due to a filtration system that pulls in this waste at all levels of the aquarium. A filters job is to take this excess food or feces and break it down into biological filtration rather then laying in the tank becoming chemical waste. By running such an elaborate system daily WC's aren't necessary to keep the nitrate's in check.

[REC]

...Fish also use up valuable minerals from the water over time as well. These need to be replenished with fresh water for the fish to be at peak health.

Now this makes sense. Very interesting concept. What do you think of Seachems Trace Mineral additive for discus?

[jimg]

You guys can't be serious. What exactly do you think a filter does? There are many many benefits to over-filtering a tank. The combination of a powerful filtration system and being bare bottom is perfect for keeping nitrates in check.

the filter does not keep nitrates in check it releases them as the final product of nitrification
also removing the feces and excess food is better. does not matter whether it's being broken down in the filter or the bottom of the tank, it's still there rotting

[LizStreithorst]

IMO the fish get the minerals that they need from their FOOD, not their water. Suit yourself. It appears that you have already made up your mind.

Gotta run. Need to change the syphon hose from the second tank to the third. My sub adults are getting 60% today. They only got 30% yesterday. The day before I did wipe down and 50% The day before that I was lazy and they got nothing other than food.

[REC]

I'm simply looking for reason to do daily changes for juvie discus. Now when it comes to adults what do you recommend?

[jimg]

i drain juvenile tanks almost to the bottom until they lean. Adults I change about 70% every other day. I would do it every 3-4 days but I do not want the water sitting in the storage barrels that long.
My wc's sometimes change depending of how many fish in certain size tank also. So I really never stick to one certain schedule other than the juveniles.
people with soft water or low kh have to change theirs more often.

[LizStreithorst]

The reason is that the fish do better. Adults are tougher. You can do less WC with them. I prefer to give the fish the conditions in which they do the best. I can only speak from my personal experience. Do as you decide. If you are happy with the results continue with the way you do.

[jimg]

IMO the fish get the minerals that they need from their FOOD, not their water.
i'll split the difference... maybe they get the minerals from the water and the vitamins from the food!

[Darrell Ward]

From what understand from reading on the subject, they get minerals from both food and the water.

[jimg]

From what understand from reading on the subject, they get minerals from both food and the water.+1

[LizStreithorst]

I have to disagree. I breed in sraight unconsituted RO. People say that water like that is not conducive to life. I strongly disagree. I have an old pair that I had to work with for three months. The enitre time they were in straight unconstintuted RO. It did the pair no harm. Finally, I got a batch of about 150 from them. Their offspring wil be at NADA next year.

[jimg]

I have to disagree. I breed in sraight unconsituted RO. People say that water like that is not conducive to life. I strongly disagree. I have an old pair that I had to work with for three months. The enitre time they were in straight unconstintuted RO. It did the pair no harm. Finally, I got a batch of about 150 from them. Their offspring wil be at NADA next year.
Would you be willing to raise the fry in that water? that would answer it

[LizStreithorst]

Would you be willing to raise the fry in that water? that would answer it

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to do that simply because RO water is so wasteful. But ask April or Francis. The water where they are in Canada is like pure RO. Or ask Paul on BIDKA. Or perhaps you should consider what the water is like in the Amazon.

[jimg]

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to do that simply because RO water is so wasteful. But ask April or Francis. The water where they are in Canada is like pure RO. Or ask Paul on BIDKA. Or perhaps you should consider what the water is like in the Amazon.
I'm not saying you are wrong. Al Johnson always told me they get their nutrients from food too. i was simply suggesting maybe you could raise them in the ro water to answer. I based that on many including myself use higher tds water for growouts and I don't remember seing anyone say they raised their in pure ro. I guess with all the wc's it would be a waste.
Plus I believe with the softer water the infusion rate of water through their cells could be easier for them to get minerals from water.

[TURQ64]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents...I'm not doing it at present with fry here, but our water system in this part of my state is relatively new. We've only had 'running water' since the early 80's..When I moved my Discus here from CA. I raised them in pure RO for 5 years, until they figured out what they were adding to the water, burying lines, stirring up mud,etc...In that time I raised probably a 1000 Discus, and 10,000 angels for sale...Never had any structural isues with any fry, juvies, or producing adults...They were never wanting for food or water quality, but I had few culls.....We aren't short on minerals, as I've stated before here in liquid granite land, so even my RO is higher in minerals than a lot of other's....With double charcoal, and double DI, I'm still at 26 ppm's...Gary

[jimg]

I didn't know ro was available in the 80's. In 88 the house i grew up in had fairly hard well water I used to get the boyd resins in bags to soften the water. then gave up and used straight tap,no difference that I remember

[Darrell Ward]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents...I'm not doing it at present with fry here, but our water system in this part of my state is relatively new. We've only had 'running water' since the early 80's..When I moved my Discus here from CA. I raised them in pure RO for 5 years, until they figured out what they were adding to the water, burying lines, stirring up mud,etc...In that time I raised probably a 1000 Discus, and 10,000 angels for sale...Never had any structural isues with any fry, juvies, or producing adults...They were never wanting for food or water quality, but I had few culls.....We aren't short on minerals, as I've stated before here in liquid granite land, so even my RO is higher in minerals than a lot of other's....With double charcoal, and double DI, I'm still at 26 ppm's...Gary

Actually, that could explain why some people can get away with using straight RO without having problems. They have hard water high in mineral content before RO.

[TURQ64]

My fist unit was a custom build from an aquarium maintenance guy I rubbed shoulders with at Steinhart Aquarium...I still have my first Spectra-Pure unit,(my second unit) from oct. '89, serial number 02696...I'll bet there's a ton of numbers now, if they even keep track!....when they first installed our rural system, you'd get these great 'surprises'...They'd hook up a new customer, and when they turned them on, all down the system, we'd get mud and debris out of the tap from them digging to lay the pipes....yuck!..Our neighborhood is the lowest point in the system, so any time something is changed out for maintenance, we still get all the crap, chloramines, whatever....it sucks, but it beats bringing it home in jugs (which we used to do)....Kinda like the bush in Alaska, but without the scenery!

[jimg]

that's cool you still have that!
I never got into the internet until a couple years ago. I had to rely on whatever I asked at different lfs. which was always what they had to sell, not what worked so to speak

[LizStreithorst]

I too would like for someone to do the experiment. Even when my fish room is up and running I won't waste my time on experiments. I'm a breeder, I'm old. There is so much to do and so little time. I know what works for me, and I will continue with it. My feeling is that minerals in the water are of little consequence. I could be wrong.

[LizStreithorst]

Actually, that could explain why some people can get away with using straight RO without having problems. They have hard water high in mineral content before RO.

Straight from the tap my gH is 0 and my kH is only 4.5. Discus are supposed to get their minerals from the gH, no?

[TURQ64]

There's a lot of calciferous rock in the strata here..I think whether you are in limestone, etc. determines a lot of tap specs...

[judy]

I overfilter and do WCs in my DT once a month, 50%, and the fish are all large, healthy and growing. Because it's heavily planted and has floating limnophilia that grows like crazy, as well as duckweed (blah), I have to prune once a month just before the WC. Nitrates never go above 10. Ph does drop some over the month, but I catch it before it goes below 6.5. I add Trace Elements for Discus weekly, Excel every other day, and a little iron every couple weeks. No more often than that or I get too much BBA for the siamese algae eater to deal with. Maybe I'm just lucky to have accidentally hit on the right mix of plants, filtration, and tap water quality (our city water comes straight from a lake in the Canadian Shield, is treated only with chlorine and fluoride at the moment, and is 7.6 out of the tap with a Kh of 12. Can't remember the Gh because it;s been so long since I tested for that.).
I only change about 30% of the water twice a week in the juvie tank, which is also overfiltered-- in large part because I noted that whenever I did a WC before bed, I lost two or three babies by next morning and if I DIDN'T do a WC for a few days, during that time I lost none. The remaining youngsters are growing like weeds-- at eight weeks they eat eight to ten times daily and are larger than a Canadian toonie, which is larger than a U.S. silver dollar. Go figure...
The hospital tank is the only one that gets a 90% WC daily.
Here's a not very good shot of a few of the babies... caption "what is that tall thing looming at us???"

68415

[Ed13]

Most filtration systems are designed and setup to perform a mechanical removal of detritus and sother solids, handle a biological cycle, and management of chemical products. At the heart of the setup, is the biological filter were nitrogen rich organics are processed and less toxic by-products produced. Many believed the filter handles ammonia and nitrite and that the sole purpose of water changes is the removal of nitrate. Not so, the filter may handle nitrogen rich organics but there will be a build up of many unknown wastes which may be the cause of stunting and poor health. Unless a method is employed to remove or oxidize these unknonws, they are removed via water changes.

Also, fish are constantly putting out waste and it is being partially removed with every water change, so the waste builds up over time. Hence the reason for future water changes.

As to the chemistry of the water required for discus, let's not forget where these fish come from. Last time I checked, most of the year the water discus inhabit is pretty much pure rain water. So logic tells us, they must of adapted to acquire most of their mineral intake through their feed. Of course, the wild discus menu is much more varied and rich, and with so little scientific studies on what discus actually need to develope a proper nutrient feed we can only guess...

[roclement]

To the OP:

My issues with over filtration with discus are various so I will list a few:

Two much water movement from the return can cause the fish stress
Maintaining all the filters can be more complicated and time demanding than doing a simple water change
Cost associated with over filtration versus doing water changes just doesn't pan off for me.

I am a fan of over filtration in tanks that have difficult access like public areas and such but I am yet to see one person that over filters and properly maintains their filters, you may be one of the exceptions, and from the looks of your set-up, you have given it some tought and invested some $$$ into it.
Discus like calmer water so I would think about that for your tank, it is so easy to change some water every couple of days...

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Rodrigo

[judy]

the filter may handle nitrogen rich organics but there will be a build up of many unknown wastes which may be the cause of stunting and poor health. Unless a method is employed to remove or oxidize these unknonws, they are removed via water changes.
..

What unknown wastes? Don't we pretty much know what the process of biofiltration handles and what wastes are produced by fish or organic decay in a tank?


To the OP:
Two much water movement from the return can cause the fish stress
Maintaining all the filters can be more complicated and time demanding than doing a simple water change
Cost associated with over filtration versus doing water changes just doesn't pan off for me.

I am a fan of over filtration in tanks that have difficult access like public areas and such but I am yet to see one person that over filters and properly maintains their filters, you may be one of the exceptions, and from the looks of your set-up, you have given it some tought and invested some $$$ into it.
Discus like calmer water so I would think about that for your tank, it is so easy to change some water every couple of days...
Rodrigo

It is easy to baffle the return flow in an Aquaclear 110 by using a piece of curved pop bottle to deflect the return onto the rear wall, which dissipates the flow dramatically.
Maintaining HOB filters is a piece of cake, requiring only periodic rinsing of the sponge media in a small bucket of tank water. Likewise with an in-tank sponge filter. It's a LOT easier than siphoning eight or ten five gallon buckets daily-- which you have to do if you are vaccing the tank bottom, as you can't use a pump for that-- and hauling them back and forth!
Cost associated with over-filtration? What cost? It costs nothing.
I truly believe you would be surprised at the number of people who use over-filtering instead of constant water changes, and who properly maintain those filters to ensure top water quality. They just won't admit it because they get dumped on by the daily water changers who insist the poor souls aren't properly tending their fish by not doing massive daily WCs. Mine are happy as heck. But I am moving to a larger tank, because the juvies I keep from my spawning pairs have increased the tank population too much. A dozen discus is too many in a 78, along with the three angels and the dither fish-- and even with that, my water parameters stay perfect in between changes and the fish are healthy.

[REC]

I've enjoyed reading this debate and have learned so much. I honestly can't wait to start growing out this group of juvi's. Thank you to all of you.

[roclement]

@ Judy
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was responding to the op, how is that related to baffling /the the returns of aqua clears? That is not over filtration, that's filtration.
What the op has under his tank in the first post is over filtration, if he had one third of those in a 75 gal. Tank, the fish would need balasts to stay in place...

Nothing surprises me Judy, like I mentioned, the op seems organized enough to actually maintain that many filters, comparing that thing with rinsing some sponges in a bucket make no sense....my post was in response to he initial post. One thing I know for a fact, there are way more people that don't maintain their filters properly than not, we can't use hobbyists like us as measuring sticks, we love our hobby and respect our fish, the guy that buys a fish kit at wallmart and kills a few dozen fish before he gives it up completely is much more prevalent than us.

Rodrigo

[Sean Buehrle]

You guys can't be serious. What exactly do you think a filter does? There are many many benefits to over-filtering a tank. The combination of a powerful filtration system and being bare bottom is perfect for keeping nitrates in check. The above 300g had over 40 5+" clown loaches and about 8 large cichlids and a 2ft. black arowana and never did my nitrates reach a dangerous level with only 30% weekly water changes. Some of you running a single sponge filter of course you need to do daily waterchanges because you have nothing to remove and break down the feces and uneaten food in your aquarium. Your only means is to suck it out with a WC which makes sense. I never saw any left over food or feces in my 300g due to a filtration system that pulls in this waste at all levels of the aquarium. A filters job is to take this excess food or feces and break it down into biological filtration rather then laying in the tank becoming chemical waste. By running such an elaborate system daily WC's aren't necessary to keep the nitrate's in check.

..
Funny stuff there



---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stag]

REC, I run 2 x magnum 350s on my 55gallon.

So coming from someone who over filters... "You tank is out of hand, in a awesome yet negative way!";)

[judy]

@ Judy
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was responding to the op, how is that related to baffling /the the returns of aqua clears? That is not over filtration, that's filtration.
What the op has under his tank in the first post is over filtration, if he had one third of those in a 75 gal. Tank, the fish would need balasts to stay in place...

Nothing surprises me Judy, like I mentioned, the op seems organized enough to actually maintain that many filters, comparing that thing with rinsing some sponges in a bucket make no sense....my post was in response to he initial post. One thing I know for a fact, there are way more people that don't maintain their filters properly than not, we can't use hobbyists like us as measuring sticks, we love our hobby and respect our fish, the guy that buys a fish kit at wallmart and kills a few dozen fish before he gives it up completely is much more prevalent than us.

Rodrigo
Sorry, Rodrigo, should have been clearer: the "baffling" with pop bottle plastic note is in response to your concern that over-filtering can mean too much current. With HOBs, you can use these baffles to reduce current to very little. The OP may have another setup, I was just making an observation. True, there are more poepl than not who don't maintain their filters properly-- but I'd venture a guess that very few of them keep discus.

[REC]

The filtration I have set-up for the 75g is as follows. Mag350 (polishing canister) , Emperor 400 (biological/chemical) yes I run carbon and will continue to do so, and a Filstar xp3 canister for mechanical/biological filtration. I still plan on doing daily waterchanges as suggested by many of you while these fish are still young. I'm always willing to take others advice especially since you have a lot more experience in keeping discus then I do. When this group gets larger I'll move them into a 150g that is almost complete and waiting for there arrival. It will have a similar setup including once again a mag350 for polishing purposes, (2)emp400 hob filters and a large FX5 for mechanical. I will probably cut wc's back to every other day on this tank. Here is pic of the 75g. Having vinyl installed tomorrow and should have it up in running by mid week.

[Stag]

I turn my micro polishing filters off when I feed, net out any leftover and flip them back on. I also turn my water outlets (from filters) into the corner to help baffle the current.

I hope this helps.

[REC]

I had the same plan with both of these tanks to reduce too much current which I've come to understand discus don't like.

[Stag]

They'll get used to it! Might even make their fins grow faster and longer!

lol JK

Are you trying to drop the PH with all that wood?

[REC]

I'm sure it will help but not really. I'm a wood *****. I love the look it gives an aquarium. I have some monster pieces in my 300.

[Stag]

The tank looks great!

I run a black background as well. If you are going to order fish and don't like the look of peppering I would steer away from any PB derivatives. The black backgrounds bring it out in them a lot!

The discuses are also spooked easy and tend to dart around without looking when they do get spooked. You may want to file down any sharp edges on your driftwood.

I pretty new to the hobby and it sounds like you are as well. Just trying to look out for ya. If my input is not helpful feel free to tell me to "mind by business".

[roclement]

Sorry, Rodrigo, should have been clearer: the "baffling" with pop bottle plastic note is in response to your concern that over-filtering can mean too much current. With HOBs, you can use these baffles to reduce current to very little. The OP may have another setup, I was just making an observation. True, there are more poepl than not who don't maintain their filters properly-- but I'd venture a guess that very few of them keep discus.

Got you! And agree with you, not a lot of people here not maintaining their filters...at least not ones who last! :)

Rodrigo

[Rex82]

I used to believe in over filtration and waterchanges everyother day, now I find it easier to adequate filter and dump water daily, seems to work alot better and with drains in the bases of all my tanks it is definitely alot quicker.

[PAR23]

I believe the WC/Over filtration topic has been well debated here. Ultimately you will figure it all out what works for you.

Are those Silver Dollars I see in that tank? I also have 6 of them that I bought when they were juvies. They are about 15 months now. They are a lot of fun to keep.

[REC]

I believe the WC/Over filtration topic has been well debated here. Ultimately you will figure it all out what works for you.

Are those Silver Dollars I see in that tank? I also have 6 of them that I bought when they were juvies. They are about 15 months now. They are a lot of fun to keep.

They are red hook silver dollars between 7-8".

[PAR23]

Those are awesome. Mine continue to grow despite their age. No stunting with these silver dollars.

[ExReefer]

My two cents - when I get home from work, I feed my Piwowarski's their third feeding of the day (this time it's FDBW's). They eat, but with mild energy. Around 9pm, I perform my daily 80% WC. I feed them again within with 10-15 mins. after the WC, only now they ATTACK their food like sharks (same food - FDBW's). It's pretty clear to me their energy level and appetite picks up after a WC. This is all I need to see to know filtration cannot duplicate a fresh water supply.

To the OP: if you want to go with over filteration, just keep some adult discus. My adult wild discus tank gets fed once a day and receives a 60-70% WC once a week. The fish do great, but they are already grown out.

[REC]

My two cents - when I get home from work, I feed my Piwowarski's their third feeding of the day (this time it's FDBW's). They eat, but with mild energy. Around 9pm, I perform my daily 80% WC. I feed them again within with 10-15 mins. after the WC, only now they ATTACK their food like sharks (same food - FDBW's). It's pretty clear to me their energy level and appetite picks up after a WC. This is all I need to see to know filtration cannot duplicate a fresh water supply.

To the OP: if you want to go with over filteration, just keep some adult discus. My adult wild discus tank gets fed once a day and receives a 60-70% WC once a week. The fish do great, but they are already grown out.

Is this 75% waterchange completely out of tap? I only ask because I'd be worried of a spike in temperature once the waterheater runs out of warm water and your running cold water in. This was never an issue with my sa/ca tanks who preferred 79 or so degrees but 85-86 to stay steady would need most of the 56g water entry on a 75g tank to be fairly warm. I guess its a good thing i'm running (2) 300w heaters on this growout tank.

[YSS]

Nice tank there. You have 40 loaches? Pretty nice. I have 10 very large loaches with my discus and I love them.

As for the water changes in the grow out tank. I am on the side that you don't need daily water changes. Amount and frequency of water changes should be based on size of the tank and number of fish you have in the tank. If you have 6 juvies in a 75G, you don't need to perform 50% daily water changes. If you have 30 juvies in a 75, may be. I have grown out 2.5" juvy to almost a 7" very nice fish in a planted tank with tons of other fish including over 15 large discus feeding 3 sometimes 4 times a day. That tank did not get daily water changes. I currently perform 75% water changes every 5 days in my discus tank and things are going very well. As for running out of hot water, I have experienced it in the winter. So, I do not keep my tank at 85 to 86 anymore but more around 82 and I fill the tank very slowly so that my water heater will have time to catch up while I fill the tank. I take well over 30 minutes to fill my tank with water, probably close to an hour. I think my fish prefers when I fill the tank slowly. Good luck with your discus. You obviously know a lot about keeping fish. If whatever you are doing is not working out that well, I am sure you will find the way that works for you. I have.

[REC]

Nice tank there. You have 40 loaches? Pretty nice. I have 10 very large loaches with my discus and I love them.

As for the water changes in the grow out tank. I am on the side that you don't need daily water changes. Amount and frequency of water changes should be based on size of the tank and number of fish you have in the tank. If you have 6 juvies in a 75G, you don't need to perform 50% daily water changes. If you have 30 juvies in a 75, may be. I have grown out 2.5" juvy to almost a 7" very nice fish in a planted tank with tons of other fish including over 15 large discus feeding 3 sometimes 4 times a day. That tank did not get daily water changes. I currently perform 75% water changes every 5 days in my discus tank and things are going very well. As for running out of hot water, I have experienced it in the winter. So, I do not keep my tank at 85 to 86 anymore but more around 82 and I fill the tank very slowly so that my water heater will have time to catch up while I fill the tank. I take well over 30 minutes to fill my tank with water, probably close to an hour. I think my fish prefers when I fill the tank slowly. Good luck with your discus. You obviously know a lot about keeping fish. If whatever you are doing is not working out that well, I am sure you will find the way that works for you. I have.

Yes i'm what you could call a loach hoarder. They are all over 5". I'm not going to put any in my discus display probably just a small group of albino cory's and a good sized group of cardinals once I move them into the 150g. I plan on running 12-15 juvies from hans in the 75g and just remove wood as they grow. Once they reach around 4-4.5" I'll have the 150 ready for them.

[ExReefer]

Is this 75% waterchange completely out of tap? I only ask because I'd be worried of a spike in temperature once the waterheater runs out of warm water and your running cold water in. This was never an issue with my sa/ca tanks who preferred 79 or so degrees but 85-86 to stay steady would need most of the 56g water entry on a 75g tank to be fairly warm. I guess its a good thing i'm running (2) 300w heaters on this growout tank.

Yes, straight from tap. I have not run into that problem as long as I wait until later evening and nobody else needs hot water. Don't forget that your hot water heater will continue to make hot water even though you are pulling from the tank. It tries to keep up with the demand in other words.

[YSS]

Yes i'm what you could call a loach hoarder. They are all over 5". I'm not going to put any in my discus display probably just a small group of albino cory's and a good sized group of cardinals once I move them into the 150g. I plan on running 12-15 juvies from hans in the 75g and just remove wood as they grow. Once they reach around 4-4.5" I'll have the 150 ready for them.

Sounds like a great tank. Get a big group of corys if you can. I have over 40 corys in my tank I love how they behave.

[fscii]

I view water changes as fresh air. Even if you could air filter your breathing air in a plastic bag forever... you'd still be better off with fresh air. Yeah there's a lot more to it (nitrates, removal of solid waste) etc. too. I've seen discus in Asia raised without filters. The water was trickled into the tank and was allowed to trickle out of the tank giving a constant water change (detritus was vacuumed). Those fish were growing phenomenally.

[Statik]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone,

i too am wondering the benefits of a frequent water change. let me explain, i have had my planted mixed fish tank for over a year now and three weeks ago i traded my fish and bought some discus ( 14 of them) ranging from 2.5 to 4 inches. I also have around 25 cardinals, 2 small plecos 6 amano shrimps and a colony of malaysian trumpet snails(in the hundreds). i feed my discus 4 times a day and i do a 25% wc. every two days. here are my water parameters.

fish tank ------- tap water

ph 7 -------7.5
gh 6 ------- 6
kh 6 ------- 8
nh3 0 ------- 0
no2 0------- 0
no3 5------- 0

my filter is a fluval g6 , i use seachem purigen and phosguard and peat.( i had put the peat in 3 days ago but removed it as my ph is at my desired level.) i have co2 injection and i dose flourish excel everyday and flourish comprehensive plant supplement once a week. I also run a uv sterilizer. my last 25% wc. was 5 days ago on the 17th sept.

So here is the thing: i am skipping my wc. and monitoring my water parameters closely to see if theres any spikes. since my tap water ph is higher by doing a wc. it will mess with my tanks ph. i will keep you guys updated . Im not trying to never do a wc. but simply figuring out what is a good frequency with my set up. my goal is a 25% weekly wc or if i can pull it off, a 25% wc. every 2 weeks. I will test my water every 2 days and when my nitrate levels reaches 20 i will do my wc.

i know on the forums everybody preaches on water change some even do daily 50%
supposidly it promotes rapid fish growth but personally im not looking to have the biggest possible discus in my tank. i prefer them being happy at a relative size to my 90g tank.

let me know what u guys think.

[REC]

^ Its not done to promote rapid growth as much as it is for getting the full potential out of your Discus. The first year of a discus's life is crucial in them reaching there max potential (color/shape/size). This is especially true in higher(better) blood lines. Your approach will ultimately lead to stunted fish sorry. Young discus need lots of food and constant fresh water. With lots of quality food and large daily waterchanges you can take a juvenile to max size within a year. I've seen stunted discus first hand in my father in laws planted aquarium. His discus grew to about 4" and haven't grown since. This is a result of not giving them what they require when young. He feeds twice a day and does weekly waterchanges. The best you can do for your fish is grow them out in a bare tank and although time consuming follow the heavy feeding and daily wc's. Once they get big then you can have them in a nice show planted aquarium. Saying you wan't to purposely stunt there growth so all 14 can live in a tiny 90g is ridiculous. I'd personally rather have (5) 7" beautiful adult discus in a 90g then 14 oddly shaped stunted discus cramped in the same aquarium. If you didn't wan't to go through the hefty grow-out process you should have dug deeper in your wallet and paid for adults.

[Statik]

If stunted meaning the fish not gowing to its full potential then im ok with that. I prefer them to be on the smaller size 4 to 6 inch. I have 7 at 4inch and they look good with nice colors. all of them are eating well

im new to this forum and it doesnt let me post links but search for :

freddy's discus tank on youtube and you will see my tank



like i said i am monitoring my water parameters closely. if theres any spikes then wc. will be done

[REC]

^ Tank looks good. If the adults were bought at a fish store there probably already stunted and you may get a little more size out of them. The little one's would be the only one's I'd worry about with your planned regimen of waterchanges but if thats what you wan't then it works I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CWLY5XsB1E

[Chad Hughes]

Rec,

I was involved in a little contest on this forum a while back. All of the contestants were given six 2~3" discus to grow out over one years time. Naturally, most took the conventional daily mass water change approach. I took a planted tank/filtration approach. Here's a link to my thread about filtration. (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?71402-How-I-manage-water-quality....&highlight=) I didn't feed them around the clock eaither. Three solid feedings a day with excelent quality food (my own). :) These fish are stil in my possession and are massive. I figure I used about 2600 gallons of wather through the duration of the contest changing 50% each week. The tank was a 110 tall. With daily 50% changes I would have used 18,250 gallons of water. Big difference!

Can filtration be used over thousands of gallons of water? Absolutely. It's all about what you feel comfortable with and what you are willing to invest your time and money in (water bill/filtration). The simple fact that your tank is planted puts you many steps ahead of glass box with a filter on it. Plants are a natural part of the filtration process and they will readily absorb your nitrates, amongst other nutrients. All of you readings should be zero. Honestly, if you are reading zero on nitrates, you should probably add some. I use dry fertilizer in my planted tanks. This allows me to custom fertilize.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my thoughts at your OP. I like to see folks take different approaches. Keeps things interesting!

All the best!

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah, but Chad's tank is far from being typical. I think the majority of people (especially newbies) don't even understand ozone, much less how to set one up and run it successfully. I'm not even sure I fully understand it myself, and I've been in the hobby over 40 years! LOL!

[REC]

Rec,

I was involved in a little contest on this forum a while back. All of the contestants were given six 2~3" discus to grow out over one years time. Naturally, most took the conventional daily mass water change approach. I took a planted tank/filtration approach. Here's a link to my thread about filtration. (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?71402-How-I-manage-water-quality....&highlight=) I didn't feed them around the clock eaither. Three solid feedings a day with excelent quality food (my own). :) These fish are stil in my possession and are massive. I figure I used about 2600 gallons of wather through the duration of the contest changing 50% each week. The tank was a 110 tall. With daily 50% changes I would have used 18,250 gallons of water. Big difference!

Can filtration be used over thousands of gallons of water? Absolutely. It's all about what you feel comfortable with and what you are willing to invest your time and money in (water bill/filtration). The simple fact that your tank is planted puts you many steps ahead of glass box with a filter on it. Plants are a natural part of the filtration process and they will readily absorb your nitrates, amongst other nutrients. All of you readings should be zero. Honestly, if you are reading zero on nitrates, you should probably add some. I use dry fertilizer in my planted tanks. This allows me to custom fertilize.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my thoughts at your OP. I like to see folks take different approaches. Keeps things interesting!

All the best!

Interesting read, thank you. I guess I'm doing the best of both worlds. My 75g has a 20x hr turnover rate with the amount of filtration i'm running and i'm doing 90% daily waterchanges. I just picked up a 110g tall myself how do you like yours? Any pics of the 110g?

[Chad Hughes]

I liked that tank a lot. Sold it to another forum member here after the contest was over. There are pictures of that tank in the contest threads.


Interesting read, thank you. I guess I'm doing the best of both worlds. My 75g has a 20x hr turnover rate with the amount of filtration i'm running and i'm doing 90% daily waterchanges. I just picked up a 110g tall myself how do you like yours? Any pics of the 110g?

[Statik]

Thanks guys,

I have to say the plants in combination with the seachem purigen is doing a great job keeping the nitrates in check and the water clear. I think the malaysian trumpet snails are a good part of the equation too eating the algea and the waste on the substrate. i never syphoon the substrate and its still rather clean.
I will test my water tomorow to see if anything is different.

[ExReefer]

Interesting read, thank you. I guess I'm doing the best of both worlds. My 75g has a 20x hr turnover rate with the amount of filtration i'm running and i'm doing 90% daily waterchanges. I just picked up a 110g tall myself how do you like yours? Any pics of the 110g?

20x per hour? Sounds like your running reef tank. If your truly doing 90% WC's per day, then you could basically unplug your filtration and sell it on craigslist. Seriously, it's not serving much purpose with that much fresh water on a daily basis.

[jimg]

I raised a lot of discus in planted tanks doing just enough wc's to keep nitrates around 5-10 and had the same amount of growth rate as any other tank other than fry/sm juveniles with 70-90%daily wc's.
There is a lot less wc's needed in a fully planted tank.
The only problem I had is when you get a problem like bacterial, flukes, white feces etc it's almost impossible to treat a planted tank with substrate,plants wood etc.
I would never try it again. I would only do it with known clean healthy adults

[DerekFF]

I have to disagree. I breed in sraight unconsituted RO. People say that water like that is not conducive to life. I strongly disagree. I have an old pair that I had to work with for three months. The enitre time they were in straight unconstintuted RO. It did the pair no harm. Finally, I got a batch of about 150 from them. Their offspring wil be at NADA next year.

Do people get minerals from the air? ;-p

[Sean Buehrle]

Do people get minerals from the air? ;-p

Fish can live in straight ro no problem, they can get plenty of minerals from food.

[REC]

20x per hour? Sounds like your running reef tank. If your truly doing 90% WC's per day, then you could basically unplug your filtration and sell it on craigslist. Seriously, it's not serving much purpose with that much fresh water on a daily basis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MRmxfLuNto

No biological filtration, no water movement = oxygen depletion. Last I checked discus aren't betta's. 14 of them in a stale 75g with the amount of feeding I'm doing 8x would be a disaster.

[Statik]

;) ^ LoL

[Statik]

Ok so today is my 6th day since my last 25% water change, here are my water parameters:


ph 7
kh 6
gh 6
nh3 0
no2 0
no3 10
co2 17.7


Just curious to know who thinks i should do a wc. how much and why? Or i should leave it as is?

I have a heavily planted tank with 14 discus and 25 cardinals and a cleaning crew with a colony of trumpet snails.
I feed my discus lightly 4 times a day.

[Statik]

I just put in a dose of potassium in to see if it will help my plants intake nitrate faster

[walt3]

that video is hilareous! i think he was kidding a bit about the craigslist though. i like that guy in the vid. he has done some funny stuff on snl i believe. a bank making change skit was hilareous as well. :) walt.

[DerekFF]

Fish can live in straight ro no problem, they can get plenty of minerals from food.

I know. It was a little sarcasm for the people who use the minerals in the water as a "legit" reason for WC's. They all know im pokin fun

[Skip]

Just curious to know who thinks i should do a wc. how much and why? Or i should leave it as is?

.

just do what you want..

its simple..

[walt3]

the easiest and fastest thing to do with a proven track record of success is to do partial water changes. period. however... to each his own. i dont want to become an expert in dealing with sick fish so i have found a pleasant nightly routine for water changes. change water... move on. thats my moto. :) keep it simple... good luck. walt.