mutilating angels

[Mattzilla]

I am having some issues on another forum where a guy has some angels that have had their tail snipped off when very young so that they are 'arrow shaped angels'.



The thread can be seen here: http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php/35682-My-black-arrow-angels



This guy doesn't believe that his fish were mutilated to make them this way. he thinks it is a 'new strain' or something???!!!



I am looking for some evidence of the partice of removing angel or discus tails to creat these monsters.



I feel very strongly against this parctice and would like to educate all the readers on this thread about it.



your help is appreciated



thanks

matt

[brewmaster15]

Hi Matt,
I don't know if those Angels are genetically bred like that or if they were done surgically, but I do know that if the tail rays are just snipped, it grows back in days and its done routinely. Its used to remove defective or damaged fins so they grow back like new...I've posted on this here...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?27044-Heckel-Hair-Cut!!!!&highlight=heckel+haircut

This should not be confused with cutting and deforming the tail and bones there in a manner that is a permanent mutilation...The fins themselves are meant to grow back in nature.

Hope that helps,
Al

[Mattzilla]

Hi Al

thanks for responding mate

i'm aware of the practice of trimming fins. in this case we are not talking about that

in this case the entire tail is being cut off at the base of the body. in fact through the fleshy section at the back of the body

thanks

[plecocicho]

This is no trimming, but good old mutilation and those poor angelfish should not had any business in our hobby, just like awfull hybrids, artifically coulered (poor glass perch), tattoed, artifically made "batman" rays...

[Mattzilla]

my god is this done to rays as well???!!!???

why would people want to do this sort of thing???

[Sean Buehrle]

While it is strange to do this to a fish, I don't find it vile or anything like that.

There are several types of dogs and cats that are altered, dobermans great Danes have tails and ears clipped, many breeds of dogs have their tails cut off at birth.

Acceptable for a puppy but not a fish?


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[Mattzilla]

While it is strange to do this to a fish, I don't find it vile or anything like that.

There are several types of dogs and cats that are altered, dobermans great Danes have tails and ears clipped, many breeds of dogs have their tails cut off at birth.

Acceptable for a puppy but not a fish?


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docking dogs tails is now illegal in australia because it is recognised as animal cruelty

would you cut the tail off one of your fish just to make it look different?

would you buy a heart shaped or butterfly discus knowing what is went through to get that way? and how many of it's siblings died due to infection?

i wouldn't

[Sean Buehrle]

docking dogs tails is now illegal in australia because it is recognised as animal cruelty

would you cut the tail off one of your fish just to make it look different?

would you buy a heart shaped or butterfly discus knowing what is went through to get that way? and how many of it's siblings died due to infection?

i wouldn't

No actually I wouldn't because it doesn't represent the breed, it has no use or reason other than appearance .


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[warblad79]

Why would people do that? These people are really sick and very cruel. They need to leave the animals alone even they are just animals they are living things too like human being.

[Mattzilla]

feel free to leave your feedback and thoughts on the thread in question.

i have seen that a couple of people have joined the forum just to voice their moral standing against this practice

[cjr8420]

While it is strange to do this to a fish, I don't find it vile or anything like that.

There are several types of dogs and cats that are altered, dobermans great Danes have tails and ears clipped, many breeds of dogs have their tails cut off at birth.

Acceptable for a puppy but not a fish?


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this would be like cuting off a dogs leg so you can have a 3 legged dog fish needs its tail to swim like a dog needs its leg to walk.ears and tails being clipped will not effect the animals movment.so would it be vile to cut a dogs leg off for no reason than to have a 3 leged dog ?i like how how that guy with these says they are bred but will give no proof what so ever.i guess whatever it takes for him to sleep at night.

[Ryan]

this would be like cuting off a dogs leg so you can have a 3 legged dog fish needs its tail to swim like a dog needs its leg to walk.ears and tails being clipped will not effect the animals movment.so would it be vile to cut a dogs leg off for no reason than to have a 3 leged dog ?i like how how that guy with these says they are bred but will give no proof what so ever.i guess whatever it takes for him to sleep at night.

This was going to be my response. Reading the thread in question, people compare it to docking dogs' ears and tails, and even circumcision in male humans. It's not quite the same thing. I can still perform sexually even though I'm circumcised. Dogs still have a good quality of life if they have docked ears/tails. But a fish has a caudal fin for mobility. It's a vital part of a fish. Sure, they may survive without it, but can anyone really say their quality of life isn't affected? Would you cut off your dog or your child's legs?

I have never liked these tailless fish, just like I do not like the "balloon" fish that have what appear to be short/deformed spines. Whether this is being done manually by cutting or whether it's a genetic mutation that's being selectively bred for, I still think the animal is at a disadvantage IMO.

[brewmaster15]

This was going to be my response. Reading the thread in question, people compare it to docking dogs' ears and tails, and even circumcision in male humans. It's not quite the same thing. I can still perform sexually even though I'm circumcised. Dogs still have a good quality of life if they have docked ears/tails. But a fish has a caudal fin for mobility. It's a vital part of a fish. Sure, they may survive without it, but can anyone really say their quality of live isn't affected? Would you cut off your dog or your child's legs?

I have never liked these tailless fish, just like I do not like the "balloon" fish that have what appear to be short/deformed spines. Whether this is being done manually by cutting or whether it's a genetic mutation that's being selectively bred for, I still think the animal is at a disadvantage IMO.I AGREE ON ALL POINTS!

-AL

[DanMan]

I just read that thread. The OP is an idiot. It seems he may have been a respected member until now.

I think he made a bad purchase not realizing what he was buying....and now he is likely embarresed and his ego is preventing him from admitting he screwed up. So he continues to try to defend (lamely).

I have no doubt he now realizes they're mutilated....however I seriously doubt he'd ever admit it.

[Sean Buehrle]

I just read that thread. The OP is an idiot. It seems he may have been a respected member until now.

I think he made a bad purchase not realizing what he was buying....and now he is likely embarresed and his ego is preventing him from admitting he screwed up. So he continues to try to defend (lamely).

I have no doubt he now realizes they're mutilated....however I seriously doubt he'd ever admit it.

He should post a video of them swimming, I doubt he will.




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[Sean Buehrle]

this would be like cuting off a dogs leg so you can have a 3 legged dog fish needs its tail to swim like a dog needs its leg to walk.ears and tails being clipped will not effect the animals movment.so would it be vile to cut a dogs leg off for no reason than to have a 3 leged dog ?i like how how that guy with these says they are bred but will give no proof what so ever.i guess whatever it takes for him to sleep at night.

Well if you really think about it even cutting a dogs tail off is altering it.

To a human it's just a cosmetic practice, but to a dog

You have taken away it's way of communication, they do communicate with other dogs to express dominance or subordinance.
They do use their tail as a rudder to run just as a cheetah does.
So I see no grey area between the two, you are altering both.

The only question is, is it ok to do it just a little to one and alot to another?
I see no reason to do that to a fish.

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[Jennie]

I've never seen angels tails snipped..you might post this in the angelfishforum and see what they say..as for dogs..tail docking was performed on working dogs..in war, guard and field, to prevent injury as often DID happen..it is better to do at 3-5 days then to surgically correct later. I cant say anything about any breed needing it today other than feild dogs, who often do injure themselves.

[strawberryblonde]

I took a good look at the photo's and they appear to be photoshopped to remove the tails and distort the fins. Check out the perfectly square black notch where the base of the tail should be.

I can't imagine what his purpose was in posting shopped pics of angelfish, but would guess that he was hoping to get inflamed reactions (hence his demand not to comment) and then he sat back, snorted and laughed and waited to see how long it would take for his thread to climb to the first page of google/bing, etc.

[DerekFF]

Im not a scientist nor a photo shop expert, but im not seeing any "scarring" as would be expected of a fish with flesh cut off in a project like this. Also seeing as how theres a lot removed if it was actually cut wouldnt there be nerve damage? the spine runs right down to the base of the tail and IF cut, it looks like a rather large amount of body was removed, i would expect some sort of neurological damage. I cant comment on any animal cruelty here because it looks to me that its genetic and not mad scientist based.

[Mattzilla]

i've seen the tank full of them at the shop he bought them from and i'm sure they have been cut

check the links on the thread and you'll see examples of fish that have had their tails cut and they still grow well and there is not always a 'big ugly scar'

[strawberryblonde]

Ahhhhh, I didn't realize that you'd actually gone to that shop and looked at the fish. I can't even work up the nerve to dock my dogs tail and have to put up with blood spatter everywhere from her "happy tail". I can't imagine doing that to a fish!

[Ryan]

They sold discus like this a while back. Heart shaped discus or Valentine discus or some nonsense. In some instances I think it's a genetic deformity. I have fish occasionally born without paired pelvic fins, dorsal fins, etc. I always cull them but I guess there are people who'll try to make money off anything.