New to discus... question about coloration

[nhaynes11]

Hi there,

I recently purchased two discus (separately). Last week I went to my LFS and bought, what the owner called a Marlboro... only it is very obviously NOT (see photo). Later in the week my boyfriend headed down to a breeder in the next city over and had a chat with the owner who seemed much more knowledgeable and bought the first discus (Thing 1) a friend (Thing 2).

Thing 1 seems pretty dark but also has these white speckles. It doesn't look like ich. There's no flecks on the fins, and the speckles don't look raised like ich usually does. Thing 2 darkened a little bit after we got it home but is still much lighter, but I can also see some small speckles on his/her head. I've heard of peppering but I thought it was only for the pigeon varieties.

Any suggestions as to what this may be? Both eat well. I'm feeding brine shrimp and bloodworms. Temp is 84 and ph is a bit high at 7.4 but we're hoping to walk it down with water changes. Also, any suggestion on what they are? I was thinking brilliant blues.

Tank: 30 gal xhigh
Substrate: ecocomplete black (just planted the tank this weekend)

68596 68597

[TURQ64]

Hi, # 2 definitely looks like ich.also appears stunted from the photo with possible internals..# 1 has some bacterial issues affecting it..If both are in the same tank, you've got some trouble.....please fill out the questionaire in the disease section and post it there..Thanks..Gary

[strawberryblonde]

I second what Gary says. You've got some sick fish and they need treatment. Here's a link to the questionnaire that you need to post in the disease section of the forums. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

Just copy and paste it into a new thread in the disease section, then fill it out, ok?

[nhaynes11]

Thanks! I just posted it!

[Fishplants]

Is the pH of your tank significantly different from the tank the fish came from? Have a look at this photo, this fish went into a tank that was a lower pH than the tank it came from. Note all the white spots around the head (these actually covered the majority of the fish). This is definitely not Ich, and disappeared within a few days.

This is the second time I have observed this, in two different tanks with two different fish, after moving them into a tank with lower pH. Your fish looks like this apart from the dark colouration. Another tell-tale hint for me is the 'milkiness' to the end of your fishes tail, I have seen this many times on discus when introduced to a tank with a pH lower than the tank they came from.

IME Ich does not survive at healthy Discus Temperatures 28 degrees celsius to 30 degrees celsius.

Just some thoughts.


68604

[kingkong954]

Hi Folks!

Here are more pics to help in the diagnosis: d3f.org/2011/09/discus-dots/

We are pretty confident that is not ich. Ich has fuzzy edges, appears on fins as well as the body, and is typically raised. It also has a more random pattern and inst seen as densely unless you're talking about very very sick fish. Then there's the whole 84 degrees+ business that we have the tank set at (dual heaters, dual thermometers).

We've been keeping fish for over a decade; this is our first foray into Discus, however, so their behavior and appearances are new to us. We had a SPS reef tank for 6 years until we got out of the hobby and just went freshwater (hence why we have some gear like RO/DI, float switches, and T5HO on this tank).

Their behavior has been great. They dont hide and eat very aggressively (we are feeding 3x a day via brine shrimp and blood worms; waiting for ON discus flake to showup from DrsFoster). I've seen much discussion regarding discus shyness, and propensity to hide when darkly colored, however that is not the case with these two. They are out in the open, aggressive, energetic, and eat well. These white spots, however, are interesting.

Thanks,

[kingkong954]

Is the pH of your tank significantly different from the tank the fish came from? Have a look at this photo, this fish went into a tank that was a lower pH than the tank it came from. Note all the white spots around the head (these actually covered the majority of the fish). This is definitely not Ich, and disappeared within a few days.

This is the second time I have observed this, in two different tanks with two different fish, after moving them into a tank with lower pH. Your fish looks like this apart from the dark colouration. Another tell-tale hint for me is the 'milkiness' to the end of your fishes tail, I have seen this many times on discus when introduced to a tank with a pH lower than the tank they came from.

IME Ich does not survive at healthy Discus Temperatures 28 degrees celsius to 30 degrees celsius.

Just some thoughts.


68604

The red turqoise specimen came from a breeder who uses tap water for their tanks and runs them at about 7.5, so the pH is very very similar to theirs, and they also developed the white dots.

[TURQ64]

I'm running on pirated connections in a marina, so I've been brief....
1. Ich can kill fish and never be on a Discus' fin
2. Although adult ectoparasites don't multiply at high temps, the divided cysts can do well in the temps of average tanks. Ph also factors in to the equation.
3. Changinging tanks will produce a slime reaction in most Discus, with whitish appearing areas,but...tiny serrated edges are signs of bacteria...
once again, best of luck..Too many cooks in this sauce for me...g'night

[strawberryblonde]

I'm not sure where to post at this point, on this thread or on the disease thread, but what the heck, I'm here so here goes. =)

You mentioned RO water. Are you using 100% RO on your discus tank? RO isn't really necessary with discus unless you have really bad tap water. High pH also isn't a problem unless it's super high and super hard. Mine is a lot higher than yours and my discus have been growing like weeds in it, so don't worry about trying to change it, ok?

I think you guys already got the word about water changes, right? Discus are considered by many to be difficult fish to keep and it's because they need a lot more fresh water than most tropical species. A rule of thumb is, the younger the discus, the more water and the more often you need to change it.

Fer instance, mine were 4" when I bought them and I was doing 60% changes in the morning and 80% at night till my bio-load caught up. After that I did 60-80% once a day with a LOT of careful vacuuming since I had substrate back then.

Some people on these boards report great success with feeding brine shrimp and bloodworms to their growing discus, but my own experience wasn't nearly as good. Brine shrimp are mostly roughage, not nutrition and bloodworms are about on the same level. They are great as treats now and then, but not good for long term growth.

Frozen beefheart is awesome (and they'll eat it right out of your hands) and so are ON discus flakes and Al's FDBW. Pellets are great too if you can get your discus to eat them. Feed a good variety 5-6 times a day and your discus will grow out nicely.

Ok, so those are the basics to get you started. There's a lot more reading and research that you can do on these forums to help yourselves get up to speed on discus keeping.

As far as your two discus go, they really don't look very healthy. It's awesome that they're eating well, but till they lose those spots, exhibit normal colors and lose the knife thin foreheads they aren't out of the woods. the brownish colored one looks to be younger and in better shape than the turq variety. The turq (that's what I'm calling him for now till he lightens up and we can see what he actually is) is older, has become stunted by either disease or malnutrition and is going to need a lot of TLC in order to get him back to good health.

I know this isn't the kind of result you were hoping for when you bought your fish, and I'm sorry this thread hasn't been more positive about them. I hate seeing people taken advantage of by breeders who know they are selling low quality fish. Chalk it all up to a learning experience though, stick around, read and research, ok?

[kingkong954]

We're using full RO/DI -- not just RO; if clean fresh water is a priority, then 0ppm TDS is a good start. We live very close to the water treatment plants, and I don't trust the utilities to not push out extra chloromines from time to time, so I see the RO/DI as a precaution against that risk. We've had people in the community lose whole tanks because of that practice.

Re: food; they aren't taking to processed foods yet. We've tried some NLS in different diameters as well as Tetra Color Tropical Granules. I think its a texture issue for now, so I'm hoping the softer flakes (once they arrive) help alleviate that. I dont know if we're up to the task of making our own prepared food, though that is something I used to do that when I kept Anthias in the reef.

Their overall color (that is, their dark shade) is not really a concern of ours at this point. Our research has shown that a darkening is quite common when dealing with dark surroundings. We have the large dark drift wood, black background, and black substrate. See this post as an example of this behavior: plantedtank.net/forums/1431921-post15.html

The darker stunted one is definitely a bad specimen, but at the time we didn't know of any alternative sources (except online) in the area. That was before we discovered another breeder (which we drove 2hours round trip to see) who appears to know what they are doing, and have been raising and breeding discus for some 30 years; that is where the slightly larger red. turquoise came from. This is their show tank lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N1YGS8gFT6s/TmAUANNNj2I/AAAAAAAAAV8/KI6S-mD85DM/s1024/1000000410.JPG and another pic of some of their smaller specifics (not yet for sale): lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zsLqCnG9TUI/TmAT-6rTTBI/AAAAAAAAAV4/3Ia3zNePynk/s1024/1000000412.JPG

Fishplant's picture looks to show the exact same symptom, but that's the only other example of it we've been able to find.

[strawberryblonde]

I'm confused now. LOL

The one I'm referring to as a turq is pic #2 in the first post. He's the one who is stunted and in very poor shape. Is he the one you bought from the breeder??? The first pic doesn't look at all like a turq strain to me, but I guess that would depend on the age and genetics. Maybe he'll develop more turq-like patterns with age.

I'm not an expert on RO or RO/DI water, so I'll leave that to someone else to handle. All I know for sure is that discus require some of the minerals found in tap water.

Since you feel the dark color is normal, I won't go there either except to say that I had a dark tank with eco complete substrate when I first got my discus and my red turq, red scribbelt and brilliant turq weren't nearly as dark as yours appear to be.

I think people are trying to help you with your fish, but that you are feeling defensive and aren't willing to listen. If you're sure it isn't ich, isn't bacterial and that they don't have any internal or external parasites, then all we can do is wish you luck and leave it be.

[walt3]

it almost looks like velvet. ??? good luck. im so sorry you are dealing with this. walt.

[TURQ64]

Fishplants photo is quite a bit different looking than yours....When in doubt for ectoparasites, the default switch is pp..

[Discus Origins]

Not sure where you guys went to find a breeder, I'm just down the road from you guys in Ocala but only keep wild discus at this time.

Keep the temp around 86F, add tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons and keep water quality high by doing frequent water changes. Just like many say you don't have to keep discus in RO water,you don't have to keep discus in tap water either. I like the pureness of RO water but add Discus Essentials to put back minerals they need. It's fine with reef because when you mix the salt into RO the minerals are added back. Not so with freshwater.

As for food, brine shrimp and bloodworms are not foods known for nutritional value. Need to get them on frozen food, quality flakes or live blackworms. Good luck with these guys!

[kingkong954]

I'm confused now. LOL

The one I'm referring to as a turq is pic #2 in the first post. He's the one who is stunted and in very poor shape. Is he the one you bought from the breeder??? The first pic doesn't look at all like a turq strain to me, but I guess that would depend on the age and genetics. Maybe he'll develop more turq-like patterns with age.

I'm not an expert on RO or RO/DI water, so I'll leave that to someone else to handle. All I know for sure is that discus require some of the minerals found in tap water.

Since you feel the dark color is normal, I won't go there either except to say that I had a dark tank with eco complete substrate when I first got my discus and my red turq, red scribbelt and brilliant turq weren't nearly as dark as yours appear to be.

I think people are trying to help you with your fish, but that you are feeling defensive and aren't willing to listen. If you're sure it isn't ich, isn't bacterial and that they don't have any internal or external parasites, then all we can do is wish you luck and leave it be.

Try to look at these pics -- they are better: d3f.org/2011/09/discus-dots/

#2 from the OP was from a LFS that is of dubious quality; its apparent to us now that he is stunted (disproportionate eyes, body symmetry issues). Again, we didnt think we had any alternatives locally at the time.

Re: defensiveness -- I am not dismissing all the things you think I am; however I am going to dismiss ich, regardless of what others may think on that subject. There are some folks here who are being helpful, and others who are not. I used to spend a lot of time on fish forums, so I am way over being "defensive". But I'm very used to a tendency by some on forums to batter and run away new comers to the hobby. I've spent most of my time over on reef-central, and I saw the same behavior time and time again so honestly, it's ok :)

As for the other items you mentioned: do you know of any bacteria, internal parasites, or external parasites that cause this? This is an honest question. I'm not being dismissive, but I'd love help in finding similar discussions or photos to help with the diagnosis. I'm not a fan of broad spectrum treatments when we don't yet know the cause.

If their behavior was lethargic, if they werent eating or passing food, then I would be more ready to run them off to a quarantine tank and begin treatment, but outside of Fishplants shared experience, no one seems to be suggesting something that has a lead (again, this isnt ich).

What is helpful in addressing these issues is to gather information and focus on the questions at hand. Sadly, making references to our lack of knowledge regarding discus lineage (someone said this in the other thread) and other snippy comments like that are just distractions and are what cause beginners to flee and run away from forums who have people genuinely trying to help, instead of sperg on the uninitiated.

I dont agree with Turq64 who thinks Fishplants photo is 'quite a bit different'. What I see in similarities are non-raised crisp white dots, of respectable density, and not appearing on fins. Identical to our symptoms. In fact, let me put their photo next to ours: 68610

Re: Walt / Velvet -- we haven't seen the fish exhibit scratching, appetite issues or lethargy [though I guess it could still be early], and I'm not seeing anything on the fins or gills. Also the dots do appear to a pretty sharp white, not yellowish. And overall, we don't see the gold velvet film [at least yet]. I'll keep an eye to see if that changes.

I think part of the problem were the first batch of photos. I'd think ich and velvet from those, too, but I hope the followup pictures ( d3f.org/2011/09/discus-dots/ ) give you a better appreciation of the dots themselves.

[kingkong954]

We're in Gainesville; the breeder was Fish-heads Aquatics ( maps.google.com/maps?q=Fish-Heads+Aquatics&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl )

I haven't seen these Kent lines of products before (R/O Right, Discuss Essentials). Pretty interesting. Will see if we have them available locally / do more research on them.


Not sure where you guys went to find a breeder, I'm just down the road from you guys in Ocala but only keep wild discus at this time.

Keep the temp around 86F, add tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons and keep water quality high by doing frequent water changes. Just like many say you don't have to keep discus in RO water,you don't have to keep discus in tap water either. I like the pureness of RO water but add Discus Essentials to put back minerals they need. It's fine with reef because when you mix the salt into RO the minerals are added back. Not so with freshwater.

As for food, brine shrimp and bloodworms are not foods known for nutritional value. Need to get them on frozen food, quality flakes or live blackworms. Good luck with these guys!

[Discus Origins]

Oh very cool, I know Gary and Rose over at Fish Heads. Good people. I'm not sure if Aquatropics carries discus products as they stopped carrying discus years ago but maybe check them out.

[kingkong954]

Oh very cool, I know Gary and Rose over at Fish Heads. Good people. I'm not sure if Aquatropics carries discus products as they stopped carrying discus years ago but maybe check them out.

I've got an email into Gary and Rose now with pics to see what they say. Aquatropics is where the deformed specimen came from :( so they must be carrying them again!

It was impressive watching Rose do a 50% W/C with just some tap water and conditioner and no aeration, temp. matching, etc. in the discuss tanks. The discus actually ran into the new water stream hoping there was food in it. Lots of energy in their fish, so I'm sure I can learn lots from their advice.

[Discus Origins]

Oh no, don't buy discus from Aquatropics....I meant for discus essentials

[kingkong954]

Oh no, don't buy discus from Aquatropics....

Let me fix this: don't buy any fish from Aquatopics.

I never used to touch their fish when I had the reef tank... I dont know what I was thinking this time.

[Discus Origins]

Well not going to go that far...the store used to be employed by knowledgeable staff that had lots of experience, each specializing in reef, African cichlids, South American fish. But being a college town they graduate and move on but were replaced with less and less capable staff. They still get livestock from same sources as years ago, just not taken care of like they should. Key to that place, get your stuff the day shipments come in, preferably still in the bags.