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gerrard00
09-01-2011, 05:09 PM
Well, I just posted about hitting my one year anniversary and suddenly I have a problem with one of my fish.


DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started


About a week or so ago, the fish in question went crazy during a water change and darted all over the tank. She scraped herself up and seemed to daze herself. After about 15 minutes she was basically back to normal. We chalked it up to the fact that she was being picked on constantly by another fish. That’s nothing new, the two have been going at it since I purchased them.

Yesterday, she had three or four darting episodes. Today she has had about five. She darts around in a little circle hitting into the tank walls, sponge filter and even the ground. Then she lays on top of the watersprite that floats at the top of my tank and gasps for air.

My four other discus are happy as clams and begging for food as we speak.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

She is somewhat dark, has one cloudy eye (I attributed it to a scape during the darting) and has started swimming at sideways at times. She's spending all of her time at the top of the tank.

She had been hiding a lot lately, but she’s always been more timid than my other fish.


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.


I have moved her to a hospital tank and added 1 tablespoon of kosher salt.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

Display tank:


72 gallon bowfront up and running for a year on 8/29. Three red pigeon blood discus and two blue turquoise discus, ranging in sizes from just over 5 inches to almost 7 inches. The fish in question is just over five inches long. I got them all about a year ago at 2.5 inches.

I also have two bn plecos and about 30 cardinal tetras.


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Daily 50% water changes. Sand substrate. Lightly planted.

No CO2.

I don't age my water and that’s not really an option for me.



6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____84

- ph _____6.6

- ammonia reading ____.25 (attributed to the use of safe)

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____.5

- well water ____

- municipal water ____X


7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No.


I treated for what I thought was Hex in the early days of the tank with Metro. I wasn’t sure what I was doing and I don’t think I even treated the tank correctly.

A few months later I had flashing and some gill closing, so I treated with prazipro. There was a definite improvement and I haven't had any gill closing since. I do have occasional (a few times a day) flashing.

I lost one discus a few months later during a treatment with PraziPro in my hospital tank. I was never able to determine the cause of death and there were no visible signs of what was wrong.

I have treated with angel plus de-worming flake twice. The last time was about three months ago.

My general philosophy is to avoid using medicine if I can. I just don't trust myself to deal with them. In this case, I'm considering medication just because she keeps darting around violently and I'm afraid that she'll hurt herself. Any advice you can offer is appreciated.

BTW, I have a stupid piece of driftwood that I got from the park in the display tank. It's been in there for months and still has white fungus growing on it. It will be out as soon as I can get an order in for some manzanita. The plan is early next week.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

gerrard00
09-01-2011, 06:56 PM
Since I posted, she has had four more episodes and was gasping at the top of the tank. I know that the shotgun approach isn't usually the best idea, but in desperation I treated the hospital tank with AP Quick Cure. No improvement so far.

YSS
09-01-2011, 07:48 PM
Unfortunately, darting is one of the mystery diseases. I've had that happen to me several times on almost everytime, I ended up losing the discus. At least for me, the disease didn't appear to be contagious, but others may have different experiences. Good luck. I hope she makes it.

Second Hand Pat
09-02-2011, 12:11 AM
Gerrard, I experienced exactly these symptoms and it was something internal. There is a thread called the "Very Suddenly Sick" which documents the whole experience. If you care to take a look start on page 21 or so. Andrew Soh suggested a treatment which did work (post 340) but it is a heavy duty metro treatment. My issues were across multiple tanks and lost several fish. There are many reasons for darting and hopefully the problem I had is not your problem.

These two videos show the symtoms


http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/?action=view&current=VIDEO0035.mp4

http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/?action=view&current=VIDEO0033.mp4

gerrard00
09-02-2011, 12:16 AM
I'll be honest, I was hoping your videos weren't going to be so spot on. The symptoms are exact. I'll go read through that thread. Ugh!

Second Hand Pat
09-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Sorry :(

Plumkin
09-02-2011, 04:49 AM
gasping for air it sounds like theres not enough oxygen? are you using an air-stone? they way their swimming maybe they have some infection / parasites in the intestines ? My angelfish had this a few of them did I feed them some medicine flake food my LFS had he said he used everclear in and not sure what elsa but maybe its worth a shot I use it on all my new fish to make sure if they are sick or have some parasites this will help them sooner then later. Hope I helped in some way

Good luck!

Brandon.

TURQ64
09-02-2011, 08:39 AM
You're in for a rough one here. Pat's thread has about all you need to progress, so there's little I can do, other than comment..Good luck with it, Gary

gerrard00
09-02-2011, 09:23 AM
Sorry :(

No need to feel sorry, your thread has been incredibly helpful. Thanks for directing me towards it.

Unfortunately, Hanna passed last night. I know I shouldn't name my fish, just for this reason, but it's hard not to.

I'll be honest, I'm starting to question whether the discus life is for me. I don't mind the water changes or the finicky palates, but it's rough for me every time I lose one. This was especially hard because she flopped around in pain for hours. I planned on culling her this morning if things hadn't improved, but it never got that far.

I'm not sure how to go forward. I'm really not up for an additional metro treatment, or other strong antibiotics. I think I'll probably go ahead and treat the display tank with the quick cure I have and just let things take their course. Right now, no one else is displaying symptoms. Well, there has been a little more hiding lately. I don't know.

I have to say, I'm really bummed that I posted a celebratory 1 year anniversary video on Tuesday and then lose a fish two days later. :(

gerrard00
09-02-2011, 09:25 AM
gasping for air it sounds like theres not enough oxygen? are you using an air-stone? they way their swimming maybe they have some infection / parasites in the intestines ? My angelfish had this a few of them did I feed them some medicine flake food my LFS had he said he used everclear in and not sure what elsa but maybe its worth a shot I use it on all my new fish to make sure if they are sick or have some parasites this will help them sooner then later. Hope I helped in some way

Good luck!

Brandon.

Thanks Brandon! She was the only one gasping, so I don't think oxygen is the problem. I do run two sponge filter in my tank with airstones.

gerrard00
09-02-2011, 09:25 AM
You're in for a rough one here. Pat's thread has about all you need to progress, so there's little I can do, other than comment..Good luck with it, Gary

Thanks Gary!

Second Hand Pat
09-02-2011, 09:57 AM
No need to feel sorry, your thread has been incredibly helpful. Thanks for directing me towards it.

Unfortunately, Hanna passed last night. I know I shouldn't name my fish, just for this reason, but it's hard not to.

I'll be honest, I'm starting to question whether the discus life is for me. I don't mind the water changes or the finicky palates, but it's rough for me every time I lose one. This was especially hard because she flopped around in pain for hours. I planned on culling her this morning if things hadn't improved, but it never got that far.

I'm not sure how to go forward. I'm really not up for an additional metro treatment, or other strong antibiotics. I think I'll probably go ahead and treat the display tank with the quick cure I have and just let things take their course. Right now, no one else is displaying symptoms. Well, there has been a little more hiding lately. I don't know.

I have to say, I'm really bummed that I posted a celebratory 1 year anniversary video on Tuesday and then lose a fish two days later. :(

Really sorry about Hanna. Let's hope this is a one time event but the hiding does not sound good. I came close to culling the QT crew which were the most affected but today, I am so glad I didn't. I was going to post "additional learns learned" but will hold off for now.

Pat

YSS
09-02-2011, 01:52 PM
I have to say, I'm really bummed that I posted a celebratory 1 year anniversary video on Tuesday and then lose a fish two days later. :(

I know how this feels. When I first started keeping discus, whenever I think I am doing well and post on the forum and pictures, I would immediately have darters or other problems. This has happened to me several times. It was like jinxing myself over and over again. So after a few times, I stopped posting fearing what might happen again. However, I think I am finally over (knock on wood) that stage. I posted severaltims in the last year and my fish didn't go sick on me. Hang in there.

gerrard00
09-30-2011, 11:47 AM
Hey guys, just a quick follow up. I went through a little funk, but I went ahead and treated with Metro purchased from Jehmco and Metro Flakes from Angel Plus. I wasn't sure how to convert the dosing schedule that Andrew Soh recommended to work with the flakes, so I just followed the directions as listed on the packages. In the end, it was a six day treatment with daily 50% waterchanges. I haven't noticed any difference in the fish, either positive or negative, but at least I did what I can to prevent future darters. Unfortunately, my remaining turq is still hiding a lot. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

I was down for a bit, but now I'm saving up for two new fish. I'm going to observe my guys for about another month and then just go for it.

Coffee1stLife2nd
09-30-2011, 12:40 PM
sorry to hear about Hanna...and new to discus myself hearing stuff like this makes it alittle scary... Again i am verry sorry, but for us newest newbies it is also good for us to hear these stories so we have a better understanding of the ups and downs of being discus owners... Thank You for your experience ....Tina

Skip
09-30-2011, 01:38 PM
i have never heard of SAFE causing ammonia readings..

DiscusBR
09-30-2011, 10:10 PM
i have never heard of SAFE causing ammonia readings..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?61003-*****How-to-test-for-ammonia-when-you-use-Prime*****

However, the test kits I have used never caused amonia readings.

DiscusBR
09-30-2011, 11:00 PM
Hey guys, just a quick follow up. I went through a little funk, but I went ahead and treated with Metro purchased from Jehmco and Metro Flakes from Angel Plus. I wasn't sure how to convert the dosing schedule that Andrew Soh recommended to work with the flakes, so I just followed the directions as listed on the packages. In the end, it was a six day treatment with daily 50% waterchanges. I haven't noticed any difference in the fish, either positive or negative, but at least I did what I can to prevent future darters. Unfortunately, my remaining turq is still hiding a lot. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

I was down for a bit, but now I'm saving up for two new fish. I'm going to observe my guys for about another month and then just go for it.

Gerrard, I am sorry for your loss. I know how you feel. I also lost a fish after it started darting. It was a horrible death (it got ick after I made a mistake during WC; did not notice heater was not working and added cold water to the tank). I hope your other fish will be fine after the Metro treatment.

discusmurderer
09-30-2011, 11:17 PM
Hi Gerrard00, I have had the same probs, and i got my fish tested by a vet and it showed that they had (Cryptobia Iubulans) its a highly contagious disease and all your fish look healthy as ever and you will never know who has it and when the next victim will exibit signs by spinning in circles. So to be sure get your fish to the vet on ice if its dead or living ,you will have to sacrifice one to know if they all have cryptobia. Sorry to be the one bearing bad news!

Check all my post and u will see of my woes from the start.

gerrard00
10-05-2011, 12:49 PM
I didn't mean to suggest that SAFE caused the readings, only that the API test kits I use to measure ammonia can't detect the difference between chloramines treated with SAFE and normally occuring ammonia. I see DiscusBR has posted the link where I learned about that issue.

gerrard00
10-05-2011, 12:53 PM
Hi Gerrard00, I have had the same probs, and i got my fish tested by a vet and it showed that they had (Cryptobia Iubulans) its a highly contagious disease and all your fish look healthy as ever and you will never know who has it and when the next victim will exibit signs by spinning in circles. So to be sure get your fish to the vet on ice if its dead or living ,you will have to sacrifice one to know if they all have cryptobia. Sorry to be the one bearing bad news!

Check all my post and u will see of my woes from the start.

Thanks for the info. So far it's been more than a month and I've had no other signs of illness. Can you tell me how long you've gone between deaths?

My mother in law has offered to buy us two replacement fish, but I'm very hesitant to order new guys who may only live for the four weeks when they are in the QT tank and then bam they get infected when moved to the display tank. I probably should sacrifice one of my guys to have a vet test for the parasite you mentioned, but I'm too emotionally attached.